Australian Politics Forum - the meaning of freedom

He Man Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 1159 Gender:	Re: the meaning of freedom Reply #195 - Oct 31^st, 2015 at 3:11pm How on earth can a Muhammad caricature be racist. ?
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polite_gandalf Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 20027 Canberra Gender:	Re: the meaning of freedom Reply #196 - Oct 31^st, 2015 at 3:13pm freediver wrote on Oct 23^rd, 2015 at 8:06pm: I didn't realise you were denying it. I've only been asking you to clarify this 'changing my mind' business for about the last 10 pages. Any progress on that front yet FD?
Back to top	A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said: Quote: Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms. IP Logged

freediver

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Re: the meaning of freedom
Reply #197 - Oct 31^st, 2015 at 10:44pm

Here's an example for you:

polite_gandalf wrote on May 25^th, 2013 at 10:17pm:

freediver wrote on May 25^th, 2013 at 9:27pm:

Self censorship is a reasonable course of action?

Absolutely. Its called being responsible gatekeepers of the infomation available. News rooms have to make these calls all the time - deciding whether its responsible to potentially inflame volatile relationships between groups by publishing contentious material.

freediver wrote on May 25^th, 2013 at 9:27pm:

Publishing the Muhammed cartoons would not stoke the "anti Muslim flames".

I disagree. The bomb in the turban cartoon made pretty clear insinuations about the entire muslim community.

Quote:

Whether or not I consider caricatures of Muhammad racist is not the question here.

Should I start another thread so it can be the question?

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People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.

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Yadda

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Re: the meaning of freedom
Reply #198 - Nov 1^st, 2015 at 9:07am

polite_gandalf wrote on May 25^th, 2013 at 10:17pm:

freediver wrote on May 25^th, 2013 at 9:27pm:

Self censorship is a reasonable course of action?

Absolutely. Its called being responsible gatekeepers of the infomation available. News rooms have to make these calls all the time - deciding whether its responsible to potentially inflame volatile relationships between groups by publishing contentious material.

gandalf,

QUESTION;
Should a moslem be expected to self censor,

and refrain from expressing his own criminal incitement

, whenever a moslem is offended by the secular views/opinions of someone who is not a moslem ?

FOR EXAMPLE;

IMAGE....

"Behead those who insult ISLAM"

My own opinion is that;
THIS INCITEMENT TO MURDER - ON DISPLAY, ON A SYDNEY STREET - MUST BE DEEMED TO BE ABHORRENT AND UNLAWFUL BEHAVIOUR, by every individual who wants to reside within every Western secular society.

The image above depicts a protest by moslems - IN AUSTRALIA - on the streets of Sydney from Hyde Park to George Streets, September 15, 2012

This protest by moslems, is in response to a person on another planet, a person on another continent, making a movie, which was deemed to be offensive, by 'the moslem'.

.

PROPOSITION;
gandalf is NOT saying that this display [in the image above] is either an appropriate or an acceptable response, by any moslem who is offended, by the expressed opinion(s) of someone who is not a moslem.

Please correct me, gandalf, if you believe that i am mis-representing your position on this issue.

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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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Yadda

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Re: the meaning of freedom
Reply #199 - Nov 1^st, 2015 at 9:26am

polite_gandalf wrote on May 25^th, 2013 at 10:17pm:

freediver wrote on May 25^th, 2013 at 9:27pm:

Publishing the Muhammed cartoons would not stoke the "anti Muslim flames".

I disagree.

The bomb in the turban cartoon made pretty clear insinuations about the entire muslim community.

gandalf,

Many would argue, that if 'the moslem' wants to live within a majority secular society [and if 'the moslem' wants to enjoy all of the benefits and freedoms that the majority secular 'environment' bestows upon him - and his community], then the moslem must choose to accept the standards of acceptance and tolerance, and freedom of expression, which prevails within that secular society.

If the moslem cannot do that, if 'the moslem' [as a group] wants to have a 'hissy fit', every time that someone says something which conflicts with his own worldview, then 'the moslem' should not remain, and imo, 'the moslem' [as a group] should not be permitted to remain in that society, imo.

If we [as individuals] cannot express how we feel, without choosing to visit violence [or choosing to express the incitement of violence] upon another individual, then there is something wrong with our worldview, imo.

Don't you agree, gandalf ?

In zoos around the world, zoo managers and keepers have come to the conclusion that creatures wolves [and other predators] must be kept in enclosures, by themselves, with their own kind.

Discussion: Sam Harris and Maajid Nawaz

http://www.abc.net.au/lateline/content/2015/s4341076.htm

Quote:

SAM HARRIS:
.....we need to recognise that we are inching our way towards a global civil society and that free speech simply has to win and that self-censorship that we have all practised after the Danish cartoon controversy or even before after Salman Rushdie's Satanic Verses, a kind of self censorship that has been urged upon us by liberals for the most part, on the one hand, but then also our own religion demagogues who are worried about their own cases of blasphemy on the other, that's - it's a dead end.

It's a cul-de-sac ethically and politically that we have to find our way out of and we have to treat the Muslim community worldwide as adults who have to tolerate satire and have to tolerate free speech and have to tolerate pluralism and human rights.

And we have to oblige them with every tool at our disposal, whether it's economic or whether it's military or whether it's a matter of police enforcement.

It depends at what level of society we're encountering this problem.

But these principles have to be non-negotiable and we really are not even at the starting line in our liberal discourse about this and that's what my collaboration with Maajid is hoping to kindle in us, a - an understanding of what the first step forward is.

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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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polite_gandalf Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 20027 Canberra Gender:	Re: the meaning of freedom Reply #200 - Nov 1^st, 2015 at 9:37am You are correct Yadda - incitement to violence should (and is) unlawful. That is quite a separate issue to what I was talking about. Not many people defend the right to incite violence. FD probably does.
Back to top	A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said: Quote: Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms. IP Logged

Yadda

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Re: the meaning of freedom
Reply #201 - Nov 1^st, 2015 at 9:59am

polite_gandalf wrote on Nov 1^st, 2015 at 9:37am:

You are correct Yadda - incitement to violence should (and is) unlawful. That is quite a separate issue to what I was talking about. Not many people defend the right to incite violence.

FD probably does.

I do not agree.

FD is simply a very liberal person,    ...and the owner of a public forum dedicated to debate and discussion of topical issues.

Dictionary;
liberal = =
1 respectful and accepting of behaviour or opinions different from one’s own; open to new ideas.    (of a society, law, etc.) favourable to individual rights and freedoms.    [Theology] regarding many traditional beliefs as dispensable, invalidated by modern thought, or liable to change.
2 (in a political context) favouring individual liberty, free trade, and moderate political and social reform.
3 (of education) concerned with broadening general knowledge and experience.

That cannot be said of a moslem,    ....not of any moslem, imo.

n.b.
I'm describing a moslem who really is a moslem [openly, candidly].

Dictionary;
Muslim = = a follower of Islam.

.

Quote:

"[a respected moslem community spokesman has] called on Australian Muslims to spurn secular democracy and Western notions of moderate Islam...

...[moslems in Australia were told] that democracy is "haram" (forbidden) for Muslims, whose political engagement should be be based purely on Islamic law.

"We must adhere to Islam and Islam alone," Mr Hanif [said]"

http://www.jihadwatch.org/2010/07/australia-members-of-hizb-ut-tahrir-say-countr...

.

"....Lo! Allah is an enemy to those who reject Faith."
Koran 2.98

"....those who reject Allah have no protector."
Koran 47.008
v. 8-11

"Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued. "
Koran 9.29

"There is for you an excellent example (to follow) in Abraham and those with him, when they said to their people: "We are clear of you and of whatever ye worship besides Allah: we have rejected you, and there has arisen, between us and you, enmity and hatred for ever,- unless ye believe in Allah and Him alone"....."
Koran 60:4

.

"Fighting [against disbelievers] is prescribed for you, and [if] ye dislike it.....Allah knoweth, and ye know not."
Koran 2.216

"O ye who believe! Fight those of the disbelievers who are near to you, and let them find harshness in you, and know that Allah is with those who keep their duty (unto Him)."
Koran 9.123

"Allah hath purchased of the believers their persons and their goods; for theirs (in return) is the garden (of Paradise): they fight in His cause, and slay and are slain:...."
Koran 9.111

.

Spokesmen for ISLAM will tell anyone who will listen;

THAT IT IS WRONG, AND THAT IT IS TOTALLY AGAINST ISLAMIC LAW, TO KILL INNOCENT PEOPLE.

Please watch this YT...
A UK moslem community leader, speaking in the wake of the London 7/7 bombing;

Quote:

YT

KILLING OF NON-MUSLIMS IS LEGITIMATE

"...when we say innocent people, we mean moslems."

"....[not accepting ISLAM] is a crime against God."
"...If you are a non-moslem, then you are guilty of not believing in God."
"...as a moslem....i must have hatred towards everything which is non-ISLAM."
"...[moslems] allegiance is always with the moslems, so i will never condemn a moslem for what he does."
"...Britain has always been Dar al Harb [the Land of War]"
"...no, i could never condemn a moslem brother, i would never condemn a moslem brother. I will always stand with my moslem brother....whether he is an oppresser or the oppressed."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=maHSOB2RFm4

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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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freediver

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Re: the meaning of freedom
Reply #202 - Nov 7^th, 2015 at 10:09am

freediver wrote on Oct 31^st, 2015 at 10:44pm:

Here's an example for you:

polite_gandalf wrote on May 25^th, 2013 at 10:17pm:

freediver wrote on May 25^th, 2013 at 9:27pm:

Self censorship is a reasonable course of action?

Absolutely. Its called being responsible gatekeepers of the infomation available. News rooms have to make these calls all the time - deciding whether its responsible to potentially inflame volatile relationships between groups by publishing contentious material.

freediver wrote on May 25^th, 2013 at 9:27pm:

Publishing the Muhammed cartoons would not stoke the "anti Muslim flames".

I disagree. The bomb in the turban cartoon made pretty clear insinuations about the entire muslim community.

Gandalf have you changed your mind on this, or is it just a different spin on the same thing?

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People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.

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polite_gandalf

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Re: the meaning of freedom
Reply #203 - Nov 7^th, 2015 at 10:24am

Splitting hairs. We were talking about a different thing, even though the same term is being used.

I made it very clear what I meant - newsrooms have to decide for themselves what they should and shouldn't publish. If they decide not to stoke the flames, then good for them - just like if someone decides not to be a dick. What it means is people deciding not to express something because they conclude by themselves that it is wrong to express it. What is wrong in both cases is if they sincerely feel that they should express something but feel pressured not to by outside forces. This is something that you support, not me. Clearly this is something you feel uneasy about which is why you feel the need to play these silly games.

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 49264 At my desk.	Re: the meaning of freedom Reply #204 - Nov 7^th, 2015 at 10:41am So it is just a different spin on the same thing? You would still happily call for self censorship?
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Karnal Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 96250 Gender:	Re: the meaning of freedom Reply #205 - Nov 7^th, 2015 at 12:02pm How can you call for self censorship? I’m curious.
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polite_gandalf

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Re: the meaning of freedom
Reply #206 - Nov 7^th, 2015 at 7:52pm

Karnal wrote on Nov 7^th, 2015 at 12:02pm:

How can you call for self censorship?

I’m curious.

Well put it this way - FD thinks that in the interests of freedom, people should be swayed by what the terrorists think when expressing themselves. Specifically, that you shouldn't say that Muhammad cartoons are wrong when the terrorists think the same.

I'm struggling to think of a more clear-cut call for self censorship than this.

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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He Man Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 1159 Gender:	Re: the meaning of freedom Reply #207 - Nov 7^th, 2015 at 7:54pm You seem to struggle a lot with islam.
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Karnal Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 96250 Gender:	Re: the meaning of freedom Reply #208 - Nov 7^th, 2015 at 8:44pm polite_gandalf wrote on Nov 7^th, 2015 at 7:52pm: I'm struggling to think of a more clear-cut call for self censorship than this. Yes, but that's censorship. Self censorship is when you do it yourself.
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He Man Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 1159 Gender:	Re: the meaning of freedom Reply #209 - Nov 7^th, 2015 at 8:59pm Karnal wrote on Nov 7^th, 2015 at 8:44pm: polite_gandalf wrote on Nov 7^th, 2015 at 7:52pm: I'm struggling to think of a more clear-cut call for self censorship than this. Yes, but that's censorship. Self censorship is when you do it yourself. No its not.
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