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the meaning of freedom (Read 38680 times)
Karnal
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Re: the meaning of freedom
Reply #285 - Nov 28th, 2015 at 11:17pm
 
polite_gandalf wrote on Nov 27th, 2015 at 6:57pm:
Soren wrote on Nov 27th, 2015 at 4:49pm:
One man's freedom of speech is another's 'abuse'.


No S, they are not mutually exclusive.

abuse is still abuse - regardless of whether its your right to say it or not.


It’s only abuse if you disagree with the old boy, G. If you do this, you’re tendentious, mendacious, and an all-round rotter.

We must all agree with the old boy. He’s the only one who has the right to not be offended.
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polite_gandalf
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Re: the meaning of freedom
Reply #286 - Nov 29th, 2015 at 7:16am
 
Soren wrote on Nov 27th, 2015 at 4:49pm:
polite_gandalf wrote on Nov 27th, 2015 at 11:54am:
- "merely" avoiding having your head hacked off - is indeed self censorship, *IF* you otherwise believe expressing your view is a right and worthwhile thing to do - whether its because they have a genuine desire to stimulate a constructive debate through controversy, or whether they're just a dick who have no qualms with being a dick. A bit like if Soren suddenly refrained from posting personal abuse if he was convinced that doing so would earn himself a permanent ban - since we all know he sees nothing inherently wrong with hurling abuse.





One man's freedom of speech is another's 'abuse'.

I have never, ever, EVER abused an intelligent, constructive debater. Not once. It just would not ever occur to me to do so.

The only people I ever call out are the unintelligent, tendentious, mendacious, insincere and snivelling idiots. Gweg, PB, Gweens-Win, a few others who change IDs too often to keep track of.


slight correction - the only people you call out are  unintelligent, tendentious, mendacious, insincere and snivelling idiots who oppose your worldview on Islam/multiculturalism

I mean you clearly have  disdain for moses' argument about the genetically inferior muslim - while doing the usual tiptoeing to ensure you don't actually criticise him directly.

But whats trully hilarious about this "I'll call out the mendacious, unintelligent snivelling idiots" is that any discussion on Islam has, in the last few months, become completely flooded by the spam of one person with his multiple sock accounts, who has made it his mission in life to troll this board to death, literally - and on 3 occassions so far, has actually brought the forum down with malicious attacks. He is pretty much the reason I don't frequent here as much as I used to. But no, clearly its the greggery's and Karnals who are the real problem here  Tongue
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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:
Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.
 
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moses
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Re: the meaning of freedom
Reply #287 - Nov 29th, 2015 at 1:40pm
 
gandalf wrote:
Quote:
I mean you clearly have  disdain for moses' argument about the genetically inferior muslim - while doing the usual tiptoeing to ensure you don't actually criticise him directly.



Muslim Inbreeding: Impacts on intelligence, sanity, health and society
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Karnal
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Re: the meaning of freedom
Reply #288 - Nov 29th, 2015 at 4:01pm
 
moses wrote on Nov 29th, 2015 at 1:40pm:
gandalf wrote:
Quote:
I mean you clearly have  disdain for moses' argument about the genetically inferior muslim - while doing the usual tiptoeing to ensure you don't actually criticise him directly.



Muslim Inbreeding: Impacts on intelligence, sanity, health and society


That’s right, Moses. The old boy calls this correlation not causation.

Do you believe him?
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Soren
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Re: the meaning of freedom
Reply #289 - Nov 30th, 2015 at 10:38am
 
polite_gandalf wrote on Nov 28th, 2015 at 1:49pm:
Soren, I fully understand that you have a rock-solid case for insisting that *YOUR* criticism of Islam is not racist.

My question was about moses. I am not inbred, nor are any of the muslims I know. I also know from my education and qualifications that I do not have any sort of intellectual retardation that moses ascribes on muslims. Yet he would lump me and every muslim on the face of the earth into the same basket of genetic inferiors: a specific subset of humans who are mentally retarded due to inbreeding. For him, he literally can't see any other explanation for why people would be so stupid as to believe the tenets of Islam.

You come here day in day out mocking people for suggesting anti-Islam sentiment could ever have a racist element. As far as I'm concerned, this is a clear cut case of racism: prejudice on the basis of a perceived genetic inferiority - combined with outgroup homegeneity (all muslims are like this).

You can't possibly claim with a straight face that there is no anti-Islam sentiment that is racist.


Except Islam is not a race.

It's a choice.

Try again. 

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Soren
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Re: the meaning of freedom
Reply #290 - Nov 30th, 2015 at 10:42am
 
polite_gandalf wrote on Nov 29th, 2015 at 7:16am:
greggery's and Karnals



Ah, my educated and qualified Muslim interlocutor, you make another category mistake - these two clowns are wrong just about everything - so their being wrong about Islam is not a unique and isolated instance of their stupidity. Their stupidity has nuffin' to wiv Islam, to coin a phrase.




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Karnal
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Re: the meaning of freedom
Reply #291 - Nov 30th, 2015 at 11:07am
 
Soren wrote on Nov 30th, 2015 at 10:38am:
polite_gandalf wrote on Nov 28th, 2015 at 1:49pm:
Soren, I fully understand that you have a rock-solid case for insisting that *YOUR* criticism of Islam is not racist.

My question was about moses. I am not inbred, nor are any of the muslims I know. I also know from my education and qualifications that I do not have any sort of intellectual retardation that moses ascribes on muslims. Yet he would lump me and every muslim on the face of the earth into the same basket of genetic inferiors: a specific subset of humans who are mentally retarded due to inbreeding. For him, he literally can't see any other explanation for why people would be so stupid as to believe the tenets of Islam.

You come here day in day out mocking people for suggesting anti-Islam sentiment could ever have a racist element. As far as I'm concerned, this is a clear cut case of racism: prejudice on the basis of a perceived genetic inferiority - combined with outgroup homegeneity (all muslims are like this).

You can't possibly claim with a straight face that there is no anti-Islam sentiment that is racist.


Except Islam is not a race.

It's a choice.

Try again. 



Oh, old boy. You and I both know your post Sept 11 focus on the Muselman is based solely on race. Your issue with the Muselman is that he's uppity. Prior to the Muselman, you had a few banana republic dictators to moan about, but nothing much. The Muselman is your new eternal enemy because he dares to fight back.

You hate the Muselman because he's tinted. Always, absolutely, never ever.
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polite_gandalf
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Re: the meaning of freedom
Reply #292 - Nov 30th, 2015 at 11:20am
 
Soren wrote on Nov 30th, 2015 at 10:38am:
Except Islam is not a race.

It's a choice.

Try again. 


Moses believes that muslims are in a special category of genetic degenerates - due to their inbreeding. They believe what they believe because of this genetic degeneracy. From that point of view, Islam can hardly be considered a choice.

Moses' argument is a racialist argument by anyone's definition of the word.

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:
Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.
 
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Soren
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Re: the meaning of freedom
Reply #293 - Nov 30th, 2015 at 11:39am
 
polite_gandalf wrote on Nov 30th, 2015 at 11:20am:
Soren wrote on Nov 30th, 2015 at 10:38am:
Except Islam is not a race.

It's a choice.

Try again. 


Moses believes that muslims are in a special category of genetic degenerates - due to their inbreeding. They believe what they believe because of this genetic degeneracy. From that point of view, Islam can hardly be considered a choice.

Moses' argument is a racialist argument by anyone's definition of the word.


Jehowah's Witnesses refuse blood transfusions and so proportionally more of them die as a consequence of not receiving life saving blood transfusions due to their choice of refusing it.  But nobody would call them a race on account of their chosen beliefs.


Muslims want to claim every kind of victim status even as they are the main perpetrators of bloody mayhem around the world. But Muslims are not a race. Islam is a political ideology and a religion but not a race just as Christianity is not a race.

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Soren
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Re: the meaning of freedom
Reply #294 - Nov 30th, 2015 at 12:29pm
 
Karnal wrote on Nov 30th, 2015 at 11:07am:
Soren wrote on Nov 30th, 2015 at 10:38am:
polite_gandalf wrote on Nov 28th, 2015 at 1:49pm:
Soren, I fully understand that you have a rock-solid case for insisting that *YOUR* criticism of Islam is not racist.

My question was about moses. I am not inbred, nor are any of the muslims I know. I also know from my education and qualifications that I do not have any sort of intellectual retardation that moses ascribes on muslims. Yet he would lump me and every muslim on the face of the earth into the same basket of genetic inferiors: a specific subset of humans who are mentally retarded due to inbreeding. For him, he literally can't see any other explanation for why people would be so stupid as to believe the tenets of Islam.

You come here day in day out mocking people for suggesting anti-Islam sentiment could ever have a racist element. As far as I'm concerned, this is a clear cut case of racism: prejudice on the basis of a perceived genetic inferiority - combined with outgroup homegeneity (all muslims are like this).

You can't possibly claim with a straight face that there is no anti-Islam sentiment that is racist.


Except Islam is not a race.

It's a choice.

Try again. 



Oh, old boy. You and I both know your post Sept 11 focus on the Muselman is based solely on race.



You make no sense as usual.

Believing in Islam is not something you are born with, PB. Sept 11 was a political act, not a racial one.


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polite_gandalf
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Re: the meaning of freedom
Reply #295 - Nov 30th, 2015 at 12:58pm
 
The fact that Islam and muslims are not racial entities doesn't mean that criticism of Islam and muslims can never be a form of racism Soren.

Quote:
Racism against Muslim migrants to Europe, Australia and North America has shifted ground in the opposite direction, with biological racism's focus on skin-colour and physical difference being supplanted by cultural and religious racism. Although coded expressions of biological racism have maintained a background presence in both public and private discourse, and occasionally erupt at full strength, there is a broad consensus around the condemnation of openly expressed racism based on physical or alleged genetic difference.

However, racism based on cultural and/or religious difference continues to stigmatise many of the same individuals and communities who were once the target of biological racism. Muslims have provided a focal point in the transition in racialised language that has been variously described as a transition from "colour" to "cultural" racism, from "Old" to "New" racism, or as the (re)emergence of religious racism in the form of Islamophobia. While some acknowledge the "variation" between these different forms of racism, they also "emphasize how the two logics of racism exist side by side, and ... are both reproduced through a similar racialization process."


http://www.abc.net.au/religion/articles/2015/05/28/4244447.htm

When we talk about racism, we are essentially talking about a process by which a distinct cultural or ethnic "out-group" becomes homogenised through negative stereotypes, and is constructed specifically to stand apart and be contrasted with the "ingroup" (the group the racist feels he belongs to). It is a very well documented social and cognitive phenomenon that we just happen to call "racism" - even though it is not strictly correct etymologically.
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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:
Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.
 
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Karnal
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Re: the meaning of freedom
Reply #296 - Nov 30th, 2015 at 1:12pm
 
Soren wrote on Nov 30th, 2015 at 12:29pm:
Karnal wrote on Nov 30th, 2015 at 11:07am:
Soren wrote on Nov 30th, 2015 at 10:38am:
polite_gandalf wrote on Nov 28th, 2015 at 1:49pm:
Soren, I fully understand that you have a rock-solid case for insisting that *YOUR* criticism of Islam is not racist.

My question was about moses. I am not inbred, nor are any of the muslims I know. I also know from my education and qualifications that I do not have any sort of intellectual retardation that moses ascribes on muslims. Yet he would lump me and every muslim on the face of the earth into the same basket of genetic inferiors: a specific subset of humans who are mentally retarded due to inbreeding. For him, he literally can't see any other explanation for why people would be so stupid as to believe the tenets of Islam.

You come here day in day out mocking people for suggesting anti-Islam sentiment could ever have a racist element. As far as I'm concerned, this is a clear cut case of racism: prejudice on the basis of a perceived genetic inferiority - combined with outgroup homegeneity (all muslims are like this).

You can't possibly claim with a straight face that there is no anti-Islam sentiment that is racist.


Except Islam is not a race.

It's a choice.

Try again. 



Oh, old boy. You and I both know your post Sept 11 focus on the Muselman is based solely on race.



You make no sense as usual.

Believing in Islam is not something you are born with, PB. Sept 11 was a political act, not a racial one.




Believing in the righteousness of US invasions is not something you're born with either, but in each and every case, you support this because the beneficiaries of such random acts of kindness are tinted.

White man's burden, innit.

Don't you play coy with us, old boy. We all know exactly what you think. Your daily wheeze about the Muselman is based solely on race. If the Muselman was a jolly white man, you'd be all yeah-but-no-but about it.

As every schoolboy knows.
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Soren
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Re: the meaning of freedom
Reply #297 - Nov 30th, 2015 at 1:14pm
 
It's "culturalism" or "ideologicalism", not racism.

But culturalism or ideologicalism don't make you victims because culture and ideology are choices while race is not.  You want to appropriate the victimhood angle of racism just as you want to appropriate the sexual orientation victimology in talk about homophobia and turn it to use by calling any opponent of Islam an Islamophobe.

Muslims will do everything to make it out as if being Muslim wasn't a choice and as if Islam isn't the way it is because Muslims have make it the way it is.

Starting with the Miff-ti, it's always someone else's fault that Islam is used to justify bloody mayhem.  You want to talk about everyone else and how terrible they are as long as we don't have to face what Muslims have made of Islam and what Islam has made of Muslims.



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Soren
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Re: the meaning of freedom
Reply #298 - Nov 30th, 2015 at 1:17pm
 
Karnal wrote on Nov 30th, 2015 at 1:12pm:
Believing in the righteousness of US invasions is not something you're born with either, but in each and every case, you support this because the beneficiaries of such random acts of kindness are tinted.

White man's burden, innit.

Don't you play coy with us, old boy. We all know exactly what you think. Your daily wheeze about the Muselman is based solely on race. If the Muselman was a jolly white man, you'd be all yeah-but-no-but about it.

As every schoolboy knows.

You can make up any stupid nonsense, PB, but you cannot make Islam a race.

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Karnal
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Re: the meaning of freedom
Reply #299 - Nov 30th, 2015 at 1:28pm
 
polite_gandalf wrote on Nov 30th, 2015 at 12:58pm:
The fact that Islam and muslims are not racial entities doesn't mean that criticism of Islam and muslims can never be a form of racism Soren.

Quote:
Racism against Muslim migrants to Europe, Australia and North America has shifted ground in the opposite direction, with biological racism's focus on skin-colour and physical difference being supplanted by cultural and religious racism. Although coded expressions of biological racism have maintained a background presence in both public and private discourse, and occasionally erupt at full strength, there is a broad consensus around the condemnation of openly expressed racism based on physical or alleged genetic difference.

However, racism based on cultural and/or religious difference continues to stigmatise many of the same individuals and communities who were once the target of biological racism. Muslims have provided a focal point in the transition in racialised language that has been variously described as a transition from "colour" to "cultural" racism, from "Old" to "New" racism, or as the (re)emergence of religious racism in the form of Islamophobia. While some acknowledge the "variation" between these different forms of racism, they also "emphasize how the two logics of racism exist side by side, and ... are both reproduced through a similar racialization process."


http://www.abc.net.au/religion/articles/2015/05/28/4244447.htm

When we talk about racism, we are essentially talking about a process by which a distinct cultural or ethnic "out-group" becomes homogenised through negative stereotypes, and is constructed specifically to stand apart and be contrasted with the "ingroup" (the group the racist feels he belongs to). It is a very well documented social and cognitive phenomenon that we just happen to call "racism" - even though it is not strictly correct etymologically. 


The Irish weren't a racial entity either, but they were continually subject to racism. No blacks, no dogs, no Irish.

Modern racism is more about class than anything else. As developed countries have outsourced their proletariat classes to the developing world, class has inextricably connected to race. "Country shoppers" are not so much despised for their race, but their willingness to rise above their station. The developed countries have become bastions of lower middle class exclusivity. The fear that they'll come in and take our jobs goes back to the birth of unionism in Australia - the original population surge that occurred in the mid 19th century during the gold rushes. 

Modern racism is about keeping the darkies in their place. The inferior "culture" the old boy rails against is about class just as much as it's about race. The old boy has no problem with the tinted races as long as they're kept safely away from us.

And God forbid they should jump up and down and complain about being invaded - that's ingratitude.

The old boy will agree completely with this, he always does. He usually goes a step further and recommends a jolly good carpetbombing and a return to colonialism - white man's burden.

What the old boy fails to remember, time and time again, is that the tinted races kicked the colonialists out.
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