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Baronvonrort

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Re: Guns
Reply #135 - Sep 11^th, 2015 at 7:36pm

mariacostel wrote on Sep 11^th, 2015 at 7:31pm:

Baronvonrort wrote on Sep 11^th, 2015 at 7:28pm:

mariacostel wrote on Sep 11^th, 2015 at 7:04pm:

Baronvonrort wrote on Sep 11^th, 2015 at 6:55pm:

mariacostel wrote on Sep 11^th, 2015 at 6:35pm:

And we are back in Redneck Wonderland.

If a lunatic goes into a school to kill kids what is the difference if he is armed with a brick or a gun? Since I can't trust you with coming up with the answer on your own I will provide it. With the gun we are talking perhaps as many as 50. With a brick, probably one, maybe two, possibly none.

Intent is the same - murderous rage. That we cannot easily stop. But we can stop them having weapons to increase the body count.

The rednecks are not the probem, the black firearm homicide is 7 times higher than white people, blacks are 13% of he population and account for over 50% of all homcides.
Gangsta rap is a bigger problem than rednecks.

Schools have been gun free zones since the 1980's,all the mass shooting tend to happen in gun free zones they never happen at NRA conventions or gun shows where people walk around armed.

The worst mass murderers in NSW,QLD and VIC lit fires to kill their innocent victims, they have a higher bodycounts than our second worst mass shooting.

That is supremely illogical. Mass shootings in schools do not occur because schools are gun-free zones. They occur because everywhere else IS a gun zone. This whole debate occurs because a woman was shot. There are many cities in the USA (gun central) where a single night without a gun death is considered a rarity and in some has not happened in decades.

The oddest thing is the notion that somehow, gun deaths are not related to guns, a bit like how car deaths are not in any way related to cars.

The movie theatre mass shootings were done in gun free zones, nutjobs prefer gun free zones because nobody can shoot back, the majority of these nutjobs shoot themselves when a good guy with a gun turns up.

There are many cities in the USA which have lower homicide rates than Australia despite the fact everyone is armed to the hilt with AR15's and pistols,like Plano Texas.
This guy tells all the facts hoplophobes ignore.

And yet 50,000 people die annually from guns. Is that not the stat which essentially debunks your point of how 'safe' guns are?

16,000 homicides in the USA with 11,000 of them done with guns.

Suicide is a separate issue, Phil Bolger was a friend of mine who lived in the USA, he was in his 80's when he shot himself because he didn't want to end up like previous generations of his family who had dementia.
The funny thing is most hoplophobes like you support assisted suicide as long as they don't use a gun

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mariacostel

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Re: Guns
Reply #136 - Sep 11^th, 2015 at 7:44pm

Baronvonrort wrote on Sep 11^th, 2015 at 7:32pm:

mariacostel wrote on Sep 11^th, 2015 at 7:27pm:

Baronvonrort wrote on Sep 11^th, 2015 at 7:17pm:

mariacostel wrote on Sep 11^th, 2015 at 7:00pm:

Baronvonrort wrote on Sep 11^th, 2015 at 6:27pm:

BigOl64 wrote on Sep 11^th, 2015 at 5:59pm:

mariacostel wrote on Sep 11^th, 2015 at 5:00pm:

gizmo_2655 wrote on Sep 11^th, 2015 at 4:42pm:

And you are all idiots...Guns do NOT cause any problems....the people who 'own' guns may cause issues...but that has NOTHING to do with the actual gun itself...

Technically true, but it is also true that the presence and existence of a gun makes violent death more likely. The gun is not an innocent factor is all of this.

It is the presence of a violent lunatic that is the problem, not the gun.

Of the two women killed by violent lunatics this week, one was with a gun and the other was with a brick, the only consistency was the violent POS.

And in at least one case the woman was turned away by police who couldn't be f...ked helping her.

Guns are nothing more than a bullsh1t excuse by a cowardly little fascist peice of sh1t john howard to use as a distraction.

He had an AVO in force against him which means he did not have a licence for his unregistered pistol.
Like Bryant this guy did not have a firearm licence.
The law failed to protect this woman with an AVO along with gun laws.

Guns were not the only thing taken from people,mace,pepper srays and stun guns are illegal.

Our laws have disarmed the weaker members of society from having lethal or non lethal self defence weapons.

A woman was slashed with a machete,another was run off the road and bashed to death, we had a shooting with an unlicensed person with an unregistered gun.

There are seriously disturbed people who prey on women, this is not something new it has been happening throughout human history, the government taking self defence weapons from women was despicable

What makes you think these weapons (your words) cannot be used offensively? If they can be used offensively then they are just weapons. Why do you think body armour is banned? Surely that is the ultimate defensive protection? Answer: because it can allow criminals to be better protected from law enforcement.

The issue is not one of guns or pepper spray but of violence itself. More weapons is never a solution to... weapons. It only starts an escalation.

If you have been reading the news crims have used machetes,lumps of steel after running people off the road and illegal guns.
If a crim has a machete or gun do you think they will bother carrying mace,pepper sprays or stun guns.

Body armour is a bit of a strawman,nobody is asking for body armour to be legalised yet nothing stops the idiocy from hoplophobes like you.

Body armour doesn't work against most hunting rifles, if you look at the specs it stops .22's ,shotguns and most pistols,it does not stop low powered centrefire rifles let alone high powered ones.

VERY few criminals ever employ a machete or gun.

Meanwhile the NRA or its like tells everyone how weapons are not the problem.

If guns are not the problem, then why are people not allowed to carry military grade large caliber weaponry around with them?

2 women were attacked with machetes and gun in the last week,not the first and will not be the last.

Perhaps if the USA enforced it's laws better on felons not being allowed to have guns crime would drop, no point bringing in new laws when old ones aren't being enforced.

People are allowed to carry around semi auto 50BMG in the USA, there has never been a crime done with a 50BMG.

Where did you get that 'fact' from? the NRA website where apparently only a few hundred gun deaths occur every year? Even if it were true (and it isnt) it is irrelevant.

Were you aware that almost NONE of the mass shootings have been committed by felons? They largely had no record at all. And if a felon were planning a mass shooting why do you think that ANY LAW would be an impediment?

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mariacostel Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 7344 Sydney Gender:	Re: Guns Reply #137 - Sep 11^th, 2015 at 7:49pm Where is my post?
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mariacostel

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Australian Politics

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Sydney
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Re: Guns
Reply #138 - Sep 11^th, 2015 at 7:52pm

Baronvonrort wrote on Sep 11^th, 2015 at 7:36pm:

mariacostel wrote on Sep 11^th, 2015 at 7:31pm:

Baronvonrort wrote on Sep 11^th, 2015 at 7:28pm:

mariacostel wrote on Sep 11^th, 2015 at 7:04pm:

Baronvonrort wrote on Sep 11^th, 2015 at 6:55pm:

mariacostel wrote on Sep 11^th, 2015 at 6:35pm:

And we are back in Redneck Wonderland.

If a lunatic goes into a school to kill kids what is the difference if he is armed with a brick or a gun? Since I can't trust you with coming up with the answer on your own I will provide it. With the gun we are talking perhaps as many as 50. With a brick, probably one, maybe two, possibly none.

Intent is the same - murderous rage. That we cannot easily stop. But we can stop them having weapons to increase the body count.

The rednecks are not the probem, the black firearm homicide is 7 times higher than white people, blacks are 13% of he population and account for over 50% of all homcides.
Gangsta rap is a bigger problem than rednecks.

Schools have been gun free zones since the 1980's,all the mass shooting tend to happen in gun free zones they never happen at NRA conventions or gun shows where people walk around armed.

The worst mass murderers in NSW,QLD and VIC lit fires to kill their innocent victims, they have a higher bodycounts than our second worst mass shooting.

That is supremely illogical. Mass shootings in schools do not occur because schools are gun-free zones. They occur because everywhere else IS a gun zone. This whole debate occurs because a woman was shot. There are many cities in the USA (gun central) where a single night without a gun death is considered a rarity and in some has not happened in decades.

The oddest thing is the notion that somehow, gun deaths are not related to guns, a bit like how car deaths are not in any way related to cars.

The movie theatre mass shootings were done in gun free zones, nutjobs prefer gun free zones because nobody can shoot back, the majority of these nutjobs shoot themselves when a good guy with a gun turns up.

There are many cities in the USA which have lower homicide rates than Australia despite the fact everyone is armed to the hilt with AR15's and pistols,like Plano Texas.
This guy tells all the facts hoplophobes ignore.

And yet 50,000 people die annually from guns. Is that not the stat which essentially debunks your point of how 'safe' guns are?

16,000 homicides in the USA with 11,000 of them done with guns.

Suicide is a separate issue, Phil Bolger was a friend of mine who lived in the USA, he was in his 80's when he shot himself because he didn't want to end up like previous generations of his family who had dementia.
The funny thing is most hoplophobes like you support assisted suicide as long as they don't use a gun

Stop using stupid terms like 'hoplophobe'. It makes you look foolish and you would do well to keep your comments on suicide based on thigs I've actually said rather than making them up like a troll.

Your death figures are understated but even if they arent, how is 11,000 gun deaths something to praise or be unconcerned by? It is 10-15 times our rate of gun death.

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Pho Huc

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Victoria
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Re: Guns
Reply #139 - Sep 11^th, 2015 at 7:55pm

mariacostel wrote on Sep 11^th, 2015 at 6:26pm:

Pho Huc wrote on Sep 11^th, 2015 at 5:44pm:

mariacostel wrote on Sep 11^th, 2015 at 4:58pm:

Pho Huc wrote on Sep 11^th, 2015 at 3:09pm:

mariacostel wrote on Sep 11^th, 2015 at 2:08pm:

Pho Huc wrote on Sep 11^th, 2015 at 1:57pm:

BigOl64 wrote on Sep 11^th, 2015 at 7:16am:

Pho Huc wrote on Sep 10^th, 2015 at 7:21pm:

I did read a study that showed an increase in the murder rate after capital punishment was introduced.
Basically because the punishment for crime was so bad people were careful not to leave witnesses alive.

I really wish i could track down the study I referenced, I think I read it new scientist about 5 years ago, but no luck finding it on the web. Just so many associated studies clogging up my search.

Still waiting to hear from Maria about the reason we have jails........

I will answer that when you explain why we have rain. if you want to ask a truly dumb question don't expect a polite response.

There are no stupid question, only stupid people.

Do I really have to explain how atmospheric precipitation forms to get you to justify your opinion? that seems both irrelevant and irrational!

I have stated my opinion(jails are pointless) and my reasons(because they don't prevent crime, the don't improve the inmates and they cost lots of money).

Do you have the intellectual capacity to explain why prisons are essential to society?
If so, prove it by demonstrating it.
If not, that's fine too, just please be quiet while the adults are talking.

Jails exist to rehabilitate and to protect society from criminals. It also serves to punish and to act as a deterrent.

Now, anyone in year 8 could have come up with that and many, a lot younger.

Thanks for the reply Maria, Its a shame you could only provide a year 8's answer but that alright, Ill reward the effort if not the result

So they provide rehabilitation, isolation, punishment and deterrence.

Of these four functions, only the Isolation part is best served by incarceration.
The rest of the functions that a jail is designed to fulfill could be served by other methods, possibly with greater effectiveness, definitely at lower cost.

Prior to jails the justice system used a combination of corporal punishment and execution. The ultimate deterrent-It didn't stop crime, so we changed to jails, with more of a focus on rehabilitation, and less on punishment.

I'm asking why we cant extend this philosophy to its maximum and replace the punitive aspects of our justice system with more effective positive measures.

You do a lot of talking but very little in the area of practical alternatives. Why should we remove punitive measures? If crime is not going to be punished, why would people obey the law?

More detail please.

Assuming I was the big poomba and was able to operate over a sufficiently long term time frame I would focus most policy on early intervention and youth education programs.

*I would incentivise people not to commit crimes.
I would incentivise responsible parenting, and parental training.
I would focus on eliminating on the core causes of anti-social behavior (poverty, substance abuse, mental illness).
I would decriminalize drug use.

Vote Pho! Lol

Seriously though, I accept that the way society is structured now requires prisons.
I don't think we should accept that this is the best solution to our social problems though, and should try and look for better ways of achieving the desired outcomes.

*this is a whole other complex idea.

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The law locks up the man who steals the goose from the common, but leaves the greater criminal loose who steals the common from the goose (convict saying)

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Pho Huc

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Re: Guns
Reply #140 - Sep 11^th, 2015 at 8:04pm

Baronvonrort wrote on Sep 11^th, 2015 at 7:36pm:

here are many cities in the USA which have lower homicide rates than Australia despite the fact everyone is armed to the hilt with AR15's and pistols,like Plano Texas.
This guy tells all the facts hoplophobes ignore.

In the whole of the US there are only three cities with murder rates under the Australian Average. All the other cities are much much higher.
Its not that we ignore this statistic. Its that we understand this statistic is meaningless because of the small sample size.

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The law locks up the man who steals the goose from the common, but leaves the greater criminal loose who steals the common from the goose (convict saying)

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Baronvonrort

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Re: Guns
Reply #141 - Sep 11^th, 2015 at 8:07pm

mariacostel wrote on Sep 11^th, 2015 at 7:52pm:

Baronvonrort wrote on Sep 11^th, 2015 at 7:36pm:

mariacostel wrote on Sep 11^th, 2015 at 7:31pm:

Baronvonrort wrote on Sep 11^th, 2015 at 7:28pm:

mariacostel wrote on Sep 11^th, 2015 at 7:04pm:

Baronvonrort wrote on Sep 11^th, 2015 at 6:55pm:

mariacostel wrote on Sep 11^th, 2015 at 6:35pm:

And we are back in Redneck Wonderland.

If a lunatic goes into a school to kill kids what is the difference if he is armed with a brick or a gun? Since I can't trust you with coming up with the answer on your own I will provide it. With the gun we are talking perhaps as many as 50. With a brick, probably one, maybe two, possibly none.

Intent is the same - murderous rage. That we cannot easily stop. But we can stop them having weapons to increase the body count.

The rednecks are not the probem, the black firearm homicide is 7 times higher than white people, blacks are 13% of he population and account for over 50% of all homcides.
Gangsta rap is a bigger problem than rednecks.

Schools have been gun free zones since the 1980's,all the mass shooting tend to happen in gun free zones they never happen at NRA conventions or gun shows where people walk around armed.

The worst mass murderers in NSW,QLD and VIC lit fires to kill their innocent victims, they have a higher bodycounts than our second worst mass shooting.

That is supremely illogical. Mass shootings in schools do not occur because schools are gun-free zones. They occur because everywhere else IS a gun zone. This whole debate occurs because a woman was shot. There are many cities in the USA (gun central) where a single night without a gun death is considered a rarity and in some has not happened in decades.

The oddest thing is the notion that somehow, gun deaths are not related to guns, a bit like how car deaths are not in any way related to cars.

The movie theatre mass shootings were done in gun free zones, nutjobs prefer gun free zones because nobody can shoot back, the majority of these nutjobs shoot themselves when a good guy with a gun turns up.

There are many cities in the USA which have lower homicide rates than Australia despite the fact everyone is armed to the hilt with AR15's and pistols,like Plano Texas.
This guy tells all the facts hoplophobes ignore.

And yet 50,000 people die annually from guns. Is that not the stat which essentially debunks your point of how 'safe' guns are?

16,000 homicides in the USA with 11,000 of them done with guns.

Suicide is a separate issue, Phil Bolger was a friend of mine who lived in the USA, he was in his 80's when he shot himself because he didn't want to end up like previous generations of his family who had dementia.
The funny thing is most hoplophobes like you support assisted suicide as long as they don't use a gun

Stop using stupid terms like 'hoplophobe'. It makes you look foolish and you would do well to keep your comments on suicide based on thigs I've actually said rather than making them up like a troll.

Your death figures are understated but even if they arent, how is 11,000 gun deaths something to praise or be unconcerned by? It is 10-15 times our rate of gun death.

You are a hoplophobe your posts prove it.

My death figures are not understated yours are typical hoplophobic inflated.
Quote:

All Homicides
16,121 deaths , 5.1 per 100,000

Firearm homicides
11,208 , 3.5 per 100,000
www.cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/homicide.htm

Unintentional fall deaths
30,208 deaths , 9.6 per 100,000

Motor vehicle deaths
33,804 deaths ,10.7 per 100,000

Unintentional poisoning deaths
38,851 deaths , 12.3 per 100,000
www.cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/accidental-injury.htm

30,000 people killed from accidental falls is nothing to be proud of.

Do you want the link which puts blacks at 12% of the population and they account for 50% of the firearm homicides?

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mariacostel

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Re: Guns
Reply #142 - Sep 11^th, 2015 at 8:08pm

Quote:

Assuming I was the big poomba and was able to operate over a sufficiently long term time frame I would focus most policy on early intervention and youth education programs.

*I would incentivise people not to commit crimes.
I would incentivise responsible parenting, and parental training.
I would focus on eliminating on the core causes of anti-social behavior (poverty, substance abuse, mental illness).
I would decriminalize drug use.

Vote Pho! Lol

Seriously though, I accept that the way society is structured now requires prisons.
I don't think we should accept that this is the best solution to our social problems though, and should try and look for better ways of achieving the desired outcomes.

*this is a whole other complex idea.

You want to both ELIMINATE drug abuse while legalising drug use. Well that is an interesting if intrinsically inconsistent goal.

How do you 'incentivise' people not to commit crime? You oppose punishment so what is your other plan?

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mariacostel

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Re: Guns
Reply #143 - Sep 11^th, 2015 at 8:09pm

Baronvonrort wrote on Sep 11^th, 2015 at 8:07pm: