Australian Politics Forum

Phemanderac Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 3507 Gender:	Re: Guns Reply #90 - Sep 11^th, 2015 at 8:02am Evidence? There is NO evidence to support the death penalty reducing homicide rates either... Funny ol' thing that. Here is an interesting read though on studies about the effects of capital punishment on murder rates... https://www.dartmouth.edu/~chance/teaching_aids/books_articles/JLpaper.pdf
Back to top	On the 26th of January you are all invited to celebrate little white penal day... "They're not rules as such, more like guidelines" Pirates of the Caribbean.. IP Logged

Phemanderac Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 3507 Gender:	Re: Guns Reply #91 - Sep 11^th, 2015 at 8:08am or perhaps... https://www.law.columbia.edu/law_school/communications/reports/summer06/capitalp...
Back to top	On the 26th of January you are all invited to celebrate little white penal day... "They're not rules as such, more like guidelines" Pirates of the Caribbean.. IP Logged

Phemanderac Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 3507 Gender:	Re: Guns Reply #92 - Sep 11^th, 2015 at 8:09am Whilst opinions are ok, it might be beneficial if a few posters read more and posted either less or the same volume.... Read more though is essential...
Back to top	On the 26th of January you are all invited to celebrate little white penal day... "They're not rules as such, more like guidelines" Pirates of the Caribbean.. IP Logged

Phemanderac Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 3507 Gender:	Re: Guns Reply #93 - Sep 11^th, 2015 at 8:19am http://www.bocsar.nsw.gov.au/Documents/CJB/cjb84.pdf I suspect this one may be TLDR for some...
Back to top	On the 26th of January you are all invited to celebrate little white penal day... "They're not rules as such, more like guidelines" Pirates of the Caribbean.. IP Logged

Gnads

Gold Member

Offline

Australian Politics

Posts: 29287
Gender: male

Re: Guns
Reply #94 - Sep 11^th, 2015 at 8:57am

greggerypeccary wrote on Sep 10^th, 2015 at 12:40pm:

Johnsmith wrote on Sep 10^th, 2015 at 12:31pm:

mariacostel wrote on Sep 10^th, 2015 at 12:04pm:

Johnsmith wrote on Sep 10^th, 2015 at 11:51am:

I found yesterdays incident more disturbing ... also on the Gold Coast

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-09-10/ex-bandido-lionel-patea-to-face-murder-aft...

forced her off the road , then while she was trapped in her car, he beat her across the head with a metal plate and killed her ...

such a pretty girl too.

tell me again why we shouldn't have the death penalty?

Because it simply does not work in reducing crime especially murder.

but it does reduce the chances of the same person murdering again

Nobody has ever disputed that fact, ever.

So, I'm not sure why people feel the need to keep bringing it up - you're just arguing with yourself.

Yes: a dead criminal can no longer commit crimes.

And, being imprisoned also reduces the chances of the same person murdering again.

Really? ... try telling Jill Meaghers family that.

That may work if there was truth in sentencing .... but people who should not be on the streets to commit these murders are constantly being bailed or early released/paroled way too soon.

So in effect the inadequacies of the system& therefore the state are responsible for killing people .......

but the wrong ones are being killed.

Isn't that by default worse than proven beyond doubt capital punishment?

Back to top

"When you are dead, you do not know you are dead. It's only painful and difficult for others. The same applies when you are stupid." ~ Ricky Gervais

IP Logged

Grappler Truth Teller Feller

Gold Member

Offline

Australian Politics

Posts: 83803
Proud pre-1850's NO Voter
Gender: male

Re: Guns
Reply #95 - Sep 11^th, 2015 at 9:07am

Pho Huc wrote on Sep 10^th, 2015 at 9:04pm:

mariacostel wrote on Sep 10^th, 2015 at 8:22pm:

Pho Huc wrote on Sep 10^th, 2015 at 7:30pm:

mariacostel wrote on Sep 10^th, 2015 at 7:10pm:

Pho Huc wrote on Sep 10^th, 2015 at 7:05pm:

How about getting rid of jails and instituting the death penalty?

I've yet to hear one good argument in favour of jails, It appears to me that the only reason we have them is because of vestigial sense of obligatory vengeance.

In my mind, there are two types of criminal. People who are fundamentally damaged(eg Martin Bryant) with deep psychological issues and limited prospect of benefiting society.

The other types are those who commit crimes of greed, passion or stupidity. These people do not benefit from incarceration.

I would love to see a system that is geared to give the greatest benefit to society at the lowest cost. For me this would mean execution of the former type, and rehabilitation of the second type. Its much cheaper to send a criminal to university than jail, and much better for them and society, both before and after.

I think it is kinder to execute someone than keep them locked up for 50 years, and much cheaper.

Well there have been some dumb statements on this thread, but you've topped them all.

Any chance you could explain that statement?

I highlighted the silliest ones for you.

"I've yet to hear one good argument in favour of jails"

Why, do you have a good argument for them that you've been keeping secret? I know jails are traditional, but that doesn't make them implicitly necessary. From a behaviouristic point of view punishment is a very inefficient way of motivating behavior.
If Prison is not the best way of motivating the desired behavior, why are we using them?

"In my mind, there are two types of criminal"

Ok, you got me here. This is a massive oversimplification but I was trying to keep my post concise. The point I was attempting to make is that there are two types of criminal.
One can be rehabilitated and will not commit more crime.
One can not be rehabilitated and commit crime if given the opportunity.

"Its much cheaper to send a criminal to university than jail"

Average cost per day of a prisoner in Australia $292.00 per day or $106 K a year.

http://www.sbs.com.au/news/article/2015/02/02/how-much-does-it-cost-keep-people-australian-jails

Cost of doing a non-government subsidized degree in clinical medicine(there most expensive course) at Melbourne uni(most expensive in Australia) 80 K per year.

http://futurestudents.unimelb.edu.au/admissions/fees/ug-intl/subject-fees

So its 25 thousand dollars a year more expensive to send someone to jail than the most expensive course, of the most expensive university in Australia.

The two greatest sets of organised crime gangs in this country are the police and the legal fraternity.

Back to top

“Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.”
― John Adams

IP Logged

greggerypeccary Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 136426 Gender:	Re: Guns Reply #96 - Sep 11^th, 2015 at 9:19am Gnads wrote on Sep 11^th, 2015 at 8:57am: greggerypeccary wrote on Sep 10^th, 2015 at 12:40pm: And, being imprisoned also reduces the chances of the same person murdering again. Really? ... try telling Jill Meaghers family that. Yes, really. Jill's killer wasn't in prison, so not sure why you mentioned that case.
Back to top	IP Logged

mariacostel

Gold Member

Offline

Australian Politics

Posts: 7344
Sydney
Gender: female

Re: Guns
Reply #97 - Sep 11^th, 2015 at 9:45am

Bobby. wrote on Sep 10^th, 2015 at 8:52pm:

greggerypeccary wrote on Sep 10^th, 2015 at 6:35pm:

Bobby. wrote on Sep 10^th, 2015 at 6:13pm:

Jovial Monk wrote on Sep 10^th, 2015 at 6:11pm:

Drugs should be treated as a medical problem, not a police matter. Hanging addicts will achieve what? Especially if they have not committed a capital crime?

No silly - I meant ice addicts who murder people should be hanged

in public - as a deterrent to others.

Capital punishment doesn't work as a deterrent, Booby.

You know that.

Just ask George Carlin:

Do you have any sources of information other than a silly old man - George Carlin?

Back to top

IP Logged

Gnads

Gold Member

Offline

Australian Politics

Posts: 29287
Gender: male

Re: Guns
Reply #98 - Sep 11^th, 2015 at 11:05am

greggerypeccary wrote on Sep 11^th, 2015 at 9:19am:

Gnads wrote on Sep 11^th, 2015 at 8:57am:

greggerypeccary wrote on Sep 10^th, 2015 at 12:40pm:

And, being imprisoned also reduces the chances of the same person murdering again.

Really? ... try telling Jill Meaghers family that.

Yes, really.

Jill's killer wasn't in prison, so not sure why you mentioned that case.

If you had taken in the whole post you would see .... no he wasn't in prison .... but he should have been.

I'm sure if that young Gold Coast Mum's ex boyfriend had been in jail ... for his involvement in the Broadbeach bikie brawl ... she would still be alive today.

The Cops obviously couldn't get the court evidence right even though they had new anti-bikie legislation/powers at their disposal.

Another failure of the system.

Back to top

"When you are dead, you do not know you are dead. It's only painful and difficult for others. The same applies when you are stupid." ~ Ricky Gervais

IP Logged

greggerypeccary

Gold Member

Offline

Australian Politics

Posts: 136426
Gender: male

Re: Guns
Reply #99 - Sep 11^th, 2015 at 11:28am

Gnads wrote on Sep 11^th, 2015 at 11:05am:

greggerypeccary wrote on Sep 11^th, 2015 at 9:19am:

Gnads wrote on Sep 11^th, 2015 at 8:57am:

greggerypeccary wrote on Sep 10^th, 2015 at 12:40pm:

And, being imprisoned also reduces the chances of the same person murdering again.

Really? ... try telling Jill Meaghers family that.

Yes, really.

Jill's killer wasn't in prison, so not sure why you mentioned that case.

If you had taken in the whole post you would see .... no he wasn't in prison .... but he should have been.

Indeed, he should have.

Because being imprisoned also reduces the chances of the same person murdering again.

Back to top

IP Logged

mariacostel

Gold Member

Offline

Australian Politics

Posts: 7344
Sydney
Gender: female

Re: Guns
Reply #100 - Sep 11^th, 2015 at 12:53pm

Gnads wrote on Sep 11^th, 2015 at 11:05am:

greggerypeccary wrote on Sep 11^th, 2015 at 9:19am:

Gnads wrote on Sep 11^th, 2015 at 8:57am:

greggerypeccary wrote on Sep 10^th, 2015 at 12:40pm:

And, being imprisoned also reduces the chances of the same person murdering again.

Really? ... try telling Jill Meaghers family that.

Yes, really.

Jill's killer wasn't in prison, so not sure why you mentioned that case.

If you had taken in the whole post you would see .... no he wasn't in prison .... but he should have been.

I'm sure if that young Gold Coast Mum's ex boyfriend had been in jail ... for his involvement in the Broadbeach bikie brawl ... she would still be alive today.

The Cops obviously couldn't get the court evidence right even though they had new anti-bikie legislation/powers at their disposal.

Another failure of the system.

That is a presumptous statement. Apart from the fact that you cannot predict the future, no matter if he was in jail then or not, he was going to get out at some stage. Why do you think a violent man like him wasnt simply going to do it later rather than sooner?

Back to top

IP Logged

Pho Huc

Gold Member

Offline

Australian Politics

Posts: 985
Victoria
Gender: male

Re: Guns
Reply #101 - Sep 11^th, 2015 at 1:57pm

BigOl64 wrote on Sep 11^th, 2015 at 7:16am:

Pho Huc wrote on Sep 10^th, 2015 at 7:21pm:

I did read a study that showed an increase in the murder rate after capital punishment was introduced.
Basically because the punishment for crime was so bad people were careful not to leave witnesses alive.

I really wish i could track down the study I referenced, I think I read it new scientist about 5 years ago, but no luck finding it on the web. Just so many associated studies clogging up my search.

Still waiting to hear from Maria about the reason we have jails........

Back to top

The law locks up the man who steals the goose from the common, but leaves the greater criminal loose who steals the common from the goose (convict saying)

IP Logged

mothra

Gold Member

Offline

Australian Politics

Posts: 35242
Gender: female

Re: Guns
Reply #102 - Sep 11^th, 2015 at 2:07pm

Pho Huc wrote on Sep 11^th, 2015 at 1:57pm:

BigOl64 wrote on Sep 11^th, 2015 at 7:16am:

Pho Huc wrote on Sep 10^th, 2015 at 7:21pm:

I did read a study that showed an increase in the murder rate after capital punishment was introduced.
Basically because the punishment for crime was so bad people were careful not to leave witnesses alive.

I really wish i could track down the study I referenced, I think I read it new scientist about 5 years ago, but no luck finding it on the web. Just so many associated studies clogging up my search.

Still waiting to hear from Maria about the reason we have jails........

It's a well known consequence of the DP. The risk of homicide being the end result of violent crime is markedly higher.

Back to top

If you can't be a good example, you have to be a horrible warning.

IP Logged

mariacostel

Gold Member

Offline

Australian Politics

Posts: 7344
Sydney
Gender: female

Re: Guns
Reply #103 - Sep 11^th, 2015 at 2:08pm

Pho Huc wrote on Sep 11^th, 2015 at 1:57pm:

BigOl64 wrote on Sep 11^th, 2015 at 7:16am:

Pho Huc wrote on Sep 10^th, 2015 at 7:21pm:

I did read a study that showed an increase in the murder rate after capital punishment was introduced.
Basically because the punishment for crime was so bad people were careful not to leave witnesses alive.

I really wish i could track down the study I referenced, I think I read it new scientist about 5 years ago, but no luck finding it on the web. Just so many associated studies clogging up my search.

Still waiting to hear from Maria about the reason we have jails........

I will answer that when you explain why we have rain. if you want to ask a truly dumb question don't expect a polite response.

Back to top

IP Logged

Pho Huc

Gold Member

Offline

Australian Politics

Posts: 985
Victoria
Gender: male

Re: Guns
Reply #104 - Sep 11^th, 2015 at 3:09pm

mariacostel wrote on Sep 11^th, 2015 at 2:08pm:

Pho Huc wrote on Sep 11^th, 2015 at 1:57pm:

BigOl64 wrote on Sep 11^th, 2015 at 7:16am:

Pho Huc wrote on Sep 10^th, 2015 at 7:21pm:

I did read a study that showed an increase in the murder rate after capital punishment was introduced.
Basically because the punishment for crime was so bad people were careful not to leave witnesses alive.

I really wish i could track down the study I referenced, I think I read it new scientist about 5 years ago, but no luck finding it on the web. Just so many associated studies clogging up my search.

Still waiting to hear from Maria about the reason we have jails........

I will answer that when you explain why we have rain. if you want to ask a truly dumb question don't expect a polite response.

There are no stupid question, only stupid people.

Do I really have to explain how atmospheric precipitation forms to get you to justify your opinion? that seems both irrelevant and irrational!

I have stated my opinion(jails are pointless) and my reasons(because they don't prevent crime, the don't improve the inmates and they cost lots of money).

Do you have the intellectual capacity to explain why prisons are essential to society?
If so, prove it by demonstrating it.
If not, that's fine too, just please be quiet while the adults are talking.

Back to top

The law locks up the man who steals the goose from the common, but leaves the greater criminal loose who steals the common from the goose (convict saying)

IP Logged