Australian Politics Forum - Message To Productivity Commission

Swagman

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Re: Message To Productivity Commission
Reply #45 - Sep 21^st, 2015 at 8:55am

crocodile wrote on Sep 20^th, 2015 at 12:19pm:

Swagman wrote on Sep 19^th, 2015 at 3:34pm:

Dnarever wrote on Sep 19^th, 2015 at 8:42am:

Swagman wrote on Sep 19^th, 2015 at 8:12am:

ImSpartacus2 wrote on Sep 19^th, 2015 at 8:10am:

Swagman wrote on Sep 19^th, 2015 at 7:46am:

Penalty rates cause unemployment

Cutting worker wages will entrench the recession and cause more unemployment.

No one would get a wage cut.

Paying people less for more work is a pay cut.

It's not more work, it's the same amount of work. That's why penalty rates are illogical and a drain on productivity.

And, like anything, such a policy reform would have to be phased in for new employees' contracts.

If the business has trouble getting workers on a Sunday then it will offer more pay to attract them, in the same way that it may pay one person more than another because they are more productive. If there's plenty of workers willing to work at single time on Sunday, then the business wouldn't have to pay more to attract them.

Unless of course a Union behaves like a cartel and bans its members and intimidates non members from working on a Sunday without penalty rates, until the business has to either pay an artificial labour cost (penalty rate) or not open at all? ----> Either way the penalty rate is causing unemployment in this instance.

Just for our edification, could you let us all know how penalty rates drain productivity.

OK

Swagman wrote on Sep 19^th, 2015 at 3:47pm:

If your job is making boxes and you make 100 boxes a day. If you work on a Sunday, then you will still only make 100 boxes. Your productivity doesn't double? Why should you get paid double?

Labor Productivity = Total Output/Total Man-Hours

Quantify Man hours = labour cost

From the above EG say it costs $1 labour cost per box on single time. $100 per day

With penalty rate x2 it costs $2 labour cost per box $200 per day

Productivity single time = 100 / 100 = 1x

Productivity penalty rate = 100 / 200 = 0.5x

Productivity is halved on Sunday. Employ 1 more person casually on Sun (assuming no PR) and get another 100 boxes for the same Labour cost. Community has 1 less unemployed person, so unemployment has declined & Govt gets more tax and is spending less on welfare. This one person has more spendable income etc etc

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Jovial Monk Gold Member Offline Dogs not cats! Posts: 47794 Gender:	Re: Message To Productivity Commission Reply #46 - Sep 21^st, 2015 at 9:05am Productivity is output per hour worked. Nothing to do with wages.
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Phemanderac

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Re: Message To Productivity Commission
Reply #47 - Sep 21^st, 2015 at 9:08am

Swagman wrote on Sep 21^st, 2015 at 8:55am:

Swagman wrote on Sep 19th, 2015 at 3:47pm:

If your job is making boxes and you make 100 boxes a day. If you work on a Sunday, then you will still only make 100 boxes. Your productivity doesn't double? Why should you get paid double?

Why would you make boxes on a Sunday?

Surely that is the choice of the employer to be manufacturing on a Sunday, as such, pay the penalty rates.

It is called penalty rates for a reason.

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Phemanderac

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Re: Message To Productivity Commission
Reply #48 - Sep 21^st, 2015 at 9:13am

PLUS, productivity is best measured over a longer time period that one Sunday...

I.E if the bottom line (being the profit made) is sustainable, then it is obviously worthwhile for the business to be open... If the only thing holding the business back is weekend and evening penalty rates, then the business is not productive regardless of rates of pay.

I am astounded that there are supporters of Australia further developing a working poor class. You know, people who honestly work for a living yet can't afford to actually live.

Productivity commission need to go get a real job for a few years me thinks.

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stunspore

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Re: Message To Productivity Commission
Reply #49 - Sep 21^st, 2015 at 9:30am

Swagman wrote on Sep 21^st, 2015 at 8:55am:

crocodile wrote on Sep 20^th, 2015 at 12:19pm:

Swagman wrote on Sep 19^th, 2015 at 3:34pm:

Dnarever wrote on Sep 19^th, 2015 at 8:42am:

Swagman wrote on Sep 19^th, 2015 at 8:12am:

ImSpartacus2 wrote on Sep 19^th, 2015 at 8:10am:

Swagman wrote on Sep 19^th, 2015 at 7:46am:

Penalty rates cause unemployment

Cutting worker wages will entrench the recession and cause more unemployment.

No one would get a wage cut.

Paying people less for more work is a pay cut.

It's not more work, it's the same amount of work. That's why penalty rates are illogical and a drain on productivity.

And, like anything, such a policy reform would have to be phased in for new employees' contracts.

If the business has trouble getting workers on a Sunday then it will offer more pay to attract them, in the same way that it may pay one person more than another because they are more productive. If there's plenty of workers willing to work at single time on Sunday, then the business wouldn't have to pay more to attract them.

Unless of course a Union behaves like a cartel and bans its members and intimidates non members from working on a Sunday without penalty rates, until the business has to either pay an artificial labour cost (penalty rate) or not open at all? ----> Either way the penalty rate is causing unemployment in this instance.

Just for our edification, could you let us all know how penalty rates drain productivity.

OK

Swagman wrote on Sep 19^th, 2015 at 3:47pm:

If your job is making boxes and you make 100 boxes a day. If you work on a Sunday, then you will still only make 100 boxes. Your productivity doesn't double? Why should you get paid double?

Labor Productivity = Total Output/Total Man-Hours

Quantify Man hours = labour cost

From the above EG say it costs $1 labour cost per box on single time. $100 per day

With penalty rate x2 it costs $2 labour cost per box $200 per day

Productivity single time = 100 / 100 = 1x

Productivity penalty rate = 100 / 200 = 0.5x

Productivity is halved on Sunday. Employ 1 more person casually on Sun (assuming no PR) and get another 100 boxes for the same Labour cost. Community has 1 less unemployed person, so unemployment has declined & Govt gets more tax and is spending less on welfare. This one person has more spendable income etc etc

Sad attempt at justifying paying workers peanuts. Show me some reputable sources to support your argument.

To counter this - why pay ambos, police, and hospitals penalty rates? Why

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Jovial Monk

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Re: Message To Productivity Commission
Reply #50 - Sep 21^st, 2015 at 9:33am

stunspore wrote on Sep 21^st, 2015 at 9:30am:

Swagman wrote on Sep 21^st, 2015 at 8:55am:

crocodile wrote on Sep 20^th, 2015 at 12:19pm:

Swagman wrote on Sep 19^th, 2015 at 3:34pm:

Dnarever wrote on Sep 19^th, 2015 at 8:42am:

Swagman wrote on Sep 19^th, 2015 at 8:12am:

ImSpartacus2 wrote on Sep 19^th, 2015 at 8:10am:

Swagman wrote on Sep 19^th, 2015 at 7:46am:

Penalty rates cause unemployment

Cutting worker wages will entrench the recession and cause more unemployment.

No one would get a wage cut.

Paying people less for more work is a pay cut.

It's not more work, it's the same amount of work. That's why penalty rates are illogical and a drain on productivity.

And, like anything, such a policy reform would have to be phased in for new employees' contracts.

If the business has trouble getting workers on a Sunday then it will offer more pay to attract them, in the same way that it may pay one person more than another because they are more productive. If there's plenty of workers willing to work at single time on Sunday, then the business wouldn't have to pay more to attract them.

Unless of course a Union behaves like a cartel and bans its members and intimidates non members from working on a Sunday without penalty rates, until the business has to either pay an artificial labour cost (penalty rate) or not open at all? ----> Either way the penalty rate is causing unemployment in this instance.

Just for our edification, could you let us all know how penalty rates drain productivity.

OK

Swagman wrote on Sep 19^th, 2015 at 3:47pm:

If your job is making boxes and you make 100 boxes a day. If you work on a Sunday, then you will still only make 100 boxes. Your productivity doesn't double? Why should you get paid double?

Labor Productivity = Total Output/Total Man-Hours

Quantify Man hours = labour cost

From the above EG say it costs $1 labour cost per box on single time. $100 per day

With penalty rate x2 it costs $2 labour cost per box $200 per day

Productivity single time = 100 / 100 = 1x

Productivity penalty rate = 100 / 200 = 0.5x

Productivity is halved on Sunday. Employ 1 more person casually on Sun (assuming no PR) and get another 100 boxes for the same Labour cost. Community has 1 less unemployed person, so unemployment has declined & Govt gets more tax and is spending less on welfare. This one person has more spendable income etc etc

Sad attempt at justifying paying workers peanuts. Show me some reputable sources to support your argument.

To counter this - why pay ambos, police, and hospitals penalty rates? Why

Because Swag feels he might need an ambulance on the weekend or at night?

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stunspore Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 5097 Gender:	Re: Message To Productivity Commission Reply #51 - Sep 21^st, 2015 at 10:14am Accidents can be minimized to refrain from use of ambos and hospitals by avoiding risky activities such as sport. In a sense then, those are discretionary, just like going out for lunch.
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Swagman

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Beware of cheap imitations......

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Illawarra NSW
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Re: Message To Productivity Commission
Reply #52 - Sep 21^st, 2015 at 10:26am

stunspore wrote on Sep 21^st, 2015 at 9:30am:

Sad attempt at justifying paying workers peanuts. Show me some reputable sources to support your argument.

Isn't the productivity commission a reputable source?

stunspore wrote on Sep 21^st, 2015 at 9:30am:

To counter this - why pay ambos, police, and hospitals penalty rates? Why

Why indeed? You tell me?

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Swagman

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Re: Message To Productivity Commission
Reply #53 - Sep 21^st, 2015 at 10:54am

Phemanderac wrote on Sep 21^st, 2015 at 9:13am:

PLUS, productivity is best measured over a longer time period that one Sunday...

It was just a simple example to support a view point.

Phemanderac wrote on Sep 21^st, 2015 at 9:13am:

I.E if the bottom line (being the profit made) is sustainable, then it is obviously worthwhile for the business to be open... If the only thing holding the business back is weekend and evening penalty rates, then the business is not productive regardless of rates of pay.

Maybe, but why should someone be unemployed when they could have gainful employment.

Using the example.

Assume that if with a x2 penalty rate for Sunday the box maker employed 5 people for Sunday work (so for 40 hrs work he pays 80 hrs of wages), but if he didn't have to pay his workers double time for Sunday he could provide another full time job (40 hours) for the same labour cost.

An unemployed person gets a full time job and everyone is paid the same.

Phemanderac wrote on Sep 21^st, 2015 at 9:13am:

I am astounded that there are supporters of Australia further developing a working poor class. You know, people who honestly work for a living yet can't afford to actually live.

....and I am astounded that there are supporters of Australia further developing an unemployed poor class. You know, people who honestly 'want' to work for a living, yet are being denied a job by penalty rates... Cheesy

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Johnsmith Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 4716 Gender:	Re: Message To Productivity Commission Reply #54 - Sep 21^st, 2015 at 10:56am Swagman wrote on Sep 21^st, 2015 at 10:54am: It was just a simple example to support a view point. ahh, cherry picking
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Phemanderac

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Re: Message To Productivity Commission
Reply #55 - Sep 21^st, 2015 at 12:05pm

Swagman wrote on Sep 21^st, 2015 at 10:54am:

It was just a simple example to support a view point.

Clearly a flawed one then...

Swagman wrote on Sep 21^st, 2015 at 10:54am:

An unemployed person gets a full time job and everyone is paid the same.

That is an assumption made by you. The reality is, it is doubtful that a new person will be employed, after all, the company can now make exactly the same amount of money by spending less on wages... That's how business works...

Mess around with the figures all you like, bottom line, there is no gaurantee that businesses will employ more people, for the main part, they will make do with the same number of employees and keep the extra not spent on wages.

Swagman wrote on Sep 21^st, 2015 at 10:54am:

and I am astounded that there are supporters of Australia further developing an unemployed poor class. You know, people who honestly 'want' to work for a living, yet are being denied a job by penalty rates...

Rubbish.

There is absolutely no evidence to support that comment.

Any smart business already operating on weekends could prove your point quite easily. Stop their weekend trade and use that extra money to employ more people during the normal week...

As I said (and you ignored) they're called penalty rates for a reason...

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On the 26th of January you are all invited to celebrate little white penal day...

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Dnarever

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Re: Message To Productivity Commission
Reply #56 - Sep 21^st, 2015 at 12:05pm

Swagman wrote on Sep 21^st, 2015 at 10:54am:

Phemanderac wrote on Sep 21^st, 2015 at 9:13am:

PLUS, productivity is best measured over a longer time period that one Sunday...

It was just a simple example to support a view point.

Phemanderac wrote on Sep 21^st, 2015 at 9:13am:

I.E if the bottom line (being the profit made) is sustainable, then it is obviously worthwhile for the business to be open... If the only thing holding the business back is weekend and evening penalty rates, then the business is not productive regardless of rates of pay.

Maybe, but why should someone be unemployed when they could have gainful employment.

Using the example.

Assume that if with a x2 penalty rate for Sunday the box maker employed 5 people for Sunday work (so for 40 hrs work he pays 80 hrs of wages), but if he didn't have to pay his workers double time for Sunday he could provide another full time job (40 hours) for the same labour cost.

An unemployed person gets a full time job and everyone is paid the same.

Phemanderac wrote on Sep 21^st, 2015 at 9:13am:

I am astounded that there are supporters of Australia further developing a working poor class. You know, people who honestly work for a living yet can't afford to actually live.

....and I am astounded that there are supporters of Australia further developing an unemployed poor class. You know, people who honestly 'want' to work for a living, yet are being denied a job by penalty rates... Cheesy

..

It was just a simple example to support a view point.

It failed.

Assume that if with a x2 penalty rate for Sunday the box maker employed 5 people for Sunday work (so for 40 hrs work he pays 80 hrs of wages), but if he didn't have to pay his workers double time for Sunday he could provide another full time job (40 hours) for the same labour cost.

Now you have 2 people who would rather have the day off being underpaid to lose a day which has substantially more intrinsic value. One of them is doing work that the employer does not need.

One of the two will lose his job and the other will be left doing the same work for half the wage.

You know, people who honestly 'want' to work for a living, yet are being denied a job by penalty rates...

Once again penalty rates do not cost jobs and removing penalty rates do not produce jobs - its a fallacy.

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« Last Edit: Sep 21^st, 2015 at 12:11pm by Dnarever »

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Dnarever Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 59372 Here Gender:	Re: Message To Productivity Commission Reply #57 - Sep 21^st, 2015 at 12:13pm Swagman wrote on Sep 21^st, 2015 at 10:54am: I am astounded that there are supporters of Australia further developing an unemployed poor class. Much better to develope a working poor class.
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Swagman

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Re: Message To Productivity Commission
Reply #58 - Sep 21^st, 2015 at 12:29pm

Phemanderac wrote on Sep 21^st, 2015 at 12:05pm:

The reality is, it is doubtful that a new person will be employed, after all, the company can now make exactly the same amount of money by spending less on wages... That's how business works...

Mess around with the figures all you like, bottom line, there is no gaurantee that businesses will employ more people, for the main part, they will make do with the same number of employees and keep the extra not spent on wages

That is an assumption made by you....

Phemanderac wrote on Sep 21^st, 2015 at 12:05pm:

As I said (and you ignored) they're called penalty rates for a reason..

They are indeed

...they penalise the economy, penalise enterprise, penalise the unemployed and penalise competitiveness.

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Johnsmith Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 4716 Gender:	Re: Message To Productivity Commission Reply #59 - Sep 21^st, 2015 at 12:32pm Swagman wrote on Sep 21^st, 2015 at 12:29pm: That is an assumption made by you.... you've yet to provide any proof to the contrary. You're the one who keeps saying it will create jobs
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