Australian Politics Forum - Message To Productivity Commission

RandomCrook

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Re: Message To Productivity Commission
Reply #60 - Sep 21^st, 2015 at 12:50pm

I don't understand why you guys are bringing in the business model of industries that the productivity commission advice is not targeting, thinking that it has a large correlation to retail and hospitality.

With Retail and Hospitality in mind, to relate to your argument whether this will increase casual employment rates.
The simple answer is yes it will.By scraping/moving Saturday/Sunday penalty rate for those industries, will allow 1.Businesses will have lower operating cost allowing them to open for longer hours.
2.Let just say this business is very busy at peak hours, but very quiet when it's not which will reduce their profit margins.
By scrapping/moving the penalty rates this will allow them to hire more staff so customers will not have to wait in line as long(from experience I will not go into a restaurant/shop that has a massive line) for those peak hour periods and won't be losing as much money in the quiet times.

EDIT: Need to learn to proof read

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« Last Edit: Sep 21^st, 2015 at 12:57pm by RandomCrook »

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Johnsmith

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Re: Message To Productivity Commission
Reply #61 - Sep 21^st, 2015 at 12:52pm

RandomCrook wrote on Sep 21^st, 2015 at 12:50pm:

he simple question is yes it will.By scraping/moving Saturday/Sunday penalty rate for those industries, will allow 1.Businesses to have lower operating cost allowing them to open for longer hours.

business should have thought of that before asking for extended trading hours.

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When politicians offer you something for nothing, or something that sounds too good to be true, it's always worth taking a careful second look.
(Malcolm Turncoat)

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Grappler Deep State Feller

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Re: Message To Productivity Commission
Reply #62 - Sep 21^st, 2015 at 5:00pm

Dnarever wrote on Sep 21^st, 2015 at 12:13pm:

Swagman wrote on Sep 21^st, 2015 at 10:54am:

I am astounded that there are supporters of Australia further developing an unemployed poor class.

Much better to develope a working poor class.

Yes - that way they can starve genteely and will be considerably less trouble... as long as they suffer the delusion that as long as they work hard and be honest, all will be right in the world - they won't turn to crime and ... god forbid.. revolution! Easier to ride them down with the trooper's horses when they're starving, too....

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“Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.”
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Swagman Gold Member Offline Beware of cheap imitations...... Posts: 15095 Illawarra NSW Gender:	Re: Message To Productivity Commission Reply #63 - Sep 21^st, 2015 at 7:50pm Johnsmith wrote on Sep 21^st, 2015 at 12:32pm: Swagman wrote on Sep 21^st, 2015 at 12:29pm: That is an assumption made by you.... you've yet to provide any proof to the contrary. You're the one who keeps saying it will create jobs What do you think would happen if wages were doubled for every day?
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Johnsmith

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Re: Message To Productivity Commission
Reply #64 - Sep 21^st, 2015 at 7:51pm

Swagman wrote on Sep 21^st, 2015 at 7:50pm:

Johnsmith wrote on Sep 21^st, 2015 at 12:32pm:

Swagman wrote on Sep 21^st, 2015 at 12:29pm:

That is an assumption made by you....

you've yet to provide any proof to the contrary. You're the one who keeps saying it will create jobs

What do you think would happen if wages were doubled for every day? Huh

cost of living would go up

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When politicians offer you something for nothing, or something that sounds too good to be true, it's always worth taking a careful second look.
(Malcolm Turncoat)

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Swagman

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Re: Message To Productivity Commission
Reply #65 - Sep 21^st, 2015 at 7:59pm

Johnsmith wrote on Sep 21^st, 2015 at 7:51pm:

Swagman wrote on Sep 21^st, 2015 at 7:50pm:

Johnsmith wrote on Sep 21^st, 2015 at 12:32pm:

Swagman wrote on Sep 21^st, 2015 at 12:29pm:

That is an assumption made by you....

you've yet to provide any proof to the contrary. You're the one who keeps saying it will create jobs

What do you think would happen if wages were doubled for every day? Huh

cost of living would go up

.....for all those recently unemployed box makers Cheesy

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Grappler Deep State Feller

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Re: Message To Productivity Commission
Reply #66 - Sep 21^st, 2015 at 8:09pm

Johnsmith wrote on Sep 21^st, 2015 at 7:51pm:

Swagman wrote on Sep 21^st, 2015 at 7:50pm:

Johnsmith wrote on Sep 21^st, 2015 at 12:32pm:

Swagman wrote on Sep 21^st, 2015 at 12:29pm:

That is an assumption made by you....

you've yet to provide any proof to the contrary. You're the one who keeps saying it will create jobs

What do you think would happen if wages were doubled for every day? Huh

cost of living would go up

.. as already happened with the advent of the MADIF.... the moment the market realised that many households had two incomes, prices went up immediately - then began the endless chase by the single person family to even get a foothold in the market for such things as housing etc...

Rather than being an 'equalising' force in society, the MADIF has become a highway of inequality, and has lead to an increasingly fractured and divided society.

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“Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.”
― John Adams

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Grappler Deep State Feller Gold Member Online Australian Politics Posts: 85408 Always was always will be HOME Gender:	Re: Message To Productivity Commission Reply #67 - Sep 21^st, 2015 at 8:15pm Message To Productivity Commission .. go out and get a real job and pay some taxes you loafers....
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Johnsmith

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Re: Message To Productivity Commission
Reply #68 - Sep 21^st, 2015 at 8:18pm

Swagman wrote on Sep 21^st, 2015 at 7:59pm:

Johnsmith wrote on Sep 21^st, 2015 at 7:51pm:

Swagman wrote on Sep 21^st, 2015 at 7:50pm:

Johnsmith wrote on Sep 21^st, 2015 at 12:32pm:

Swagman wrote on Sep 21^st, 2015 at 12:29pm:

That is an assumption made by you....

you've yet to provide any proof to the contrary. You're the one who keeps saying it will create jobs

What do you think would happen if wages were doubled for every day? Huh

cost of living would go up

.....for all those recently unemployed box makers Cheesy

so were going to play make believe are we?

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When politicians offer you something for nothing, or something that sounds too good to be true, it's always worth taking a careful second look.
(Malcolm Turncoat)

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Swagman Gold Member Offline Beware of cheap imitations...... Posts: 15095 Illawarra NSW Gender:	Re: Message To Productivity Commission Reply #69 - Sep 21^st, 2015 at 9:26pm Johnsmith wrote on Sep 21^st, 2015 at 8:18pm: so were going to play make believe are we? ...so you get home ground advantage?
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Johnsmith Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 4716 Gender:	Re: Message To Productivity Commission Reply #70 - Sep 21^st, 2015 at 9:31pm Swagman wrote on Sep 21^st, 2015 at 9:26pm: Johnsmith wrote on Sep 21^st, 2015 at 8:18pm: so were going to play make believe are we? ...so you get home ground advantage? No, I get reality. When penalty rates are applied for every day of the week, you can complain.
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stunspore

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Re: Message To Productivity Commission
Reply #71 - Sep 21^st, 2015 at 9:39pm

Swag makes as many gaffes as Hockey does. I wonder if they are the one and same (obvious sarcasm there ofc).

I can see where Swag is coming from. Sadly I think there are more disadvantages than advantages to cutting penalty rates - not that I have research to back this up.

No matter what productivity commission said, Swag will always try and turn it to his way or discredit it if it can't. Climate change council etc is reputable yet Swag's team believe climate science is crap. Whatever.

I think I can understand how libs can be so twisted. And how they think lowering wages will make everyone happy. I am reminded of something from school, where during the time of Pol Pot, they had camps and apparently my teacher said that all people needed to do was work for food and shelter and that's about it. Trying to extrapolate the lib's way of thinking, people of lower caliber needs to work only for the bare necessities and without a "good job" live under bridges instead of houses. I don't know how many in Australia can survive 3rd world incomes in a 1st world country, but i guess if $2 per day type "Gina jobs" can be created then Swag will have his utopia. And with all those savings, I imagine his dream of never paying taxes will come true!

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crocodile

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Re: Message To Productivity Commission
Reply #72 - Sep 21^st, 2015 at 10:17pm

Swagman wrote on Sep 21^st, 2015 at 8:55am:

crocodile wrote on Sep 20^th, 2015 at 12:19pm:

Swagman wrote on Sep 19^th, 2015 at 3:34pm:

Dnarever wrote on Sep 19^th, 2015 at 8:42am:

Swagman wrote on Sep 19^th, 2015 at 8:12am:

ImSpartacus2 wrote on Sep 19^th, 2015 at 8:10am:

Swagman wrote on Sep 19^th, 2015 at 7:46am:

Penalty rates cause unemployment

Cutting worker wages will entrench the recession and cause more unemployment.

No one would get a wage cut.

Paying people less for more work is a pay cut.

It's not more work, it's the same amount of work. That's why penalty rates are illogical and a drain on productivity.

And, like anything, such a policy reform would have to be phased in for new employees' contracts.

If the business has trouble getting workers on a Sunday then it will offer more pay to attract them, in the same way that it may pay one person more than another because they are more productive. If there's plenty of workers willing to work at single time on Sunday, then the business wouldn't have to pay more to attract them.

Unless of course a Union behaves like a cartel and bans its members and intimidates non members from working on a Sunday without penalty rates, until the business has to either pay an artificial labour cost (penalty rate) or not open at all? ----> Either way the penalty rate is causing unemployment in this instance.

Just for our edification, could you let us all know how penalty rates drain productivity.

OK

Swagman wrote on Sep 19^th, 2015 at 3:47pm:

If your job is making boxes and you make 100 boxes a day. If you work on a Sunday, then you will still only make 100 boxes. Your productivity doesn't double? Why should you get paid double?

Labor Productivity = Total Output/Total Man-Hours

Quantify Man hours = labour cost

From the above EG say it costs $1 labour cost per box on single time. $100 per day

With penalty rate x2 it costs $2 labour cost per box $200 per day

Productivity single time = 100 / 100 = 1x

Productivity penalty rate = 100 / 200 = 0.5x

Productivity is halved on Sunday. Employ 1 more person casually on Sun (assuming no PR) and get another 100 boxes for the same Labour cost. Community has 1 less unemployed person, so unemployment has declined & Govt gets more tax and is spending less on welfare. This one person has more spendable income etc etc

Nice try Swaggie. I know you know otherwise. Suffice to say that if productivity was measured against the cost of labour rather than time displacement there would never have been any productivity gains at all over the last two centuries. Wages rise because of total factor productivity gains, not the other way around.

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Very funny Scotty, now beam down my clothes.

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crocodile

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Re: Message To Productivity Commission
Reply #73 - Sep 21^st, 2015 at 11:06pm

Quote:

I can see where Swag is coming from. Sadly I think there are more disadvantages than advantages to cutting penalty rates

That's the rub. There are so many burdens and impediments to running a business today. The productivity commission for some reason chooses to look at only one element. To forget about compliance costs, regulatory and statutory obligations, OH&S, Workcover, Payroll tax, ASIC, BAS and a multitude of others is to ignore a herd of elephants in the room all for the sake a mouse.

Despite the remonstrations of the leftists that pervade this board it is likely that abolition would eventually result in further employment over time. The unfortunate part is that the gradual rise comes only to the deprivation of those that are employed. Merely taking a pay cut in order to share jobs around. Governments, we hope work towards lifting the living standards of the population rather than working for their diminution.

This is a very lazy approach from the productivity commission, especially when they have nothing to say on the current state of productivity.

Funny thing about all this is that the recent scramble for slowing wages growth is all down to a decade and a half of falling productivity. Not a word from the lazy pricks.

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Very funny Scotty, now beam down my clothes.

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Johnsmith Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 4716 Gender:	Re: Message To Productivity Commission Reply #74 - Sep 21^st, 2015 at 11:09pm crocodile wrote on Sep 21^st, 2015 at 11:06pm: it is likely that abolition would eventually result in further employment over time. it is just as likely that employment remain the same ... I do agree with all your other points though
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