Australian Politics Forum - Message To Productivity Commission

Swagman

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Re: Message To Productivity Commission
Reply #90 - Sep 23^rd, 2015 at 8:59am

Quote:

Swagman, I always thought there were 7 days in a week. With the weekend being the main days people have off. Now if and I say if, you want people to work weekends. Thus the need to pay penalty rates, and rightly so. Even for the unemployed. Wink

That was fine in the 60s and 70s Crook when the spectre of the aging population was off the radar and the barriers of distance made Australia a Truebeliever's paradise.

The world stage has changed. Asia is now an industrial powerhouse and the Internet has put global retailers at the touch of a finger. Australia is no longer isolated. Australian business and heavy industry now has to compete with the world's businesses and heavy industries.

The world doesn't give a crap about weekends and public holidays

. If Australia wants to compete in a Global world it has to adapt. IR has to adapt with it.

Australia cannot afford the petty extravagances of a bygone era. Australia's productivity funded these extravagances but it's now taking a duck dive and unless we adapt Australia will take a dive with it.

Geezus, you Leftists have the hide to call Liberals conservatives? You Truebelievers are the real conservatives. Huh

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stunspore Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 5097 Gender:	Re: Message To Productivity Commission Reply #91 - Sep 23^rd, 2015 at 11:36am In other words, to compete globally, drop worker wages to $2 per day.
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Swagman Gold Member Offline Beware of cheap imitations...... Posts: 15095 Illawarra NSW Gender:	Re: Message To Productivity Commission Reply #92 - Sep 23^rd, 2015 at 12:17pm stunspore wrote on Sep 23^rd, 2015 at 11:36am: In other words, to compete globally, drop worker wages to $2 per day. In other words.....
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Grappler Deep State Feller Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 85406 Always was always will be HOME Gender:	Re: Message To Productivity Commission Reply #93 - Sep 23^rd, 2015 at 9:56pm We don't want to compete with the whole world of peasants out there - we just want a fair go in Australia. I don't recall anywhere signing up to a contest with poor people worldwide. If government want to do that - or business - let them pay for it. Thanks for coming...
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crocodile Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 6683 Gender:	Re: Message To Productivity Commission Reply #94 - Sep 23^rd, 2015 at 10:07pm stunspore wrote on Sep 23^rd, 2015 at 11:36am: In other words, to compete globally, drop worker wages to $2 per day. Or get productivity growth back to where it was before the decade and a half long slide
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Grappler Deep State Feller

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Re: Message To Productivity Commission
Reply #95 - Sep 23^rd, 2015 at 10:12pm

crocodile wrote on Sep 23^rd, 2015 at 10:07pm:

stunspore wrote on Sep 23^rd, 2015 at 11:36am:

In other words, to compete globally, drop worker wages to $2 per day.

Or get productivity growth back to where it was before the decade and a half long slide

Real productivity, as in manufactured goods good enough to sell..

I'm off the watch Blood On the Snow - Russia's War.

You learn a hell of a lot from reviewing history of Russia, Britain and the United States - ever mistake we are trying out here............... they were way in advance of us....

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“Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.”
― John Adams

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Swagman

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Re: Message To Productivity Commission
Reply #96 - Sep 24^th, 2015 at 8:54am

crocodile wrote on Sep 23^rd, 2015 at 10:07pm:

stunspore wrote on Sep 23^rd, 2015 at 11:36am:

In other words, to compete globally, drop worker wages to $2 per day.

Or get productivity growth back to where it was before the decade and a half long slide

How would you do that Croc?

Trying to alter the indoctrinated mantra from penalising business for trying to compete, to rewarding individual efficiencies perhaps?

Collective work agreements don't do this. They reward inefficiency. Unproductive workers can hide amongst the more productive.

Individual work contracts reward individual productivity. Labor & the Unions trashed AWAs. Labor and the Unions rejected productivity improvements just as they are now trying to block FTAs.

Grappler Deep State Feller wrote on Sep 23^rd, 2015 at 10:12pm:

Real productivity, as in manufactured goods good enough to sell..

That's the point. The Australian manufacturer has to compete against other manufacturers. As Croc pointed out Australian manufacturers have a plethora of overheads..........

crocodile wrote on Sep 21^st, 2015 at 11:06pm:

That's the rub. There are so many burdens and impediments to running a business today. The productivity commission for some reason chooses to look at only one element. To forget about compliance costs, regulatory and statutory obligations, OH&S, Workcover, Payroll tax, ASIC, BAS and a multitude of others is to ignore a herd of elephants in the room all for the sake a mouse.

The bottom line is........with all that added on crap + illogical penalty rates to pay, manufacturers and lots of other business have just given up. Who is going to risk their hard earned in that scenario?

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Phemanderac Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 3507 Gender:	Re: Message To Productivity Commission Reply #97 - Sep 24^th, 2015 at 9:00am Swagman wrote on Sep 24^th, 2015 at 8:54am: manufacturers and lots of other business have just given up. There's the big problem right there, a typically un-Australian attitude... If they give up then we are no doubt better off without them... Make room for some real employers.
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Swagman

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Re: Message To Productivity Commission
Reply #98 - Sep 24^th, 2015 at 9:41am

Phemanderac wrote on Sep 24^th, 2015 at 9:00am:

Swagman wrote on Sep 24^th, 2015 at 8:54am:

manufacturers and lots of other business have just given up.

There's the big problem right there, a typically un-Australian attitude...

If they give up then we are no doubt better off without them...

Make room for some real employers.

Are you putting your hand up?

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Bam

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Re: Message To Productivity Commission
Reply #99 - Sep 24^th, 2015 at 10:01am

Swagman wrote on Sep 21^st, 2015 at 8:55am:

crocodile wrote on Sep 20^th, 2015 at 12:19pm:

Just for our edification, could you let us all know how penalty rates drain productivity.

OK

Swagman wrote on Sep 19^th, 2015 at 3:47pm:

If your job is making boxes and you make 100 boxes a day. If you work on a Sunday, then you will still only make 100 boxes. Your productivity doesn't double? Why should you get paid double?

Labor Productivity = Total Output/Total Man-Hours

Quantify Man hours = labour cost

From the above EG say it costs $1 labour cost per box on single time. $100 per day

With penalty rate x2 it costs $2 labour cost per box $200 per day

Productivity single time = 100 / 100 = 1x

Productivity penalty rate = 100 / 200 = 0.5x

Productivity is halved on Sunday. Employ 1 more person casually on Sun (assuming no PR) and get another 100 boxes for the same Labour cost. Community has 1 less unemployed person, so unemployment has declined & Govt gets more tax and is spending less on welfare. This one person has more spendable income etc etc

A silly example. Someone making 100 hypothetical boxes isn't likely to be working in the hospitality industry.

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You are not entitled to your opinion. You are only entitled to hold opinions that you can defend through sound, reasoned argument.

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Jovial Monk Gold Member Offline Dogs not cats! Posts: 47794 Gender:	Re: Message To Productivity Commission Reply #100 - Sep 24^th, 2015 at 10:05am Productivity is output per unit of labor. Wages don’t come into it. That is twice you have tried to confuse cost with productivity in this thread.
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Grappler Deep State Feller

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Re: Message To Productivity Commission
Reply #101 - Sep 24^th, 2015 at 10:09am

So, Swag - are you demanding that every employer who benefits from chopping penalties MUST employ another person? and be penalised if they don't?

That'll solve the whole argument, neh?

Downe at Ye Olde Coffee Shoppe:-

"Got another four cappucinos to make here!"

"OK- get in line behind the other six baristas waiting for their turn at the machine."

"OK".

Excerpt from "The Perils of Over-Employment In Small Business" by Boks Kuttah.

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“Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.”
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Bam

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Re: Message To Productivity Commission
Reply #102 - Sep 24^th, 2015 at 10:12am

This is what employers keep demanding:
Quote:

* Sunday penalty rates that are not part of overtime or shift work be reduced to Saturday rates for the hospitality, entertainment, retail, restaurants and cafe industries.
* Lower minimum wage.

This is what employers are offering to give up in exchange:
Quote:

The employers have to fill that second box with fair and reasonable offers of compensation so workers are not left worse off. Until they do, they are wasting their time.

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Swagman

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Re: Message To Productivity Commission
Reply #103 - Sep 24^th, 2015 at 10:29am

Bam wrote on Sep 24^th, 2015 at 10:01am:

Swagman wrote on Sep 21^st, 2015 at 8:55am:

crocodile wrote on Sep 20^th, 2015 at 12:19pm:

Just for our edification, could you let us all know how penalty rates drain productivity.

OK

Swagman wrote on Sep 19^th, 2015 at 3:47pm:

If your job is making boxes and you make 100 boxes a day. If you work on a Sunday, then you will still only make 100 boxes. Your productivity doesn't double? Why should you get paid double?

Labor Productivity = Total Output/Total Man-Hours

Quantify Man hours = labour cost

From the above EG say it costs $1 labour cost per box on single time. $100 per day

With penalty rate x2 it costs $2 labour cost per box $200 per day

Productivity single time = 100 / 100 = 1x

Productivity penalty rate = 100 / 200 = 0.5x

Productivity is halved on Sunday. Employ 1 more person casually on Sun (assuming no PR) and get another 100 boxes for the same Labour cost. Community has 1 less unemployed person, so unemployment has declined & Govt gets more tax and is spending less on welfare. This one person has more spendable income etc etc

A silly example. Someone making 100 hypothetical boxes isn't likely to be working in the hospitality industry.

So what? It's simplified to make the point easier to comprehend. Besides, the job might be to make sandwiches or pizzas? The scenario is the same.

In that Box factory example. Removing the penalty rate enables the Box Factory to produce more boxes for the same labour cost.

How? The previously unemployed person will come in and make an additional 100 boxes per day for the penalty hours currently paid to existing employed persons for producing nothing.

That would make the factory more competitive. It can win more business (increase its demand), produce more and employ even more people.

What's 'silly' about that? Huh

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Jovial Monk Gold Member Offline Dogs not cats! Posts: 47794 Gender:	Re: Message To Productivity Commission Reply #104 - Sep 24^th, 2015 at 10:33am The company would only do that if it needed another 100 boxes a week. Nothing to do with penalty rates
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