Australian Politics Forum - There is something very wrong with our JUSTICE sys

cods

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Re: There is something very wrong with our JUSTICE sys
Reply #15 - Sep 26^th, 2015 at 8:36am

Grappler Deep State Feller wrote on Sep 26^th, 2015 at 7:17am:

Cods - the law says that a jury can only determine guilt on the matter(s) before the court - not on reputation etc.

I do KNOW that grap....I am just saying what the Solicitor General said and I agree with him..

You will have fought savagely for the right of a woman in a rape case to not be pilloried for past sexual conduct, which has nothing to do with the case before the court - that of a specific incident.

why should a VICTIM be PILLORIED????...

I AM TALKING ABOUT THE VILLAIN>>BEING PROTECTED

No - past history is only taken into account in sentencing, because the law requires conviction on properly proven fact relating directly to the incident under scrutiny - not to anything else.

I am talking about the jury not the SENTENCING>>

why should a villain be able to claim he was abused as a child if his/her past is not allowed..

We already have a Star Chamber here that even leads to people being charged - the hidden police CNI system that allows any interpretation against an individual at any time, and has done so.

We also have endemic false accusation and false conviction based on bias, presumption, assumption, discrimination, innuendo, perjury, and inference rather than on fully proven fact in the lowest courts in the land - those run by the corrupt magistrates.

oh come off it????.... they are so rare it isnt even funny.....
just because a few do the wrong thing or make mistakes..

why does that mean the majority get a free kick...????..

dont tell me you are one of those who supports a dodgy teams player for a lifting tackle but not when its a player from the team you support... Roll Eyes

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cods

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Re: There is something very wrong with our JUSTICE sys
Reply #16 - Sep 26^th, 2015 at 8:45am

Redmond Neck wrote on Sep 26^th, 2015 at 8:35am:

Gnads wrote on Sep 26^th, 2015 at 8:27am:

Grappler Deep State Feller wrote on Sep 26^th, 2015 at 7:17am:

Cods - the law says that a jury can only determine guilt on the matter(s) before the court - not on reputation etc.

You will have fought savagely for the right of a woman in a rape case to not be pilloried for past sexual conduct, which has nothing to do with the case before the court - that of a specific incident.

No - past history is only taken into account in sentencing, because the law requires conviction on properly proven fact relating directly to the incident under scrutiny - not to anything else.

We already have a Star Chamber here that even leads to people being charged - the hidden police CNI system that allows any interpretation against an individual at any time, and has done so.

We also have endemic false accusation and false conviction based on bias, presumption, assumption, discrimination, innuendo, perjury, and inference rather than on fully proven fact in the lowest courts in the land - those run by the corrupt magistrates.

So in that case then no consideration of how they were treated as children can be used as an excuse ....

the point that has been previously raised.

No admission of past record .... then no admission of childhood abuse as an excuse or defence.

Am I wrong in saying that the Judge can take into account past criminal history when sentencing? That is after the perp has been found guilty.

he /she would only be sentenced IF THEY WERE FOUND GUILTY...

the guilty one could have the most horrendous record but can only be sentenced on the findings of this particular charge....

the trouble with the jury not knowing any previous is they could be misguided into believing butter wouldnt melt in this persons mouth.....

as grap has said.. at one stage women who were raped or cried rape where pilloried in court every corner their life style was mentioned...very one sided...yet it was legal...

we seem to protect villains which is fine in most cases but not all...yet the rules/.laws cover all..

to my mind some people forfeit their rights through pure behavior.

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Muttley Senior Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 483	Re: There is something very wrong with our JUSTICE sys Reply #17 - Sep 26^th, 2015 at 10:01am As the saying goes, *“the law is an ass”*. The Judiciary in Australia and UK are a bunch of softcock, politely correct idiots. It’s been that way for decades, the police catch them and the Courts set them free.
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Unforgiven

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Re: There is something very wrong with our JUSTICE sys
Reply #18 - Sep 26^th, 2015 at 12:13pm

Muttley wrote on Sep 26^th, 2015 at 10:01am:

As the saying goes, “the law is an ass”. The Judiciary in Australia and UK are a bunch of softcock, politely correct idiots. It’s been that way for decades, the police catch them and the Courts set them free.

Why don't you turn on the light instead of cursing the darkness. If your belief is that the law is wrong do something instead of just barking aimlessly and pointlessly.

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mariacostel

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Re: There is something very wrong with our JUSTICE sys
Reply #19 - Sep 26^th, 2015 at 1:23pm

cods wrote on Sep 25^th, 2015 at 6:15pm:

http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/news/nsw/tony-jones-william-tyrrell-person-of-i...

this person is given 2 years for child molestation...unbelievable..

but wait theres more.... Angry

a mother who stood by whilst her defacto beat her child to such a stage he thought he had killed him...and she did nothing..

the child is now disabled...

is sentenced to 2 years.....

a MOTHER............ words escape me...

2 years is an insult in anyone language...we all know it will be lucky if they serve even 1 year...

the fabric of this country isnt being destroyed by ICE... more like weak pathetic courts. Angry

It would be instructive for you to observe that the information you get from the media is very limited and usually hysterical and/or biased. You will see that some cases of child abuse gets sentences of almost 20 years. One guy in SA got 36 years. And then others get 2 years. The hint may be that sentences are given that fit the crime. These judges are not out of touch at all. In fact, they are much more in touch than you or I are. They see this day in, day out. They see the minor offences and the appalling other end of the scale and judge accordingly.

One day go to the courts and watch a major trial the while way through. Then observe how the media reports are at best sensationalised, if not flat-out misrepresenting.

A major research project used normal non-legally trained civilians to watch trials and then to assessed sentences themselves. In almost every case the civilians produced sentences in line with the judge. That is because they possessed ALL the facts and not the SMH there paragraph version of it.

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mariacostel

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Re: There is something very wrong with our JUSTICE sys
Reply #20 - Sep 26^th, 2015 at 1:26pm

cods wrote on Sep 26^th, 2015 at 6:54am:

Grappler Deep State Feller wrote on Sep 25^th, 2015 at 6:24pm:

Now you are getting onside with my call for a Royal Commission Into The Judiciary and Into Jurisprudence..... this is one side of the question - the other is the amazing prevalence of false conviction and dismal abrogation of legal rights as a matter of course in the 'courts'.

These 'courts' are not worthy of the name as they currently operate, and are nothing more than legitimised theft of rights, money, and reputations on whim.

They would do any Third World dictatorship proud.....

Sol.Gen. Michael Sexton SC has called for juries to be given details of past convictions ...can anyone understand why a murderers history is kept from the jury until the day after the trial ends????...

if a jury can take into account a person claiming they were abused as a child... then why not their record ???????????????????????????????????..

I am sorry it doesnt make sense to me...

2 years in anyones book is an INSULT... these people who damage kids.. should never be allowed to have more children...sterilising should be mandatory they have given up that right of passage..

at least 10 years nothing will undo what they have done... but 2 years has got to be totally meaningless...

There is very good reason for it. It is called 'the presumption of innocence'. A prior conviction is not proof of a current offence and is considered to be potentially prejudicial and if you want to know why that is the case then just read this thread. It is full of people who would convict a person of a current charge on the basis of a previous conviction.

It is controversial, but if the crown cannot make their case without bringing up the defendant's previous history, then their case is too weak.

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mariacostel

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Re: There is something very wrong with our JUSTICE sys
Reply #21 - Sep 26^th, 2015 at 1:31pm

cods wrote on Sep 26^th, 2015 at 8:45am:

Redmond Neck wrote on Sep 26^th, 2015 at 8:35am:

Gnads wrote on Sep 26^th, 2015 at 8:27am:

Grappler Deep State Feller wrote on Sep 26^th, 2015 at 7:17am:

Cods - the law says that a jury can only determine guilt on the matter(s) before the court - not on reputation etc.

You will have fought savagely for the right of a woman in a rape case to not be pilloried for past sexual conduct, which has nothing to do with the case before the court - that of a specific incident.

No - past history is only taken into account in sentencing, because the law requires conviction on properly proven fact relating directly to the incident under scrutiny - not to anything else.

We already have a Star Chamber here that even leads to people being charged - the hidden police CNI system that allows any interpretation against an individual at any time, and has done so.

We also have endemic false accusation and false conviction based on bias, presumption, assumption, discrimination, innuendo, perjury, and inference rather than on fully proven fact in the lowest courts in the land - those run by the corrupt magistrates.

So in that case then no consideration of how they were treated as children can be used as an excuse ....

the point that has been previously raised.

No admission of past record .... then no admission of childhood abuse as an excuse or defence.

Am I wrong in saying that the Judge can take into account past criminal history when sentencing? That is after the perp has been found guilty.

he /she would only be sentenced IF THEY WERE FOUND GUILTY...

the guilty one could have the most horrendous record but can only be sentenced on the findings of this particular charge....

the trouble with the jury not knowing any previous is they could be misguided into believing butter wouldnt melt in this persons mouth.....

as grap has said.. at one stage women who were raped or cried rape where pilloried in court every corner their life style was mentioned...very one sided...yet it was legal...

we seem to protect villains which is fine in most cases but not all...yet the rules/.laws cover all..

to my mind some people forfeit their rights through pure behavior.

The problem with much of what you just wrote is that it is PRE-judgement. Our entire legal system is based on presumption of innocence. This is in place to protect the innocent from wrongful conviction and must be defended at all costs. Yes, some guilty will go free, but that is always preferable to the innocent going to jail.

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miketrees

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Re: There is something very wrong with our JUSTICE sys
Reply #22 - Sep 26^th, 2015 at 2:59pm

Yes, some guilty will go free, but that is always preferable to the innocent going to jail.

This bit is a tiny bit ok, but I think the whole thread is about people that have been found guilty being given inappropriate punishment.

I know its an old joke but its still true,,, we have a legal system NOT a justice system.

The problem with our legal system is,, its full of lawyers.

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mariacostel

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Re: There is something very wrong with our JUSTICE sys
Reply #23 - Sep 26^th, 2015 at 4:01pm

miketrees wrote on Sep 26^th, 2015 at 2:59pm:

Yes, some guilty will go free, but that is always preferable to the innocent going to jail.

This bit is a tiny bit ok, but I think the whole thread is about people that have been found guilty being given inappropriate punishment.

I know its an old joke but its still true,,, we have a legal system NOT a justice system.

The problem with our legal system is,, its full of lawyers.

'Appropriate punishment' can only be determined by people in full possession of the facts - ie no one outside the court-room. Judges have sentencing guidelines to work with as well as the ACts of parliament. But their primary guiding principle is that two people who have committed essentially the same crime should receive the same penalty. In fact, appeals are often won on that basis alone.

Most people don't truly understand what 'justice' even is. They think of it largely in medieval terms such as revenge. This country's justice system is arguably among the best in the world. Look at the USA and its monstrous scales of penalties where you can get 40 years jail for 'inappropriate contact' with a minor but 20 years for murder.

Give me our system any day of the week.

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Muttley

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Re: There is something very wrong with our JUSTICE sys
Reply #24 - Sep 26^th, 2015 at 8:17pm

YUnforgiven wrote on Sep 26^th, 2015 at 12:13pm:

Muttley wrote on Sep 26^th, 2015 at 10:01am:

As the saying goes, “the law is an ass”. The Judiciary in Australia and UK are a bunch of softcock, politely correct idiots. It’s been that way for decades, the police catch them and the Courts set them free.

Why don't you turn on the light instead of cursing the darkness. If your belief is that the law is wrong do something instead of just barking aimlessly and pointlessly.

How do you know I haven't? I spent 28 years "doing something" and I am not a politician, so I'll leave it to your limited imagination to formulate a strategy to solve the problem, instead of posting inane, vague pearls of wisdom which mean absolutely sweet FA.........

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Unforgiven

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Re: There is something very wrong with our JUSTICE sys
Reply #25 - Sep 26^th, 2015 at 10:13pm

Muttley wrote on Sep 26^th, 2015 at 8:17pm:

YUnforgiven wrote on Sep 26^th, 2015 at 12:13pm:

Muttley wrote on Sep 26^th, 2015 at 10:01am:

As the saying goes, “the law is an ass”. The Judiciary in Australia and UK are a bunch of softcock, politely correct idiots. It’s been that way for decades, the police catch them and the Courts set them free.

Why don't you turn on the light instead of cursing the darkness. If your belief is that the law is wrong do something instead of just barking aimlessly and pointlessly.

How do you know I haven't? I spent 28 years "doing something" and I am not a politician, so I'll leave it to your limited imagination to formulate a strategy to solve the problem, instead of posting inane, vague pearls of wisdom which mean absolutely sweet FA.........

You would benefit from anger management instruction. At the very least the quality of your cursing of the darkness could improve.

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Grappler Deep State Feller Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 85369 Always was always will be HOME Gender:	Re: There is something very wrong with our JUSTICE sys Reply #26 - Sep 26^th, 2015 at 11:57pm The saying "the Law is an ass' was meant to indicate that it was viewed as a beast of burden by anyone and everyone... not that it was stupid.
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Grappler Deep State Feller

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Re: There is something very wrong with our JUSTICE sys
Reply #27 - Sep 27^th, 2015 at 12:04am

Redmond Neck wrote on Sep 26^th, 2015 at 8:35am:

Gnads wrote on Sep 26^th, 2015 at 8:27am:

Grappler Deep State Feller wrote on Sep 26^th, 2015 at 7:17am:

Cods - the law says that a jury can only determine guilt on the matter(s) before the court - not on reputation etc.

You will have fought savagely for the right of a woman in a rape case to not be pilloried for past sexual conduct, which has nothing to do with the case before the court - that of a specific incident.

No - past history is only taken into account in sentencing, because the law requires conviction on properly proven fact relating directly to the incident under scrutiny - not to anything else.

We already have a Star Chamber here that even leads to people being charged - the hidden police CNI system that allows any interpretation against an individual at any time, and has done so.

We also have endemic false accusation and false conviction based on bias, presumption, assumption, discrimination, innuendo, perjury, and inference rather than on fully proven fact in the lowest courts in the land - those run by the corrupt magistrates.

So in that case then no consideration of how they were treated as children can be used as an excuse ....

the point that has been previously raised.

No admission of past record .... then no admission of childhood abuse as an excuse or defence.

Am I wrong in saying that the Judge can take into account past criminal history when sentencing? That is after the perp has been found guilty.

You are 100% correct. cods has it wrong - the jury will not hear of past abuse etc - the sentencing judge will hear that as mitigation for penalty for the conviction, which conviction is up to the jury.

If a bullshit line is being spun about 'I was sexually abused by my pet hamster at the age of three and then by my ferrets at puberty' - I doubt the judge will accept it.

The girl who did the primary school shooting in the US years ago has tried to get parole by saying she was abused by her father - she never brought that up before.... and the parole board refused to accept it.

It isn't just cut and dried, and everyone knows there are people who will claim abuse or similar to try to get out of something.

That's the theory anyway.

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“Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.”
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Muttley

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Re: There is something very wrong with our JUSTICE sys
Reply #28 - Sep 27^th, 2015 at 8:53am

Grappler Deep State Feller wrote on Sep 26^th, 2015 at 11:57pm:

The saying "the Law is an ass' was meant to indicate that it was viewed as a beast of burden by anyone and everyone... not that it was stupid.

However, the usual interpretation of it is that it provides no natural justice.........go back to google.

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mariacostel

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Re: There is something very wrong with our JUSTICE sys
Reply #29 - Sep 27^th, 2015 at 9:07am

Muttley wrote on Sep 27^th, 2015 at 8:53am:

Grappler Deep State Feller wrote on Sep 26^th, 2015 at 11:57pm:

The saying "the Law is an ass' was meant to indicate that it was viewed as a beast of burden by anyone and everyone... not that it was stupid.

However, the usual interpretation of it is that it provides no natural justice.........go back to google.

'natural justice' is a curious thing in that it s defined subjectively. One of the pillars of our legal system is that justice is applied dispassionately and evenly and... fairly.

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