Australian Politics Forum - There is something very wrong with our JUSTICE sys

cods

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Re: There is something very wrong with our JUSTICE sys
Reply #30 - Sep 27^th, 2015 at 9:11am

Grappler Deep State Feller wrote on Sep 27^th, 2015 at 12:04am:

Redmond Neck wrote on Sep 26^th, 2015 at 8:35am:

Gnads wrote on Sep 26^th, 2015 at 8:27am:

Grappler Deep State Feller wrote on Sep 26^th, 2015 at 7:17am:

Cods - the law says that a jury can only determine guilt on the matter(s) before the court - not on reputation etc.

You will have fought savagely for the right of a woman in a rape case to not be pilloried for past sexual conduct, which has nothing to do with the case before the court - that of a specific incident.

No - past history is only taken into account in sentencing, because the law requires conviction on properly proven fact relating directly to the incident under scrutiny - not to anything else.

We already have a Star Chamber here that even leads to people being charged - the hidden police CNI system that allows any interpretation against an individual at any time, and has done so.

We also have endemic false accusation and false conviction based on bias, presumption, assumption, discrimination, innuendo, perjury, and inference rather than on fully proven fact in the lowest courts in the land - those run by the corrupt magistrates.

So in that case then no consideration of how they were treated as children can be used as an excuse ....

the point that has been previously raised.

No admission of past record .... then no admission of childhood abuse as an excuse or defence.

Am I wrong in saying that the Judge can take into account past criminal history when sentencing? That is after the perp has been found guilty.

You are 100% correct. cods has it wrong - the jury will not hear of past abuse etc - the sentencing judge will hear that as mitigation for penalty for the conviction, which conviction is up to the jury.

If a bullshit line is being spun about 'I was sexually abused by my pet hamster at the age of three and then by my ferrets at puberty' - I doubt the judge will accept it.

The girl who did the primary school shooting in the US years ago has tried to get parole by saying she was abused by her father - she never brought that up before.... and the parole board refused to accept it.

It isn't just cut and dried, and everyone knows there are people who will claim abuse or similar to try to get out of something.

That's the theory anyway.

YOU ARE MISSING THE POINT...

its the jury that brings in the GUILT OR NOT GUILTY VERDICT..

how can a judge sentence someone on his past record....

if he is not being tried on his past record.....

give us a break... a man is charged with rape... one case of rape..

he has a past record of multiple rape....

the jury find him guilty of one rape...

the judge then sentences him to jail for his past rapes

is that what you are saying/???????

we are not talking about America there system changes with the State...

no one is suggesting the jury decide what the jail term will be....what this SC is suggesting is that in serious cases the jury should be made aware of previous....

you kn ow I think you would be devastated if your daughter lost a case of rape on some small technicality only to find out in the news the next day this person had been changed with rape over many years....and was a repeat offender...

I know I would be as angry as hell....there are many people walking our streets who have really no right to be doing so...but those who let them out are not allowed to know what they are capable of doing....

and they do use the excuse mechanism like it or not... the jury hears it.....hes had drug problems...he was abused for years...just because you say one jury didnt buy it doesnt mean none of them do..

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cods

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Re: There is something very wrong with our JUSTICE sys
Reply #31 - Sep 27^th, 2015 at 9:13am

mariacostel wrote on Sep 27^th, 2015 at 9:07am:

Muttley wrote on Sep 27^th, 2015 at 8:53am:

Grappler Deep State Feller wrote on Sep 26^th, 2015 at 11:57pm:

The saying "the Law is an ass' was meant to indicate that it was viewed as a beast of burden by anyone and everyone... not that it was stupid.

However, the usual interpretation of it is that it provides no natural justice.........go back to google.

'natural justice' is a curious thing in that it s defined subjectively. One of the pillars of our legal system is that justice is applied dispassionately and evenly and... fairly.

well two years for sexually abusing a child and 2 years for standing by while your defacto send your child into a world of damage is beyond my comprehension of what justice is.........if they had robbed a bank they would have got more...it doesnt do it for me.. Angry

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Very_Vinnie

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Re: There is something very wrong with our JUSTICE sys
Reply #32 - Sep 27^th, 2015 at 9:35am

Redmond Neck wrote on Sep 26^th, 2015 at 8:35am:

Gnads wrote on Sep 26^th, 2015 at 8:27am:

Grappler Deep State Feller wrote on Sep 26^th, 2015 at 7:17am:

Cods - the law says that a jury can only determine guilt on the matter(s) before the court - not on reputation etc.

You will have fought savagely for the right of a woman in a rape case to not be pilloried for past sexual conduct, which has nothing to do with the case before the court - that of a specific incident.

No - past history is only taken into account in sentencing, because the law requires conviction on properly proven fact relating directly to the incident under scrutiny - not to anything else.

We already have a Star Chamber here that even leads to people being charged - the hidden police CNI system that allows any interpretation against an individual at any time, and has done so.

We also have endemic false accusation and false conviction based on bias, presumption, assumption, discrimination, innuendo, perjury, and inference rather than on fully proven fact in the lowest courts in the land - those run by the corrupt magistrates.

So in that case then no consideration of how they were treated as children can be used as an excuse ....

the point that has been previously raised.

No admission of past record .... then no admission of childhood abuse as an excuse or defence.

Am I wrong in saying that the Judge can take into account past criminal history when sentencing ? That is after the perp has been found guilty.

Yes

This is ABSOLUTELY correct

Jury members and the "man on the street" are NOTORIOUS for letting EMOTION get in the way of JUSTICE when it comes to determining balance in sentencing

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Muttley

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Re: There is something very wrong with our JUSTICE sys
Reply #33 - Sep 27^th, 2015 at 11:28am

mariacostel wrote on Sep 27^th, 2015 at 9:07am:

Muttley wrote on Sep 27^th, 2015 at 8:53am:

Grappler Deep State Feller wrote on Sep 26^th, 2015 at 11:57pm:

The saying "the Law is an ass' was meant to indicate that it was viewed as a beast of burden by anyone and everyone... not that it was stupid.

However, the usual interpretation of it is that it provides no natural justice.........go back to google.

'natural justice' is a curious thing in that it s defined subjectively. One of the pillars of our legal system is that justice is applied dispassionately and evenly and... fairly.

But we know that is not always the case.

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bogarde73 Gold Member Offline Anti-Global & Contra Mundum Posts: 18443 Gender:	Re: There is something very wrong with our JUSTICE sys Reply #34 - Sep 27^th, 2015 at 11:31am Yep there is something wrong . . .and it's called lawyers.
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miketrees Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 6490 Gender:	Re: There is something very wrong with our JUSTICE sys Reply #35 - Sep 27^th, 2015 at 11:43am I would have to think long and hard about ever trying to use our legal system. Even my lawyer told me, some times its better to work "outside the law"
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aussie100percent Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 565 Gender:	Re: There is something very wrong with our JUSTICE sys Reply #36 - Sep 27^th, 2015 at 11:47am bogarde73 wrote on Sep 27^th, 2015 at 11:31am: Yep there is something wrong . . .and it's called lawyers. F..F..SAKE How would you be if your lawyer was aussie the Indian taxi drive... F.U.C.K.E.D
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perceptions_now Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 11694 Perth WA Gender:	Re: There is something very wrong with our JUSTICE sys Reply #37 - Sep 27^th, 2015 at 12:00pm There is something very wrong with our JUSTICE system! I agree, there are "some" things, with the Justice system, which are neither Just, nor Right!! AND, it is not just the Justice system, which has gone wrong (to the dark side)!!!
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Grappler Deep State Feller

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Re: There is something very wrong with our JUSTICE sys
Reply #38 - Sep 27^th, 2015 at 4:45pm

cods wrote on Sep 27^th, 2015 at 9:11am:

Grappler Deep State Feller wrote on Sep 27^th, 2015 at 12:04am:

Redmond Neck wrote on Sep 26^th, 2015 at 8:35am:

Gnads wrote on Sep 26^th, 2015 at 8:27am:

Grappler Deep State Feller wrote on Sep 26^th, 2015 at 7:17am:

Cods - the law says that a jury can only determine guilt on the matter(s) before the court - not on reputation etc.

You will have fought savagely for the right of a woman in a rape case to not be pilloried for past sexual conduct, which has nothing to do with the case before the court - that of a specific incident.

No - past history is only taken into account in sentencing, because the law requires conviction on properly proven fact relating directly to the incident under scrutiny - not to anything else.

We already have a Star Chamber here that even leads to people being charged - the hidden police CNI system that allows any interpretation against an individual at any time, and has done so.

We also have endemic false accusation and false conviction based on bias, presumption, assumption, discrimination, innuendo, perjury, and inference rather than on fully proven fact in the lowest courts in the land - those run by the corrupt magistrates.

So in that case then no consideration of how they were treated as children can be used as an excuse ....

the point that has been previously raised.

No admission of past record .... then no admission of childhood abuse as an excuse or defence.

Am I wrong in saying that the Judge can take into account past criminal history when sentencing? That is after the perp has been found guilty.

You are 100% correct. cods has it wrong - the jury will not hear of past abuse etc - the sentencing judge will hear that as mitigation for penalty for the conviction, which conviction is up to the jury.

If a bullshit line is being spun about 'I was sexually abused by my pet hamster at the age of three and then by my ferrets at puberty' - I doubt the judge will accept it.

The girl who did the primary school shooting in the US years ago has tried to get parole by saying she was abused by her father - she never brought that up before.... and the parole board refused to accept it.

It isn't just cut and dried, and everyone knows there are people who will claim abuse or similar to try to get out of something.

That's the theory anyway.

YOU ARE MISSING THE POINT...

its the jury that brings in the GUILT OR NOT GUILTY VERDICT..

how can a judge sentence someone on his past record....

if he is not being tried on his past record.....

give us a break... a man is charged with rape... one case of rape..

he has a past record of multiple rape....

the jury find him guilty of one rape...

the judge then sentences him to jail for his past rapes

is that what you are saying/???????

we are not talking about America there system changes with the State...

no one is suggesting the jury decide what the jail term will be....what this SC is suggesting is that in serious cases the jury should be made aware of previous....

you kn ow I think you would be devastated if your daughter lost a case of rape on some small technicality only to find out in the news the next day this person had been changed with rape over many years....and was a repeat offender...

I know I would be as angry as hell....there are many people walking our streets who have really no right to be doing so...but those who let them out are not allowed to know what they are capable of doing....

and they do use the excuse mechanism like it or not... the jury hears it.....hes had drug problems...he was abused for years...just because you say one jury didnt buy it doesnt mean none of them do..

None of us is missing the point - we all know the jury finds one way or another ON THE FACTS OF THE MATTER ONLY - and the judge does the sentencing.

There was a famous sketch in which a jury foreman was asked to say why they'd found the defendant guilty - the foreman said "We think he is".

When challenged by the judge to explain, he said:-

"He looks guilty!"

and so on....

No - a jury should not hear any issue other than the current one before the court. In the case that a jury is enabled to make a recommendation on sentencing, it is only AFTER a finding of guilty that they may hear evidence of past offences etc.

That is why the media need to be kept on a tight rein in many cases, and are expressly forbidden to say the defendant had a long history of doing the same thing over and over.

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“Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.”
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red baron

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Re: There is something very wrong with our JUSTICE sys
Reply #39 - Sep 27^th, 2015 at 5:08pm

When the Justice system gives an offender Life for Murder and that offender stays behind bars for the rest of their life then you can tell me the Justice system is for real.

As it stands, it is a dog's breakfast where offenders' rights often over rides Justice for the victims.

The 'bleeding heart society' rules O.K.

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cods

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Re: There is something very wrong with our JUSTICE sys
Reply #40 - Sep 28^th, 2015 at 10:23am

red baron wrote on Sep 27^th, 2015 at 5:08pm:

When the Justice system gives an offender Life for Murder and that offender stays behind bars for the rest of their life then you can tell me the Justice system is for real.

As it stands, it is a dog's breakfast where offenders' rights often over rides Justice for the victims.

The 'bleeding heart society' rules O.K.

a member of my family is now working in the Corrective Services dept.. yep thats what is called these days... Roll Eyes

so I ,look forward then again I dont think I do...to hearing what pandering goes on behind locked "cell"doors.. Roll Eyes

..

I laugh at some of the judges I really do... they make judgements on what it says in a [law]book....they for the most part have never lived in the real world next door to real people who in some cases are capable of just about anything....

they live in ivory towers...shielded from the riff raff like thieves and vagabonds..by security that Mr and Mrs average can only dream about...

yet they have the call.....Monis was allowed out in the world even though he had 40 rape charges to face...not to mention allegations of being involved with a murder....

yet I have yet to see any member of the Law society be stood down...as a consequence of two people dying because of their actions..which means these same people are still in charge of making serious decisions
about bail and or jail terms....

the system is letting innocent people down left right and centre....it starts as far as I am concerned at the top.

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cods

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Re: There is something very wrong with our JUSTICE sys
Reply #41 - Sep 30^th, 2015 at 8:44am

http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/news/nsw/william-tyrrell-paedophile-person-of-i...

A PAEDOPHILE person of interest in the disappearance of William Tyrrell has a criminal record of more than 90 offences across NSW.

Anthony “Tony” Jones, 59, was finally jailed last week for an aggravated indecent assault on a minor.

However, before he was found guilty of preying on the defenceless child, Jones had a roll call of victims.

Jones’ 27-page criminal record, spanning four decades, reveals the dole recipient and part-time scrap metal salesman has struck a child, attacked women, escaped police custody, stolen and intimidated police.

Jones was a member of the Grandparents As Parents Again (GAPA) group that police believe harboured a paedophile ring operating on the mid-north coast when William was snatched.

He also owned a white older model station wagon, which Strike Force Rosann detectives impounded for forensic examination three days after Detective Inspector Gary Jubelin revealed police were seeking information about a vehicle matching its description.

On the morning tiny William vanished from his grandmother’s backyard in Kendall, near Port Macquarie, his mother spotted two older model vehicles parked across the road with the driver-side front windows wound down.

One was a silver or grey sedan and one was a white station wagon

Jones was convicted of hitting a child under 12 in November 1974 in his home town of Wellington.

His first conviction for escaping lawful custody came the following December when he was sentenced to 18 months hard labour in the Bathurst District Court. In the following years Jones was found guilty of a slew of criminal acts, including stealing and setting fire to motor vehicles, breaking and entering, and causing malicious injury.

In 1989 he was twice convicted of assaulting a woman.

In 1991, in Broken Hill Local Court, Jones was convicted of five serious charges including drug possession and obtaining property by deception. He was later found guilty of using a telecommunication service for offensive means.

90 chg rap sheet but its best we dont know anything about that... Roll Eyes

. hes just a naughty little boy. Angry

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mariacostel

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Re: There is something very wrong with our JUSTICE sys
Reply #42 - Sep 30^th, 2015 at 9:07am

The justice system is about how we deal with all offenders and those who are charged incorrectly. It has to deal with all manner of people and all manner of offences and it has to do so in a consistent and fair manner.

Cods, you express your disgust at a 2 years sentence for 'sexually abusing' a kid but those two words are the sum total of everything you know about what happened then. Now if you had been in court and in possession of the actual facts and not two simple but inciteful words you might hold a different opinion.

Remember that the media at its best provides headlines and trivia about cases. At its worst it actually lies. The reasons that judges sentence differently to how you would is not because of their training or the biases you think they have but because they are in possession of the actual facts while you are in possession of a few sentences written by a court reporter who was also not in court very often either.

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cods

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Re: There is something very wrong with our JUSTICE sys
Reply #43 - Sep 30^th, 2015 at 9:23am

mariacostel wrote on Sep 30^th, 2015 at 9:07am:

The justice system is about how we deal with all offenders and those who are charged incorrectly. It has to deal with all manner of people and all manner of offences and it has to do so in a consistent and fair manner.

Cods, you express your disgust at a 2 years sentence for 'sexually abusing' a kid but those two words are the sum total of everything you know about what happened then. Now if you had been in court and in possession of the actual facts and not two simple but inciteful words you might hold a different opinion.

Remember that the media at its best provides headlines and trivia about cases. At its worst it actually lies. The reasons that judges sentence differently to how you would is not because of their training or the biases you think they have but because they are in possession of the actual facts while you are in possession of a few sentences written by a court reporter who was also not in court very often either.

look I am not stupid...I really am not.. BUT SEXUAL ABUSE to me means SEXUAL ABUSE.. it is not verbal abuse or physical abuse.. it is SEXUAL....and as is the want in the case of paedophiles it is always a CHILD..

that mean if that CHILD lives to be 100 it lives with that horror all those years...

it isnt like an adult who can fight back even run away.. what does a child know what they can do.??????...

they depend on other adults to PROTECT them.. and YES that does mean our COURTS....someone has to give a damn about the CHILDREN whos lives in a lot of cases are ruined for ever more.. thanks to pure EVIL...

you are basically saying,.. there are all levels of SEXUAL ABUSE.....no there isnt....its innocents being stolen because of some pervert who is protected ..

its his right to protection no matter how bad his crime...

he can come out in two years and do it all over again to some other innocent child...and you think I have it all wrong because I didnt sit in court and hear that he may have only had the child touch him... GREAT..

if he only touched or had the child touch him then thats not so bad... fantastic.. Angry

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mariacostel

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Re: There is something very wrong with our JUSTICE sys
Reply #44 - Sep 30^th, 2015 at 11:26am

cods wrote on Sep 30^th, 2015 at 9:23am:

mariacostel wrote on Sep 30^th, 2015 at 9:07am:

The justice system is about how we deal with all offenders and those who are charged incorrectly. It has to deal with all manner of people and all manner of offences and it has to do so in a consistent and fair manner.

Cods, you express your disgust at a 2 years sentence for 'sexually abusing' a kid but those two words are the sum total of everything you know about what happened then. Now if you had been in court and in possession of the actual facts and not two simple but inciteful words you might hold a different opinion.

Remember that the media at its best provides headlines and trivia about cases. At its worst it actually lies. The reasons that judges sentence differently to how you would is not because of their training or the biases you think they have but because they are in possession of the actual facts while you are in possession of a few sentences written by a court reporter who was also not in court very often either.

look I am not stupid...I really am not.. BUT SEXUAL ABUSE to me means SEXUAL ABUSE.. it is not verbal abuse or physical abuse.. it is SEXUAL....and as is the want in the case of paedophiles it is always a CHILD..

that mean if that CHILD lives to be 100 it lives with that horror all those years...

it isnt like an adult who can fight back even run away.. what does a child know what they can do.??????...

they depend on other adults to PROTECT them.. and YES that does mean our COURTS....someone has to give a damn about the CHILDREN whos lives in a lot of cases are ruined for ever more.. thanks to pure EVIL...

you are basically saying,.. there are all levels of SEXUAL ABUSE.....no there isnt....its innocents being stolen because of some pervert who is protected ..

its his right to protection no matter how bad his crime...

he can come out in two years and do it all over again to some other innocent child...and you think I have it all wrong because I didnt sit in court and hear that he may have only had the child touch him... GREAT..

if he only touched or had the child touch him then thats not so bad... fantastic.. Angry

And that is why people like you don't sit on the bench - fortunately. There is obviously a story behind your hysteria, but that doesn't make it any less uninformed. And if you think all sexual abuse is the same then you have some serious congnitive issues.

I am sorry for whatever your story is, but you are still wrong even if understandably so.

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