Australian Politics Forum - Gandalf..got a question for you.

ordinaryguy

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Re: Gandalf..got a question for you.
Reply #90 - Sep 28^th, 2015 at 3:50am

Super Nova wrote on Sep 28^th, 2015 at 3:41am:

ordinaryguy wrote on Sep 28^th, 2015 at 1:22am:

Super Nova wrote on Sep 28^th, 2015 at 1:16am:

I do not believe everything in bible (old or new testament)

However I can choose to live by some of it's rules.

Christianity has it's nutters (or those that take an extreme position on what is written and do not take into account the time it was written and the social order or threats of the time)

In Islam the same applies.

Nutters choose to take quotes to there extreme position or out of context.

Christians had the inquisition years and extreme dogma for many centuries after the fall of the Roman empire (we called them the Dark Ages)

What we have now is an extremist sect using the Quran to further there political objectives. That is to take over the world starting with being recognized as a state as the start. Islam believes in a devil similar to the Christian devil and also warns that the devil will come as a false god. These guys (ISIS in particular) could not be more devil if the devil did plan it.

They do not represent the majority view however there is a lot of fear in Islamic communities so few will speak out publically. Most Muslims I meet are decent people.

Also Arab culture has been brought into the mix as Islamic.

Incorrect, in context in Islam the extremists are supported by the text in context. Not so in the bible in context. So the crusades were touted as being done by Christianity but clearly was not according to the Christian scriptures. Islam on the other hand is supported by the Qua'ran.

Islam is at the opposite end of the scale compared to Christianity it has nothing to do with it. Comparison is ludicrous.

Have you read every word in the Quran. I bet not.

It recognises the old testament and Abraham + moses plus the 10 commandments. References in the Quran to killing infidels is located in a section dealing with the trouble of the times. Taken out of historical context they have. Islam was tolerant off all religions under it's domain until recently. Jews, Christians ...etc were allowed to worship as they saw fit in their societies.

I do not defend what is going on, however I challenge this behaviour we see today is written and therefore mandated in the Quran. This is just not the case.

Incorrect again on your context and blatant lying actually.

Simply explain to me the context of these verses in the Qur'an and we will suck up your cool aid ok.

Here we go:

The Quran contains at least 109 verses that call Muslims to war with nonbelievers for the sake of Islamic rule. Some are quite graphic, with commands to chop off heads and fingers and kill infidels wherever they may be hiding. Muslims who do not join the fight are called 'hypocrites' and warned that Allah will send them to Hell if they do not join the slaughter.

Unlike nearly all of the Old Testament verses of violence, the verses of violence in the Quran are mostly open-ended, meaning that they are not restrained by the historical context of the surrounding text. They are part of the eternal, unchanging word of Allah, and just as relevant or subject to interpretation as anything else in the Quran.

The context of violent passages is more ambiguous than might be expected of a perfect book from a loving God; however this works both ways. Most of today's Muslims exercise a personal choice to interpret their holy book's call to arms according to their own moral preconceptions about justifiable violence. Apologists cater to their preferences with tenuous arguments that gloss over historical fact and generally do not stand up to scrutiny. Still, it is important to note that the problem is not bad people, but bad ideology.

Unfortunately, there are very few verses of tolerance and peace to abrogate or even balance out the many that call for nonbelievers to be fought and subdued until they either accept humiliation, convert to Islam, or are killed. Muhammad's own martial legacy - and that of his companions - along with the remarkable stress on violence found in the Quran have produced a trail of blood and tears across world history.

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ordinaryguy

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Re: Gandalf..got a question for you.
Reply #91 - Sep 28^th, 2015 at 3:50am

The Quran:
Quran (2:191-193) - "And kill them wherever you find them, and turn them out from where they have turned you out. And Al-Fitnah [disbelief or unrest] is worse than killing...
but if they desist, then lo! Allah is forgiving and merciful. And fight them until there is no more Fitnah [disbelief and worshipping of others along with Allah] and worship is for Allah alone. But if they cease, let there be no transgression except against Az-Zalimun (the polytheists, and wrong-doers, etc.)" (Translation is from the Noble Quran) The verse prior to this (190) refers to "fighting for the cause of Allah those who fight you" leading some to believe that the entire passage refers to a defensive war in which Muslims are defending their homes and families. The historical context of this passage is not defensive warfare, however, since Muhammad and his Muslims had just relocated to Medina and were not under attack by their Meccan adversaries. In fact, the verses urge offensive warfare, in that Muslims are to drive Meccans out of their own city (which they later did). Verse 190 thus means to fight those who offer resistance to Allah's rule (ie. Muslim conquest). The use of the word "persecution" by some Muslim translators is disingenuous (the actual Arabic words for persecution - "idtihad" - and oppression - a variation of "z-l-m" - do not appear in the verse). The word used instead, "fitna", can mean disbelief, or the disorder that results from unbelief or temptation. This is certainly what is meant in this context since the violence is explicitly commissioned "until religion is for Allah" - ie. unbelievers desist in their unbelief.

Quran (2:244) - "Then fight in the cause of Allah, and know that Allah Heareth and knoweth all things."

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ordinaryguy

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Re: Gandalf..got a question for you.
Reply #92 - Sep 28^th, 2015 at 3:51am

Quran (2:216) - "Fighting is prescribed for you, and ye dislike it. But it is possible that ye dislike a thing which is good for you, and that ye love a thing which is bad for you. But Allah knoweth, and ye know not." Not only does this verse establish that violence can be virtuous, but it also contradicts the myth that fighting is intended only in self-defense, since the audience was obviously not under attack at the time. From the Hadith, we know that this verse was narrated at a time that Muhammad was actually trying to motivate his people into raiding merchant caravans for loot.

Quran (3:56) - "As to those who reject faith, I will punish them with terrible agony in this world and in the Hereafter, nor will they have anyone to help."

Quran (3:151) - "Soon shall We cast terror into the hearts of the Unbelievers, for that they joined companions with Allah, for which He had sent no authority". This speaks directly of polytheists, yet it also includes Christians, since they believe in the Trinity (ie. what Muhammad incorrectly believed to be 'joining companions to Allah').

Quran (4:74) - "Let those fight in the way of Allah who sell the life of this world for the other. Whoso fighteth in the way of Allah, be he slain or be he victorious, on him We shall bestow a vast reward." The martyrs of Islam are unlike the early Christians, who were led meekly to the slaughter. These Muslims are killed in battle as they attempt to inflict death and destruction for the cause of Allah. This is the theological basis for today's suicide bombers.

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ordinaryguy

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Re: Gandalf..got a question for you.
Reply #93 - Sep 28^th, 2015 at 3:51am

Quran (4:76) - "Those who believe fight in the cause of Allah…"

Quran (4:89) - "They but wish that ye should reject Faith, as they do, and thus be on the same footing (as they): But take not friends from their ranks until they flee in the way of Allah (From what is forbidden). But if they turn renegades, seize them and slay them wherever ye find them; and (in any case) take no friends or helpers from their ranks."

Quran (4:95) - "Not equal are those of the believers who sit (at home), except those who are disabled (by injury or are blind or lame, etc.), and those who strive hard and fight in the Cause of Allah with their wealth and their lives. Allah has preferred in grades those who strive hard and fight with their wealth and their lives above those who sit (at home). Unto each, Allah has promised good (Paradise), but Allah has preferred those who strive hard and fight, above those who sit (at home) by a huge reward " This passage criticizes "peaceful" Muslims who do not join in the violence, letting them know that they are less worthy in Allah's eyes. It also demolishes the modern myth that "Jihad" doesn't mean holy war in the Quran, but rather a spiritual struggle. Not only is this Arabic word (mujahiduna) used in this passage, but it is clearly not referring to anything spiritual, since the physically disabled are given exemption. (The Hadith reveals the context of the passage to be in response to a blind man's protest that he is unable to engage in Jihad, which would not make sense if it meant an internal struggle). According to the verse, Allah will allow the disabled into Paradise, but will provide a larger reward to those who are able to kill others in his cause.

Quran (4:104) - "And be not weak hearted in pursuit of the enemy; if you suffer pain, then surely they (too) suffer pain as you suffer pain..." Is pursuing an injured and retreating enemy really an act of self-defense?

Quran (5:33) - "The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His messenger and strive to make mischief in the land is only this, that they should be murdered or crucified or their hands and their feet should be cut off on opposite sides or they should be imprisoned; this shall be as a disgrace for them in this world, and in the hereafter they shall have a grievous chastisement"

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ordinaryguy

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Re: Gandalf..got a question for you.
Reply #94 - Sep 28^th, 2015 at 3:51am

Quran (8:12) - "I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them" No reasonable person would interpret this to mean a spiritual struggle.

Quran (8:15) - "O ye who believe! When ye meet those who disbelieve in battle, turn not your backs to them. (16)Whoso on that day turneth his back to them, unless maneuvering for battle or intent to join a company, he truly hath incurred wrath from Allah, and his habitation will be hell, a hapless journey's end."

Quran (8:39) - "And fight with them until there is no more fitna (disorder, unbelief) and religion should be only for Allah" Some translations interpret "fitna" as "persecution", but the traditional understanding of this word is not supported by the historical context (See notes for 2:193). The Meccans were simply refusing Muhammad access to their city during Haj. Other Muslims were allowed to travel there - just not as an armed group, since Muhammad had declared war on Mecca prior to his eviction. The Meccans were also acting in defense of their religion, since it was Muhammad's intention to destroy their idols and establish Islam by force (which he later did). Hence the critical part of this verse is to fight until "religion is only for Allah", meaning that the true justification of violence was the unbelief of the opposition. According to the Sira (Ibn Ishaq/Hisham 324) Muhammad further explains that "Allah must have no rivals."

Quran (8:57) - "If thou comest on them in the war, deal with them so as to strike fear in those who are behind them, that haply they may remember."

Quran (8:67) - "It is not for a Prophet that he should have prisoners of war until he had made a great slaughter in the land..."

Quran (8:59-60) - "And let not those who disbelieve suppose that they can outstrip (Allah's Purpose). Lo! they cannot escape. Make ready for them all thou canst of (armed) force and of horses tethered, that thereby ye may dismay the enemy of Allah and your enemy."

Quran (8:65) - "O Prophet, exhort the believers to fight..."

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ordinaryguy

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Re: Gandalf..got a question for you.
Reply #95 - Sep 28^th, 2015 at 3:52am

Quran (9:5) - "So when the sacred months have passed away, then slay the idolaters wherever you find them, and take them captive and besiege them and lie in wait for them in every ambush, then if they repent and keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate, leave their way free to them." According to this verse, the best way of staying safe from Muslim violence is to convert to Islam (prayer (salat) and the poor tax (zakat) are among the religion's Five Pillars). This popular claim that the Quran only inspires violence within the context of self-defense is seriously challenged by this passage as well, since the Muslims to whom it was written were obviously not under attack. Had they been, then there would have been no waiting period (earlier verses make it a duty for Muslims to fight in self-defense, even during the sacred months). The historical context is Mecca after the idolaters were subjugated by Muhammad and posed no threat. Once the Muslims had power, they violently evicted those unbelievers who would not convert.

Quran (9:14) - "Fight against them so that Allah will punish them by your hands and disgrace them and give you victory over them and heal the breasts of a believing people." Humiliating and hurting non-believers not only has the blessing of Allah, but it is ordered as a means of carrying out his punishment and even "healing" the hearts of Muslims.

Quran (9:20) - "Those who believe, and have left their homes and striven with their wealth and their lives in Allah's way are of much greater worth in Allah's sight. These are they who are triumphant." The Arabic word interpreted as "striving" in this verse is the same root as "Jihad". The context is obviously holy war.

Quran (9:29) - "Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued." "People of the Book" refers to Christians and Jews. According to this verse, they are to be violently subjugated, with the sole justification being their religious status. Verse 9:33 tells Muslims that Allah has charted them to make Islam "superior over all religions." This chapter was one of the final "revelations" from Allah and it set in motion the tenacious military expansion, in which Muhammad's companions managed to conquer two-thirds of the Christian world in the next 100 years. Islam is intended to dominate all other people and faiths.

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ordinaryguy Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 625 Gender:	Re: Gandalf..got a question for you. Reply #96 - Sep 28^th, 2015 at 3:52am To be fair that's only 25% of what I have here you can start with those.
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Super Nova

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Re: Gandalf..got a question for you.
Reply #97 - Sep 28^th, 2015 at 3:58am

ordinaryguy wrote on Sep 28^th, 2015 at 3:50am:

The Quran:
Quran (2:191-193) - "And kill them wherever you find them, and turn them out from where they have turned you out. And Al-Fitnah [disbelief or unrest] is worse than killing...
but if they desist, then lo! Allah is forgiving and merciful. And fight them until there is no more Fitnah [disbelief and worshipping of others along with Allah] and worship is for Allah alone. But if they cease, let there be no transgression except against Az-Zalimun (the polytheists, and wrong-doers, etc.)" (Translation is from the Noble Quran) The verse prior to this (190) refers to "fighting for the cause of Allah those who fight you" leading some to believe that the entire passage refers to a defensive war in which Muslims are defending their homes and families. The historical context of this passage is not defensive warfare, however, since Muhammad and his Muslims had just relocated to Medina and were not under attack by their Meccan adversaries. In fact, the verses urge offensive warfare, in that Muslims are to drive Meccans out of their own city (which they later did). Verse 190 thus means to fight those who offer resistance to Allah's rule (ie. Muslim conquest). The use of the word "persecution" by some Muslim translators is disingenuous (the actual Arabic words for persecution - "idtihad" - and oppression - a variation of "z-l-m" - do not appear in the verse). The word used instead, "fitna", can mean disbelief, or the disorder that results from unbelief or temptation. This is certainly what is meant in this context since the violence is explicitly commissioned "until religion is for Allah" - ie. unbelievers desist in their unbelief.

Quran (2:244) - "Then fight in the cause of Allah, and know that Allah Heareth and knoweth all things."

So.

The verse prior to this (190) refers to "fighting for the cause of Allah those who fight you" leading some to believe that the entire passage refers to a defensive war in which Muslims are defending their homes and families.

This is my understanding of what is written.

The historical context of this passage is not defensive warfare, however, since Muhammad and his Muslims had just relocated to Medina and were not under attack by their Meccan adversaries

OK so it is not written just an interpretation of what people did in some assume an historical context.

Does not prove your point. I shall move to the next.

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ordinaryguy

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Re: Gandalf..got a question for you.
Reply #98 - Sep 28^th, 2015 at 4:02am

Super Nova wrote on Sep 28^th, 2015 at 3:58am:

ordinaryguy wrote on Sep 28^th, 2015 at 3:50am:

The Quran:
Quran (2:191-193) - "And kill them wherever you find them, and turn them out from where they have turned you out. And Al-Fitnah [disbelief or unrest] is worse than killing...
but if they desist, then lo! Allah is forgiving and merciful. And fight them until there is no more Fitnah [disbelief and worshipping of others along with Allah] and worship is for Allah alone. But if they cease, let there be no transgression except against Az-Zalimun (the polytheists, and wrong-doers, etc.)" (Translation is from the Noble Quran) The verse prior to this (190) refers to "fighting for the cause of Allah those who fight you" leading some to believe that the entire passage refers to a defensive war in which Muslims are defending their homes and families. The historical context of this passage is not defensive warfare, however, since Muhammad and his Muslims had just relocated to Medina and were not under attack by their Meccan adversaries. In fact, the verses urge offensive warfare, in that Muslims are to drive Meccans out of their own city (which they later did). Verse 190 thus means to fight those who offer resistance to Allah's rule (ie. Muslim conquest). The use of the word "persecution" by some Muslim translators is disingenuous (the actual Arabic words for persecution - "idtihad" - and oppression - a variation of "z-l-m" - do not appear in the verse). The word used instead, "fitna", can mean disbelief, or the disorder that results from unbelief or temptation. This is certainly what is meant in this context since the violence is explicitly commissioned "until religion is for Allah" - ie. unbelievers desist in their unbelief.

Quran (2:244) - "Then fight in the cause of Allah, and know that Allah Heareth and knoweth all things."

So.

The verse prior to this (190) refers to "fighting for the cause of Allah those who fight you" leading some to believe that the entire passage refers to a defensive war in which Muslims are defending their homes and families.

This is my understanding of what is written.

The historical context of this passage is not defensive warfare, however, since Muhammad and his Muslims had just relocated to Medina and were not under attack by their Meccan adversaries

OK so it is not written just an interpretation of what people did in some assume an historical context.

Does not prove your point. I shall move to the next.

Actually the commands are open ended and can be applied to muslims to this very day. However it negates your claim.

Next verse.

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ordinaryguy Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 625 Gender:	Re: Gandalf..got a question for you. Reply #99 - Sep 28^th, 2015 at 4:03am Quran (2:244) - "Then fight in the cause of Allah, and know that Allah Heareth and knoweth all things."
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Lord Herbert

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Re: Gandalf..got a question for you.
Reply #100 - Sep 28^th, 2015 at 4:06am

Johnsmith wrote on Sep 26^th, 2015 at 8:18pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on Sep 26^th, 2015 at 8:08pm:

I am of anglo-Scotish heritage - from a non-religious protestant background.

that is a surprise ...

Don't let The Revelation that gandalf is a Pom spoil your day. There are more of us here ... Lots more ... Be Afraid ... Be VERY afraid ...

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ordinaryguy

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Re: Gandalf..got a question for you.
Reply #101 - Sep 28^th, 2015 at 4:07am

Lord Herbert wrote on Sep 28^th, 2015 at 4:06am:

Johnsmith wrote on Sep 26^th, 2015 at 8:18pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on Sep 26^th, 2015 at 8:08pm:

I am of anglo-Scotish heritage - from a non-religious protestant background.

that is a surprise ...

Don't let The Revelation that gandalf is a Pom spoil your day. There are more of us here ... Lots more ... Be Afraid ... Be VERY afraid ...

Yeah I thought that was a cracker Grin

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Lord Herbert

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Re: Gandalf..got a question for you.
Reply #102 - Sep 28^th, 2015 at 4:13am

Bobby. wrote on Sep 27^th, 2015 at 12:19pm:

Jovial Monk wrote on Sep 27^th, 2015 at 12:09pm:

Islam—a made up religion, taking parts from Judaism and christianity.

Then the crap on the haj, the superstitious nonsense re stoning the devil etc, bah!

You've gotta stone that devil. Grin

Speaking of getting stoned, where's Marla to put in her 2 bob's worth here?

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Lord Herbert

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Re: Gandalf..got a question for you.
Reply #103 - Sep 28^th, 2015 at 4:23am

ordinaryguy wrote on Sep 28^th, 2015 at 4:07am:

Lord Herbert wrote on Sep 28^th, 2015 at 4:06am:

Johnsmith wrote on Sep 26^th, 2015 at 8:18pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on Sep 26^th, 2015 at 8:08pm:

I am of anglo-Scotish heritage - from a non-religious protestant background.

that is a surprise ...

Don't let The Revelation that gandalf is a Pom spoil your day. There are more of us here ... Lots more ... Be Afraid ... Be VERY afraid ...

Yeah I thought that was a cracker Grin

Like so many Italians, John Smith suffers from Terminal Anglophobia from when the Romans arrived in Britain and tasted the local food.

Tripe
Haggis
Jellied eels
Black Pudding
Spotted Dick
Pig's trotters
Ox tongue
Lumpy porridge

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ordinaryguy

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Re: Gandalf..got a question for you.
Reply #104 - Sep 28^th, 2015 at 4:29am

I take it you have your hands full proving your point Super Nova or you have just plain given up. I'll be back to see your explanations of those verses you claim are quoted out of context and am eager to read how they all fit your outlandish claim. If in fact you are actually going to prove your post is correct as you claim.

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