Australian Politics Forum - ••• DOMESTIC VIOLENCE •••

Phemanderac

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Re: ••• DOMESTIC VIOLENCE •••
Reply #135 - Oct 1^st, 2015 at 6:23pm

Aussie wrote on Oct 1^st, 2015 at 6:10pm:

Phemanderac wrote on Oct 1^st, 2015 at 6:03pm:

So, actually, the burden of proof then lies in the alleged perpetrator's loss of self control...

Now I have to wonder if that also applies here in NSW...

Also, are there any Federal laws regarding this?

So, sure, you could argue it, however, you still have a pretty high tide mark there regarding burden of proof, well depending on judge I suppose...

No, the Crown always bears the burden of proof of guilt beyond reasonable doubt. They must satisfy the Jury that, beyond reasonable doubt, the accused (among many other factors) did not act as provoked. Here is some more relevant information about provocation:

Quote:

CRIMINAL CODE 1899 - SECT 268
268 Provocation

(1) The term provocation, used with reference to an offence of which an assault is an element, means and includes, except as hereinafter stated, any wrongful act or insult of such a nature as to be likely, when done to an ordinary person, or in the presence of an ordinary person to another person who is under the person's immediate care, or to whom the person stands in a conjugal, parental, filial, or fraternal, relation, or in the relation of master or servant, to deprive the person of the power of self-control, and to induce the person to assault the person by whom the act or insult is done or offered.

(2) When such an act or insult is done or offered by one person to another, or in the presence of another to a person who is under the immediate care of that other, or to whom the latter stands in any such relation as aforesaid, the former is said to give to the latter provocation for an assault.

(3) A lawful act is not provocation to any person for an assault.

(4) An act which a person does in consequence of incitement given by another person in order to induce the person to do the act, and thereby to furnish an excuse for committing an assault, is not provocation to that other person for an assault.

(5) An arrest which is unlawful is not necessarily provocation for an assault, but it may be evidence of provocation to a person who knows of the illegality.

I have to say that I am gobsmacked at the level of ignorance on such very basic matters, but that is probably my fault expecting people to know some fundamental Law. I'll keep that in mind from now on.

Seems to me that highlighted bit might be important...I think the term "reasonable person" is used elsewhere, I guess they would be similarly considered...

Still, as a defense, it's a bit of a victim blamer isn't it?

Bit different in NSW by the way, I looked.

I am not surprised by your ignorance of said ignorance. You see Aussie, there is one basic truth regarding the law. Criminals both who work for the legal system and those who work against it tend to know a fair bit about the law... The rest just try to do the right thing.

That's a truth that most of the rest of us actually get.

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Phemanderac Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 3507 Gender:	Re: ••• DOMESTIC VIOLENCE ••• Reply #136 - Oct 1^st, 2015 at 6:25pm So, that's a good question, what would a reasonable person do given the same "provocation"? When would they do it? I am thinking that might be another good question?
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mariacostel

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Re: ••• DOMESTIC VIOLENCE •••
Reply #137 - Oct 1^st, 2015 at 6:31pm

... wrote on Oct 1^st, 2015 at 3:28pm:

Kytro wrote on Oct 1^st, 2015 at 3:16pm:

This is exactly the problem I'm getting at, making excuses for violence and threats. This is what I mean when I say domestic violence (like other violence) exists because there are elements of society that think it's acceptable.

I suspect this is going where these discussions always go - an inability to distinguish a slap on the cheek from a headstomping. Nobody thinks that's acceptable. But knowing everyone has their breaking point, and hectoring people until they get to to that point is no more acceptable. There is a very strong deterrent in place for the headstomping (the law) but there is no hectoring deterrent. That's not fair.

Kytro wrote on Oct 1^st, 2015 at 3:16pm:

Making threats

You don't need to make threats. A decent sized bloke needn't say "ima smash you" for the threat of violence to emanate from him, if he is provoked. It's just always there. Cause and effect. If you flick a light switch, it doesn't threaten to turn on, it just turns on. By the same token, if you provoke a dude too far, he might turn your lights out. That's the understanding that needs to be there. If you don't want that threat to be actualised, you don't provoke them. Simple stuff - any 4 year old boy understands this, yet it's too high a bar for grown women. Equality indeed.

You are making way too many excuses for violence. Provocation may be extreme, but hitting your wife is never the answer. But you seem to think there is a case for it sometimes.

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mariacostel

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Re: ••• DOMESTIC VIOLENCE •••
Reply #138 - Oct 1^st, 2015 at 6:33pm

... wrote on Oct 1^st, 2015 at 3:55pm:

Kytro wrote on Oct 1^st, 2015 at 3:50pm:

It is possible to not respond violently to provocation, there are alternatives - you could simply leave the environment and until you are calmer.

Often the simplest course of action is the best.
And every time, the best course of action is the one that works.

What is so bad about giving a slap on the cheek that it must be avoided at all costs? I reckon you might have let the threat of violence become too powerful in your mind. Told you it was powerful.

Are you truly that stupid? You have implied in other posts that you got screwed in a divorce. To be fair, I see why that happened.

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Aussie

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Re: ••• DOMESTIC VIOLENCE •••
Reply #139 - Oct 1^st, 2015 at 6:33pm

Phemanderac wrote on Oct 1^st, 2015 at 6:25pm:

So, that's a good question, what would a reasonable person do given the same "provocation"?

When would they do it? I am thinking that might be another good question?

An ordinary person is not necessarily reasonable. The Law is as cute as it is a pain in the arse.

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mariacostel

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Re: ••• DOMESTIC VIOLENCE •••
Reply #140 - Oct 1^st, 2015 at 6:37pm

Aussie wrote on Oct 1^st, 2015 at 5:26pm:

mariacostel wrote on Oct 1^st, 2015 at 5:20pm:

Aussie wrote on Oct 1^st, 2015 at 11:58am:

Unforgiven wrote on Oct 1^st, 2015 at 11:52am:

double plus good wrote on Oct 1^st, 2015 at 10:31am:

In India your people practice a ritual where the widow is cremated with the husband Unforgiven. It's called Sati or Widow Burning. Now that's abuse.

Doubleplusgood must have been a cremated Indian widow in a former life.

He is also posting crap. The practice was outlawed in the 1800s.

So was rape. How'd that work out in modern day India?

When was rape ever acceptable in India?

THIS YEAR a tribal court sentenced two women to be gang-raped.

That enough for you? Or do you also need to see the enormous rate of woman/child rape that goes on and is not followed up by police?

Rape is considered acceptable by huge numbers of indian and pakistani men. It is why those two groups are so loathed is so many other countries.

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Aussie

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Re: ••• DOMESTIC VIOLENCE •••
Reply #141 - Oct 1^st, 2015 at 6:40pm

Quote:

You are making way too many excuses for violence. Provocation may be extreme, but hitting your wife is never the answer. But you seem to think there is a case for it sometimes.

So do I and so does the Law. A lippy/mouthy provocative spouse (of whatever gender) might well, and lawfully, cop a smack in the ear, or an open palm to the neck (????), a punch and anything short of grievous bodily harm, and, of course, death (in which case, a murder charge is reduced to manslaughter.)

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mariacostel

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Re: ••• DOMESTIC VIOLENCE •••
Reply #142 - Oct 1^st, 2015 at 6:41pm

Aussie wrote on Oct 1^st, 2015 at 5:49pm:

Phemanderac wrote on Oct 1^st, 2015 at 5:39pm:

Aussie wrote on Oct 1^st, 2015 at 5:30pm:

Quote:

Physical violence is NOT an appropriate response ever.

It is. While it is not the only way, it is a legal way to respond to provocation.

Horseshit... Grin

It is illegal to physically assault someone - that would not even constitute self defense.

I would have expected you to know this.

By justifying the use of violence as being "provoked" all you do is justify the perpetrators actions.

Are you arguing that provocation is not not an absolute defence to assault?

YES. You can defend yourself against an actual assault. You cannot however initiate one, even if provoked. And even then, the amount of force used has to be proportionate to the incident. As a self-proclaimed lawyer, you shoudl know this.

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Aussie Gold Member Offline OzPolitic Posts: 38497 Gender:	Re: ••• DOMESTIC VIOLENCE ••• Reply #143 - Oct 1^st, 2015 at 6:41pm Quote: THIS YEAR a tribal court sentenced two women to be gang-raped. Link?
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mariacostel

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Re: ••• DOMESTIC VIOLENCE •••
Reply #144 - Oct 1^st, 2015 at 6:42pm

Aussie wrote on Oct 1^st, 2015 at 6:40pm:

Quote:

You are making way too many excuses for violence. Provocation may be extreme, but hitting your wife is never the answer. But you seem to think there is a case for it sometimes.

So do I and so does the Law. A lippy/mouthy provocative spouse (of whatever gender) might well, and lawfully, cop a smack in the ear, or an open palm to the neck (????), a punch and anything short of grievous bodily harm, and, of course, death (in which case, a murder charge is reduced to manslaughter.)

Well, I guess now we know why you are no longer married and no longer a lawyer. How long was your prison term?

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mariacostel

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Re: ••• DOMESTIC VIOLENCE •••
Reply #145 - Oct 1^st, 2015 at 6:44pm

Aussie wrote on Oct 1^st, 2015 at 6:41pm:

Quote:

THIS YEAR a tribal court sentenced two women to be gang-raped.

Link?

Look it up yourself. If you missed the repeated new-stories of the horrific problem India has with rape than no one can halp you. If they have 2500 BRIDE BURNINGS a year why do you think something as relatively trivial as rape would concern too many people?

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Aussie

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Re: ••• DOMESTIC VIOLENCE •••
Reply #146 - Oct 1^st, 2015 at 6:47pm

Quote:

YES. You can defend yourself against an actual assault. You cannot however initiate one, even if provoked. And even then, the amount of force used has to be proportionate to the incident. As a self-proclaimed lawyer, you shoudl know this.

Goal posts, moving.

Provocation is not limited to an assault. I have posted the basic codified definition. You can initiate an assault, if suitably provoked. And yeas, as I have been at great pains to say, the assault in response may never involve grievous bodily harm (which is another cute legal term) or death.

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Aussie

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Re: ••• DOMESTIC VIOLENCE •••
Reply #147 - Oct 1^st, 2015 at 6:53pm

mariacostel wrote on Oct 1^st, 2015 at 6:44pm:

Aussie wrote on Oct 1^st, 2015 at 6:41pm:

Quote:

THIS YEAR a tribal court sentenced two women to be gang-raped.

Link?

Look it up yourself. If you missed the repeated new-stories of the horrific problem India has with rape than no one can halp you. If they have 2500 BRIDE BURNINGS a year why do you think something as relatively trivial as rape would concern too many people?

Typical. A bare faced false allegation in a post, and when asked for verification, just like melielongtime, a cop out.

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Re: ••• DOMESTIC VIOLENCE •••
Reply #148 - Oct 1^st, 2015 at 7:05pm

mariacostel wrote on Oct 1^st, 2015 at 6:33pm:

... wrote on Oct 1^st, 2015 at 3:55pm:

Kytro wrote on Oct 1^st, 2015 at 3:50pm:

It is possible to not respond violently to provocation, there are alternatives - you could simply leave the environment and until you are calmer.

Often the simplest course of action is the best.
And every time, the best course of action is the one that works.

What is so bad about giving a slap on the cheek that it must be avoided at all costs? I reckon you might have let the threat of violence become too powerful in your mind. Told you it was powerful.

Are you truly that stupid? You have implied in other posts that you got screwed in a divorce. To be fair, I see why that happened.

I implied no such thing.

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In the fullness of time...

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Johnsmith

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Re: ••• DOMESTIC VIOLENCE •••
Reply #149 - Oct 1^st, 2015 at 7:14pm

... wrote on Oct 1^st, 2015 at 7:05pm:

mariacostel wrote on Oct 1^st, 2015 at 6:33pm:

... wrote on Oct 1^st, 2015 at 3:55pm:

Kytro wrote on Oct 1^st, 2015 at 3:50pm:

It is possible to not respond violently to provocation, there are alternatives - you could simply leave the environment and until you are calmer.

Often the simplest course of action is the best.
And every time, the best course of action is the one that works.

What is so bad about giving a slap on the cheek that it must be avoided at all costs? I reckon you might have let the threat of violence become too powerful in your mind. Told you it was powerful.

Are you truly that stupid? You have implied in other posts that you got screwed in a divorce. To be fair, I see why that happened.

I implied no such thing.

Maria reads in pigeon English, you say one thing, she reads it as something else.

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