Australian Politics Forum - ••• DOMESTIC VIOLENCE •••

Kytro Gold Member Offline Blasphemy: a victimless crime Posts: 3409 Adelaide Gender:	Re: ••• DOMESTIC VIOLENCE ••• Reply #165 - Oct 2^nd, 2015 at 9:11am mariacostel wrote on Oct 1^st, 2015 at 6:37pm: THIS YEAR a tribal court sentenced two women to be gang-raped. Just a point on this, the tribal courts in India don't have any legal power but it still showcases the problems.
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Grappler Truth Teller Feller

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Re: ••• DOMESTIC VIOLENCE •••
Reply #166 - Oct 2^nd, 2015 at 9:12am

Ex Dame Pansi wrote on Oct 2^nd, 2015 at 6:58am:

Domestic violence in the Sydney area is a phenomenon mostly confined to the Pacific Islanders, the Aborigines, and Muslim Arabs.

That's a myth Herbie, Domestic violence has no race barriers.

Yeah - but he does have some points in the rest of the blurb....

I have, for instance, raised the issue of retributional violence before (as retaliatory violence), and we all know that in some cultures that is pretty normal.

And people, before we get too carried away with this - let us all remember that 'domestic violence' is whatever the complainant feels - and does not, in the majority of cases, involve real violence.

What is needed before this entire issue goes any further is a clear division between domestic difference, domestic dispute, and domestic violence - lest all are thrown into the same basket and reap not only direct violence via the intervention of the State without proper warrant, but also retributive or retaliatory violence.

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« Last Edit: Oct 2^nd, 2015 at 9:26am by Grappler Truth Teller Feller »

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Kytro

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Re: ••• DOMESTIC VIOLENCE •••
Reply #167 - Oct 2^nd, 2015 at 9:20am

Grappler Truth Teller Feller wrote on Oct 1^st, 2015 at 7:51pm:

'domestic violence' is a created component of the artificial drive by government to cause a division between men and women and thus destroy the fundamental building block of our kind of society - the family.

Domestic violence is created when family members are violent towards each other. How is the government making families attack each other?

Grappler Truth Teller Feller wrote on Oct 1^st, 2015 at 7:51pm:

It is an escalating issue for the simple reason that it is media driven, and has been based, by the same governments for their own ends, on a faulty premise in several ways.

One such way is the hijacking of the word 'violence' and its killing and then re-birth as an entirely different thing from what it was.

Words change over time, one might as well complain that 'gay' no longer primarily means happy.

Grappler Truth Teller Feller wrote on Oct 1^st, 2015 at 7:51pm:

Another is the perpetuation of the myth that 'domestic violence' ONLY includes men v women.

Which of course it isn't It includes all violence between family members. The insistence of men v women shows how archaic some attitudes still are.

Grappler Truth Teller Feller wrote on Oct 1^st, 2015 at 7:51pm:

These two factors have significantly contributed to the input into an equation of 'violence' as described in (1) above - by the simple expedients of simultaneously using the instruments of the State to attack men, thus generating a response, and by encouraging women to cry 'violence' at any time for any reason, thus creating the opportunity for the State to intervene violently, and thus escalating what is, in the very vast majority of situations, NOT violence at all into a generalised melee` of violence at whim, retaliatory violence, and State institutionalised violence.

There will always be some people who try to use the law to gain advantage in this way, but it is by far a minority of the cases. While it's important to get to truth, that shouldn't be used as a method to dismiss the vast majority of situations.

Grappler Truth Teller Feller wrote on Oct 1^st, 2015 at 7:51pm:

In this never-ending descent into Hell there is no answer as long as government/State itself continues to promote and encourage violence between men and women.

It doesn't help, no. It's also somewhat unavoidable, but it should be minimised.

Grappler Truth Teller Feller wrote on Oct 1^st, 2015 at 7:51pm:

As for the killings that are going on - the State views these as 'acceptable casualties' in what it deems to be a 'social revolution' - which is, rather, a 'bloody coup' by that State.

Are you suggesting the state staged these killings?

Grappler Truth Teller Feller wrote on Oct 1^st, 2015 at 7:51pm:

Attacking and insulting mostly innocent men is a surefire way of guaranteeing retaliation in one way or another, as does attacking their home, hearth and family - which is precisely what the State is doing with this current 'domestic violence' regime. Men are hard-wired that way - so the direct impact of an unwarranted intervention using violence by the State in ALL ordinary men - is one of first rejection, and then retaliation.

Insults are not a valid reason to act with violence. We rise above of basic biological drives on a daily basis.

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cods

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Re: ••• DOMESTIC VIOLENCE •••
Reply #168 - Oct 2^nd, 2015 at 9:21am

Grappler Truth Teller Feller wrote on Oct 1^st, 2015 at 10:50pm:

.. oh - and you cannot include children with women - lest you run the very serious hazard of bringing in the facts that children are seven time more likely to suffer abuse, neglect and even murder at the hands of their mother, with or without the assistance of the 'new lion' in the pride, who kills offspring of another abandoned 'lion'.

More girls are molested by their 'step-father' than by their birth father, as one example.

I have been trying to grapple with your comments and to be honest I havent a clue what you are trying to say..

my son in law a copper said he dreaded being called out to a DOMESTIC VIOLENCE complaints...he said NO TWO ARE ALIKE...in which case there can be no ONE WAY TO DEALING WITH IT..they do not know until they get there what action they will take....

we have to protect the vulnerable..we have to make the penalty tougher...any man that lays a hand on a female even more so in front of his children is scum.. he is a coward.. we need a cowards act...something where not only do they get a sentence they also get shamed..

these guys because of the laws are protected their names and faces are kept from the public...we do not know the half of what is going on...... release the figures?? give us the stats SHOCK US...we need to know stop covering it up...

there is no excuse... none at all..

Quote:

IF 'domestic violence' was restricted to GENUINE violence and was not exploited by the same State as an opportunity to wrest from a law-abiding populace its legally owned firearms - and was not then pounced upon by the lunatic feminist fringe as a brilliant opportunity to push the 'rights' of women over the rights of men in their own homes - we would not now be facing this current and accelerating disaster.

I have not a clue what you are claiming grap... show me a link where a man has been persecuted by a feminist fringe mob and accused of domestic violence where none happened....

I would have to read that to believe it..

where is all this information kept that you are going on about... whats firearms got to do with anything.. Roll Eyes

..

for the most part we are talking about FISTS and no you dont need a licence to own them.. Angry

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Gnads

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Re: ••• DOMESTIC VIOLENCE •••
Reply #169 - Oct 2^nd, 2015 at 9:26am

Aussie wrote on Oct 1^st, 2015 at 4:43pm:

Gnads wrote on Oct 1^st, 2015 at 4:42pm:

Aussie wrote on Oct 1^st, 2015 at 4:35pm:

..and both were made illegal in the 1800s.

So why is there still so much Bride Burning going on?

Bride burning is not widow burning.

I used the expression 'both' because Suttee and Sati are different words meaning the same ~ widow on dead husband's pyre.

Bit late but ..... durrrrh.

I'm well aware Sati & Suttee are the same thing.

I used the word Suttee ... because that's the first word I had heard associated with it years ago.

So why is Bride burning still occurring? ... it's as bad if not worse than Widow Burning.

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Kytro

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Re: ••• DOMESTIC VIOLENCE •••
Reply #170 - Oct 2^nd, 2015 at 9:30am

Annie Anthrax wrote on Oct 1^st, 2015 at 8:31pm:

How many men have died as a result of domestic violence this year? How many men live in terror of being killed at the hands of their female partners?

I'm not sure, but it's mostly besides the point.

Annie Anthrax wrote on Oct 1^st, 2015 at 8:31pm:

There is no moral excuse for violence in the family home. Victims of lethal domestic violence are overwhelmingly women and children. Making excuses to justify poor behaviour is pathetic in any situation, but blindingly so in this case.

Certainly this is true, but men still make a significant proportion of victims (and, of course perpetrators). Violence isn't acceptable regardless of who is attacked and who does the attacking.

Annie Anthrax wrote on Oct 1^st, 2015 at 8:31pm:

I am blessed to be in an emotionally and physically safe relationship and I am incredinly grateful for that.

As am I. If it changed I'd leave (or more likely take them to hospital for an MRI).

Annie Anthrax wrote on Oct 1^st, 2015 at 8:31pm:

When I was younger, I was in a violent relationship. I went to hospital many times with head injuries from being kicked in the head with steel capped boots. I have a scar on by back from being stabbed. I spent 3 days locked in a cupboard.

That's an experience that no-one should have to go through.

Annie Anthrax wrote on Oct 1^st, 2015 at 8:31pm:

None of the men here offering excuses for violence against women have a clue what theyre talking about. Nagging? LOL. I spent a year almost too afraid to breathe. Desktop warriors who havent a fresh idea between them.

I find it frustrating that people still seem to think violence is a solution, or a good idea in so many cases. I mean you're not going to change somebody's personalty with a slap, and why would you want to remain in a relationship where you feel compelled to do this. having children and then exposing them to such a toxic environment is far worse than leaving.

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cods

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Re: ••• DOMESTIC VIOLENCE •••
Reply #171 - Oct 2^nd, 2015 at 9:34am

Kytro wrote on Oct 2^nd, 2015 at 9:11am:

mariacostel wrote on Oct 1^st, 2015 at 6:37pm:

THIS YEAR a tribal court sentenced two women to be gang-raped.

Just a point on this, the tribal courts in India don't have any legal power but it still showcases the problems.

I am not sure why India has crept into this... but I did hear where things are changing for the better over there... which has got to be a good thing women are starting to stand up for themselves....its a start slow but sure..

but in this country we seem to be going the other way...

not only that! we use every excuse under the sun...even mental illness... I dont buy that...I really dont...

people live together they know if someone is behaving in a way that cannot help....I was brought up in a home of silence... my dad would suddenly stop speaking.. not just to my mum but to everyone...if a family member came to visit he would keep reading his paper and ignore them..he would grunt at me and my brother..this would last for months...he was dark and brooding..and scary to a child...we would creep around .. we never knew why or what we had done..... then out of the blue he would be normal...this would last for maybe 2 months...its hard to remember as we spent more time in solitude... it was looking back a traumatic childhood lucky for us we had a good mum who made up for him..

it wasnt until I was about 17 that I found a friend who had a father the same... I thought I was the only one...I remember hating school holidays...as we saw more of him...

it was torture...I wouldnt wish it on anyone...

so adding violence to the an ger....no way..

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Grappler Truth Teller Feller

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Re: ••• DOMESTIC VIOLENCE •••
Reply #172 - Oct 2^nd, 2015 at 9:38am

Kytro wrote on Oct 2^nd, 2015 at 9:20am:

[quote author=The_Grappler link=1443653228/150#150 date=1443693098]'domestic violence' is a created component of the artificial drive by government to cause a division between men and women and thus destroy the fundamental building block of our kind of society - the family.

Domestic violence is created when family members are violent towards each other. How is the government making families attack each other?

You've missed the last 30-40 years, haven't you? Governments have installed legislation that permits one party to attack the other on the basis of a feeling using the instruments of the State. That's two strikes before you even start.

Grappler Truth Teller Feller wrote on Oct 1^st, 2015 at 7:51pm:

It is an escalating issue for the simple reason that it is media driven, and has been based, by the same governments for their own ends, on a faulty premise in several ways.

One such way is the hijacking of the word 'violence' and its killing and then re-birth as an entirely different thing from what it was.

Words change over time, one might as well complain that 'gay' no longer primarily means happy.

No real relevance there - the real issue is that 'violence' as per the social science re-naming has come to mean anything one side feels, but does not apply to the other side - with both sides being arbitrarily allocated roles in this farce.

Grappler Truth Teller Feller wrote on Oct 1^st, 2015 at 7:51pm:

Another is the perpetuation of the myth that 'domestic violence' ONLY includes men v women.

Which of course it isn't It includes all violence between family members. The insistence of men v women shows how archaic some attitudes still are.

Spot on.

Grappler Truth Teller Feller wrote on Oct 1^st, 2015 at 7:51pm:

These two factors have significantly contributed to the input into an equation of 'violence' as described in (1) above - by the simple expedients of simultaneously using the instruments of the State to attack men, thus generating a response, and by encouraging women to cry 'violence' at any time for any reason, thus creating the opportunity for the State to intervene violently, and thus escalating what is, in the very vast majority of situations, NOT violence at all into a generalised melee` of violence at whim, retaliatory violence, and State institutionalised violence.

There will always be some people who try to use the law to gain advantage in this way, but it is by far a minority of the cases. While it's important to get to truth, that shouldn't be used as a method to dismiss the vast majority of situations.

The truth is simple - while ever the 'definition' of 'domestic violence' remains 'whatever the complainant feels' - and that is deemed sufficient for the violent intervention of the State - there can never be any diminution in Violence overall - only an escalation with each step.

Grappler Truth Teller Feller wrote on Oct 1^st, 2015 at 7:51pm:

In this never-ending descent into Hell there is no answer as long as government/State itself continues to promote and encourage violence between men and women.

It doesn't help, no. It's also somewhat unavoidable, but it should be minimised.

A better approach, in my view, would be to remove the insulting and stigmatising term 'violence' from applications for AVOs etc. That is a nonsense when over 95% of call-outs to NSW police over DV in 2011-12 resulted in no charges, and most accusations of 'violence' as put forward for the rubber stamp AVO etc are no such thing, but are themselves inflammatory. Violence needs to be carefully defined - not just used as a catch-all for every situation, and as a useful re-defined tool to enable government to act where it has no real right. That is why I advocate a first step as being a careful re-phrasing of this 'legislation' so as to properly define actions.

Grappler Truth Teller Feller wrote on Oct 1^st, 2015 at 7:51pm:

As for the killings that are going on - the State views these as 'acceptable casualties' in what it deems to be a 'social revolution' - which is, rather, a 'bloody coup' by that State.

Are you suggesting the state staged these killings?

I am saying that in the Hitlerite and Stalinist and Pol Pot-ist style of thinking - that of 'RealPolitik' - governments with an agenda genuinely view people injured and harmed terribly as 'acceptable casualties'. You see that every day with government policies - raising the pension age injures many = acceptable casualties in the greater good - FTAs without genuine mutual trade injure many = acceptable casualties in the greater good.

Grappler Truth Teller Feller wrote on Oct 1^st, 2015 at 7:51pm:

Attacking and insulting mostly innocent men is a surefire way of guaranteeing retaliation in one way or another, as does attacking their home, hearth and family - which is precisely what the State is doing with this current 'domestic violence' regime. Men are hard-wired that way - so the direct impact of an unwarranted intervention using violence by the State in ALL ordinary men - is one of first rejection, and then retaliation.

Insults are not a valid reason to act with violence. We rise above of basic biological drives on a daily basis.

[/q

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Grappler Truth Teller Feller Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 83398 Proud pre-1850's NO Voter Gender:	Re: ••• DOMESTIC VIOLENCE ••• Reply #173 - Oct 2^nd, 2015 at 9:38am Foreign countries have no place in this discussion - we live in Australia.
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Aussie

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Re: ••• DOMESTIC VIOLENCE •••
Reply #174 - Oct 2^nd, 2015 at 9:39am

Kytro wrote on Oct 2^nd, 2015 at 9:07am:

Aussie wrote on Oct 1^st, 2015 at 6:40pm:

Quote:

You are making way too many excuses for violence. Provocation may be extreme, but hitting your wife is never the answer. But you seem to think there is a case for it sometimes.

So do I and so does the Law. A lippy/mouthy provocative spouse (of whatever gender) might well, and lawfully, cop a smack in the ear, or an open palm to the neck (????), a punch and anything short of grievous bodily harm, and, of course, death (in which case, a murder charge is reduced to manslaughter.)

I doubt that many of those cases are won with a provocation defence. You don't get to legally smack someone over the ear simply because they made you personally angry. If you have violent tendencies, you don't get leeway.

Notably it's only Queensland that allow provocation as a defence to common assault.

Frankly the defence should be removed altogether as a defence of the crime, and should be part of mitigating circumstances for sentencing - which should include acquiring the skills of self-restraint.

It is a defence in South Australia as well as every ofter State in Australia.

Quote:

You don't get to legally smack someone over the ear simply because they made you personally angry.

Not angry ~ provoked. I have already provided the codified definition.

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Kytro

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Re: ••• DOMESTIC VIOLENCE •••
Reply #175 - Oct 2^nd, 2015 at 9:40am

cods wrote on Oct 2^nd, 2015 at 9:34am:

not only that! we use every excuse under the sun...even mental illness... I dont buy that...I really dont...

Don't dismiss mental illness. It's a real thing that has real impacts on people's ability to make choices and can alter the ability to understand consequences and even right and wrong. That's not to say they should just allowed to be violent without consequence, of course not - but it's health issue.

Not everyone has the same sort of illness.

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mariacostel

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Re: ••• DOMESTIC VIOLENCE •••
Reply #176 - Oct 2^nd, 2015 at 9:41am

Kytro wrote on Oct 2^nd, 2015 at 9:11am:

mariacostel wrote on Oct 1^st, 2015 at 6:37pm:

THIS YEAR a tribal court sentenced two women to be gang-raped.

Just a point on this, the tribal courts in India don't have any legal power but it still showcases the problems.

That is correct, but the fact is that these tribal courts have power just the same and the fact that a court could actually sentence a woman to gang-rape indicates that India has a truly massive problem with rape to the extent that large segments of the population consider it justifiable.

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mariacostel

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Re: ••• DOMESTIC VIOLENCE •••
Reply #177 - Oct 2^nd, 2015 at 9:42am

Grappler Truth Teller Feller wrote on Oct 2^nd, 2015 at 9:38am:

[quote author=Kytro link=1443653228/167#167 date=1443741629][quote author=The_Grappler link=1443653228/150#150 date=1443693098]'domestic violence' is a created component of the artificial drive by government to cause a division between men and women and thus destroy the fundamental building block of our kind of society - the family.