Australian Politics Forum - So, What is personal abuse really...

Phemanderac

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So, What is personal abuse really...
Oct 2^nd, 2015 at 3:46pm

As the cycle goes, it would seem that abuse is floating about as a topic of interest (angst perhaps might be a better word...).

We even have a thread dedicated to posting up examples of abuse, which, given a lot of what is posted prompted this thread.

What exactly do you see as personal abuse?

Is it someone disagreeing with your perspective?

Is it someone articulating that a point made was stupid, ill conceived, uninformed or somehow in error?

Is it someone calling you names?

Is it saying mean things about someone who is in no position to defend themselves? (that's a really tricky one, because, if one diligently follows the forum rules, they have no right to defend themselves from abuse...)?

Is it abuse to attack what is written?

Is it abuse to attack the poster?

Is it abuse to refer to people's life experience in negative terms?

Is it abuse to refer to people's capacity (to think, comprehend, understand, articulate, live, survive, use logic...)

Is it abuse to refer to (say for example) flawed logic used to support an argument?

Is a written idea or point that you find offensive abuse?

Is abuse deserved?

Whilst I most certainly have my own ideas about what constitutes abuse, I am interested in what others genuinely think this means...

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Phemanderac Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 3507 Gender:	Re: So, What is personal abuse really... Reply #1 - Oct 2^nd, 2015 at 3:52pm Probably a crap poll really.... Would prefer comments to be honest.
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mariacostel

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Re: So, What is personal abuse really...
Reply #2 - Oct 2^nd, 2015 at 4:04pm

Phemanderac wrote on Oct 2^nd, 2015 at 3:52pm:

Probably a crap poll really....

Would prefer comments to be honest.

To vehemently disagree with another's position is not abuse. It is abuse to target the person, but even then when someone says something manifestly idiotic, to say that it is so, is not abuse.

This is hardly an elevated platform for discussion so some of the rules need a bit more leeway. If for example you have someone who repeatedly says things that most of us know to be false and/or idiotic and is unable to be reasoned with (eg Unforgiven) at what point does calling them an idiot cease to be abusive and merely a statement of unequivocal fact?

In an environment such as this one it can be very challenging when presented with opponent who reject any and all evidence put to them from indisputable sources.

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Kytro

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Re: So, What is personal abuse really...
Reply #3 - Oct 2^nd, 2015 at 4:09pm

mariacostel wrote on Oct 2^nd, 2015 at 4:04pm:

This is hardly an elevated platform for discussion so some of the rules need a bit more leeway. If for example you have someone who repeatedly says things that most of us know to be false and/or idiotic and is unable to be reasoned with (eg Unforgiven) at what point does calling them an idiot cease to be abusive and merely a statement of unequivocal fact?

I can't see a good reason to do this. Frustrating as it can be, nothing of value can be gained by attacking a poster by calling then names.

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Phemanderac

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Re: So, What is personal abuse really...
Reply #4 - Oct 2^nd, 2015 at 4:26pm

mariacostel wrote on Oct 2^nd, 2015 at 4:04pm:

This is hardly an elevated platform for discussion so some of the rules need a bit more leeway.

That seems to say that we can set our personal standards based on, the "platform" we are using and, seemingly at least, the actions of others...

Interesting way to set personal standards...

Because...
mariacostel wrote on Oct 2^nd, 2015 at 4:04pm:

It is abuse to target the person, but even then when someone says something manifestly idiotic, to say that it is so, is not abuse.

mariacostel wrote on Oct 2^nd, 2015 at 4:04pm:

at what point does calling them an idiot cease to be abusive

Depending on one's "personal standards" I suppose, but it would seemingly and reasonably be at no point

mariacostel wrote on Oct 2^nd, 2015 at 4:04pm:

In an environment such as this one it can be very challenging when presented with opponent who reject any and all evidence put to them from indisputable sources.

Yep, I know what you're saying there, however, it seems that is something that we are ALL capable of doing. Demonstrably so on this platform.

I don't disagree with you that when people disagree with us it is frustrating.

I also agree that, at times that disagreement, even at our most tolerant and patient seems illogical and unreasonable in the face of facts... I am not convinced that there is such a thing as irrefutable evidence in forumite world (oh, I realise there is in the rest of the real world though...), perhaps it is slightly flawed thinking to consider evidence as irrefutable on a forum. Some people come here to oppose it would seem.

That opposition though, albeit at times unreasonable and ill conceived is not a given to either be abuse or justification for being abusive, is it?

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Phemanderac

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Re: So, What is personal abuse really...
Reply #5 - Oct 2^nd, 2015 at 4:28pm

mariacostel wrote on Oct 2^nd, 2015 at 4:04pm:

To vehemently disagree with another's position is not abuse. It is abuse to target the person, but even then when someone says something manifestly idiotic, to say that it is so, is not abuse.

I think another thing about this that is relevant here at least, it seems that some, based on being offended at someone's robust dissection of a not too well thought out point, label that as abuse, which, it clearly isn't...

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mariacostel

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Re: So, What is personal abuse really...
Reply #6 - Oct 2^nd, 2015 at 4:35pm

Kytro wrote on Oct 2^nd, 2015 at 4:09pm:

mariacostel wrote on Oct 2^nd, 2015 at 4:04pm:

This is hardly an elevated platform for discussion so some of the rules need a bit more leeway. If for example you have someone who repeatedly says things that most of us know to be false and/or idiotic and is unable to be reasoned with (eg Unforgiven) at what point does calling them an idiot cease to be abusive and merely a statement of unequivocal fact?

I can't see a good reason to do this. Frustrating as it can be, nothing of value can be gained by attacking a poster by calling then names.

As a rule I would agree. There are however the rare poster(s) where calling them an idiot or stupid would be nothing more than a statement of medical fact. Tactless for sure. Rude, definitely. But not incorrect!

This however is a day when I was accused by the obviously drunk Cods of being a paedo-supporter which according to one PM message is her standard response on the topic of children unless you subscribe to her ignorant and bile-fuelled idiocy. So perhaps not a good day for me to respond to this question.

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mariacostel

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Re: So, What is personal abuse really...
Reply #7 - Oct 2^nd, 2015 at 4:45pm

Phemanderac wrote on Oct 2^nd, 2015 at 4:26pm:

mariacostel wrote on Oct 2^nd, 2015 at 4:04pm:

This is hardly an elevated platform for discussion so some of the rules need a bit more leeway.

That seems to say that we can set our personal standards based on, the "platform" we are using and, seemingly at least, the actions of others...

Interesting way to set personal standards...

Because...
mariacostel wrote on Oct 2^nd, 2015 at 4:04pm:

It is abuse to target the person, but even then when someone says something manifestly idiotic, to say that it is so, is not abuse.

mariacostel wrote on Oct 2^nd, 2015 at 4:04pm:

at what point does calling them an idiot cease to be abusive

Depending on one's "personal standards" I suppose, but it would seemingly and reasonably be at no point

mariacostel wrote on Oct 2^nd, 2015 at 4:04pm:

In an environment such as this one it can be very challenging when presented with opponent who reject any and all evidence put to them from indisputable sources.

Yep, I know what you're saying there, however, it seems that is something that we are ALL capable of doing. Demonstrably so on this platform.

I don't disagree with you that when people disagree with us it is frustrating.

I also agree that, at times that disagreement, even at our most tolerant and patient seems illogical and unreasonable in the face of facts... I am not convinced that there is such a thing as irrefutable evidence in forumite world (oh, I realise there is in the rest of the real world though...), perhaps it is slightly flawed thinking to consider evidence as irrefutable on a forum. Some people come here to oppose it would seem.

That opposition though, albeit at times unreasonable and ill conceived is not a given to either be abuse or justification for being abusive, is it?

'Irrefutable evidence' is a difficult concept because in truth, NOTHING can ever be proven beyond doubt. However, when I present a substantial quote from an eminent scientist making a very clear and unambiguous statement I take umbrage who say that the quote never happened or that he actually meant something different entirely.

There comes a point in time when the evidence for a fact is so overwhelming that refutation requires an equally mountainous supply of evidence. For example, I was in a thread about the warming pause. Now the causes and meaning of the pause are certainly highly contentious. The fact of its existence is largely not refuted by both sides of the debate. NOAA's best efforts to rejig previous temperature data has largely been met with scepticism from alarmists and sceptics alike who quite simply see raw data that rejects that conclusion. I provided literally dozens of links and quotes from very highly regarded sources, but they were rejected.

So yes, there are people who come in here to support an ideology which is frankly, probably everybody. But when ideology confronts fact and ideology still wins then there is a very real problem.

Justification for abuse? Probably not. But justified or not, a stupid person remains a stupid person regardless of what I or anyone else says.

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mariacostel

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Re: So, What is personal abuse really...
Reply #8 - Oct 2^nd, 2015 at 4:46pm

Phemanderac wrote on Oct 2^nd, 2015 at 4:28pm:

mariacostel wrote on Oct 2^nd, 2015 at 4:04pm:

To vehemently disagree with another's position is not abuse. It is abuse to target the person, but even then when someone says something manifestly idiotic, to say that it is so, is not abuse.

I think another thing about this that is relevant here at least, it seems that some, based on being offended at someone's robust dissection of a not too well thought out point, label that as abuse, which, it clearly isn't...

There are certainly some thin skins who take enormous offense at being challenged, never mind refuted. Take any Climate Change thread for example.

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Phemanderac Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 3507 Gender:	Re: So, What is personal abuse really... Reply #9 - Oct 2^nd, 2015 at 4:55pm mariacostel wrote on Oct 2^nd, 2015 at 4:46pm: There are certainly some thin skins who take enormous offense at being challenged, never mind refuted. Take any Climate Change thread for example I guess you realise it is a given that BOTH sides of that debate could and would probably say the same thing...
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Phemanderac Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 3507 Gender:	Re: So, What is personal abuse really... Reply #10 - Oct 2^nd, 2015 at 4:57pm Thanks for responding though, for my part, I will refrain from further comment, because I am interested to see; a) What (if anything) others might think. b) If others are interested in stating their opinion, or, if refuting what you, Kytro or I have said so far.
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Johnsmith

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Re: So, What is personal abuse really...
Reply #11 - Oct 2^nd, 2015 at 4:58pm

mariacostel wrote on Oct 2^nd, 2015 at 4:04pm:

If for example you have someone who repeatedly says things that most of us know to be false and/or idiotic and is unable to be reasoned with (eg Maria)

fixed it for you

people need to lighten up (especially Aussie) ... it's only abuse if you let it be. Seriously, Who gives a fig what some anonymous person on the internet says about you?

If your self esteem is that low that what some random person, whom you've never met nor are likely to ever meet, opinion is that important then you have more pressing issues to deal with than abuse.

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mariacostel

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Re: So, What is personal abuse really...
Reply #12 - Oct 2^nd, 2015 at 5:04pm

Phemanderac wrote on Oct 2^nd, 2015 at 4:55pm:

mariacostel wrote on Oct 2^nd, 2015 at 4:46pm:

There are certainly some thin skins who take enormous offense at being challenged, never mind refuted. Take any Climate Change thread for example

I guess you realise it is a given that BOTH sides of that debate could and would probably say the same thing...

To some degree that is true, but I can (and have been) in forums where you literally get banned for expressing any opinion not in 100% agreement with the IPCC version of Climate Change. Serious. You are expressly forbidden to quote from 'denier sites' while they happily quote from Sceptical Science - the most misnamed site on the planet!

I cant tell you of any sceptic sites that do that. I dont know of any authors calling for warming alarmists to be jailed or killed but I can find a fair few on the other side.

Yes, it IS BOTH. But not in equal quantity.

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mariacostel

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Re: So, What is personal abuse really...
Reply #13 - Oct 2^nd, 2015 at 5:05pm

Johnsmith wrote on Oct 2^nd, 2015 at 4:58pm:

mariacostel wrote on Oct 2^nd, 2015 at 4:04pm:

If for example you have someone who repeatedly says things that most of us know to be false and/or idiotic and is unable to be reasoned with (eg Maria)

fixed it for you

people need to lighten up (especially Aussie) ... it's only abuse if you let it be. Seriously, Who gives a fig what some anonymous person on the internet says about you?

If your self esteem is that low that what some random person, whom you've never met nor are likely to ever meet, opinion is that important then you have more pressing issues to deal with than abuse.

What, are you the last neanderthal who has never heard of cyber-bullying?

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Johnsmith

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Re: So, What is personal abuse really...
Reply #14 - Oct 2^nd, 2015 at 5:13pm

mariacostel wrote on Oct 2^nd, 2015 at 5:05pm:

Johnsmith wrote on Oct 2^nd, 2015 at 4:58pm:

mariacostel wrote on Oct 2^nd, 2015 at 4:04pm:

If for example you have someone who repeatedly says things that most of us know to be false and/or idiotic and is unable to be reasoned with (eg Maria)

fixed it for you

people need to lighten up (especially Aussie) ... it's only abuse if you let it be. Seriously, Who gives a fig what some anonymous person on the internet says about you?

If your self esteem is that low that what some random person, whom you've never met nor are likely to ever meet, opinion is that important then you have more pressing issues to deal with than abuse.

What, are you the last neanderthal who has never heard of cyber-bullying?

If I were a neanderthal I would have clubbed you over the head ages ago ...

you think I should cry because you call me a neanderthal?

what part of my comment did you disagree with?

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When politicians offer you something for nothing, or something that sounds too good to be true, it's always worth taking a careful second look.
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Poll
Question: Is this abuse?
Shredding an argument with facts and thinking 0 (0.0%) Attacking the words in a post 0 (0.0%) Attacking the poster 8 (33.3%) Speculation about someone's private life etc 7 (29.2%) Saying the person is stupid 6 (25.0%) Saying the point is stupid and why.... 0 (0.0%) statements about individuals belief's etc 3 (12.5%) Total votes: 24 « Created by: Phemanderac on: Oct 2^nd, 2015 at 3:52pm »