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  Australian Politics Forum › General Discussion › General Board › So, What is personal abuse really...
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Poll Poll
Question: Is this abuse?

Shredding an argument with facts and thinking    
  0 (0.0%)
Attacking the words in a post    
  0 (0.0%)
Attacking the poster    
  8 (33.3%)
Speculation about someone's private life etc    
  7 (29.2%)
Saying the person is stupid    
  6 (25.0%)
Saying the point is stupid and why....    
  0 (0.0%)
statements about individuals belief's etc    
  3 (12.5%)




Total votes: 24
« Created by: Phemanderac on: Oct 2nd, 2015 at 3:52pm »

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So, What is personal abuse really... (Read 2012 times)
Phemanderac
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Re: So, What is personal abuse really...
Reply #15 - Oct 2nd, 2015 at 5:31pm  
Johnsmith wrote on Oct 2nd, 2015 at 4:58pm:
Seriously, Who gives a fig


Ironically, the problems start when someone does give a fig and, that someone often does for a range of reasons.

Sure, you can disagree with their reasons, however, if you allow your dismissal of verbal abuse guide your choices to abuse - then you are inflicting your view onto others... Being an abuser or, as was pointed out a cyber bully.

Now, logically, if cyber bullying wasn't a real world issue in our very modern world - there would not be a term for it, or research into managing it or, for that matter, ideas and debate about legislation changes (some changes have been implemented in some jurisdictions) making cyber bullying a real world crime.

I think perhaps you might not be keeping up with modern cultural norms here. Now days, the interactions we have with others online have mandated real world ramifications - they did not previously have...

Significant self harm and suicide have been demonstrably linked to issues of cyber bullying (and yes at times, in conjunction with real world bullying as well)...

For my part, I think that actually quite pointedly challenges your assertion that it is Johnsmith wrote on Oct 2nd, 2015 at 4:58pm:
only abuse if you let it be.


That may have been the case once, however, now days it might also be abuse if it is reported to a statutory authority who agrees that it is abuse...
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Phemanderac
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Re: So, What is personal abuse really...
Reply #16 - Oct 2nd, 2015 at 5:33pm  
Johnsmith wrote on Oct 2nd, 2015 at 4:58pm:
Seriously, Who gives a fig


Ironically, the problems start when someone does give a fig and, that someone often does for a range of reasons.

Sure, you can disagree with their reasons, however, if you allow your dismissal of verbal abuse guide your choices to abuse - then you are inflicting your view onto others... Being an abuser or, as was pointed out a cyber bully.

Now, logically, if cyber bullying wasn't a real world issue in our very modern world - there would not be a term for it, or research into managing it or, for that matter, ideas and debate about legislation changes (some changes have been implemented in some jurisdictions) making cyber bullying a real world crime.

I think perhaps you might not be keeping up with modern cultural norms here. Now days, the interactions we have with others online have mandated real world ramifications - they did not previously have...

Significant self harm and suicide have been demonstrably linked to issues of cyber bullying (and yes at times, in conjunction with real world bullying as well)...

For my part, I think that actually quite pointedly challenges your assertion that it is Johnsmith wrote on Oct 2nd, 2015 at 4:58pm:
only abuse if you let it be.


That may have been the case once, however, now days it might also be abuse if it is reported to a statutory authority who agrees that it is abuse...
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On the 26th of January you are all invited to celebrate little white penal day...

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mariacostel
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Re: So, What is personal abuse really...
Reply #17 - Oct 2nd, 2015 at 5:50pm  
Phemanderac wrote on Oct 2nd, 2015 at 5:31pm:
Johnsmith wrote on Oct 2nd, 2015 at 4:58pm:
Seriously, Who gives a fig


Ironically, the problems start when someone does give a fig and, that someone often does for a range of reasons.

Sure, you can disagree with their reasons, however, if you allow your dismissal of verbal abuse guide your choices to abuse - then you are inflicting your view onto others... Being an abuser or, as was pointed out a cyber bully.

Now, logically, if cyber bullying wasn't a real world issue in our very modern world - there would not be a term for it, or research into managing it or, for that matter, ideas and debate about legislation changes (some changes have been implemented in some jurisdictions) making cyber bullying a real world crime.

I think perhaps you might not be keeping up with modern cultural norms here. Now days, the interactions we have with others online have mandated real world ramifications - they did not previously have...

Significant self harm and suicide have been demonstrably linked to issues of cyber bullying (and yes at times, in conjunction with real world bullying as well)...

For my part, I think that actually quite pointedly challenges your assertion that it is Johnsmith wrote on Oct 2nd, 2015 at 4:58pm:
only abuse if you let it be.


That may have been the case once, however, now days it might also be abuse if it is reported to a statutory authority who agrees that it is abuse...



It was stone-age thinking prior to the internet to simply believe that your words and writings have no power to harm. In the internet-era such thinking is beyond ignorant and becoming literally criminal.
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aquascoot
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Re: So, What is personal abuse really...
Reply #18 - Oct 2nd, 2015 at 5:59pm  
a couple of points

people tend to clutch to their opinions even more firmly when they are abused. its human nature (and its lao tzu's finding in art of war)  to fortify your position when under attack .
so if someone is attacking someone, they have to realise, no one is going to have an A Ha moment and suddenly do an about turn....in fact the very opposite will occur.

i like to see other peoples opinions as it is simply the "comfortable position" to surround yourself with syncophants and indulge in group think.  no one ever learnt a thing from this.

i will sometimes express an opinion which is totally contrary to my actual opinion.
usually i will do this when someone i have had no comeback to someones opinion in the real world, so i will post that and pick through the responses so as to formulate a better way of expressing myself.

for example, i have no problem with gay marriage or abortion but i know people who do.
by posting a position opposed to gay marriage or abortion, one gets some very cool responses which can then be used in real time (sort of like "i wish i had said that")  is this trolling.
perhaps.
i view the internet as a place to "tinker with ideas"  see what works before applying it in real world dynamics.
i find it a fairly light hearted forum and i think most people mean well.
i think there are some very intelligent posters on here and i enjoy reading all their opinions.
i'm a very self confident person and if you arent, you can always use an abuser as a source of resilience training and then this becomes a win/win
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Re: So, What is personal abuse really...
Reply #19 - Oct 2nd, 2015 at 6:40pm  
Phemanderac wrote on Oct 2nd, 2015 at 5:33pm:
the problems start when someone does give a fig and, that someone often does for a range of reasons



I don't disagree, but like I said, they have bigger problems they should deal with first before they worry about the abuse

Phemanderac wrote on Oct 2nd, 2015 at 5:33pm:
I think perhaps you might not be keeping up with modern cultural norms here


why? Who ever said cyber bullying doesn't exist?

Phemanderac wrote on Oct 2nd, 2015 at 5:33pm:
Significant self harm and suicide have been demonstrably linked to issues of cyber bullying (and yes at times, in conjunction with real world bullying as well)...


is the real problem the cyber bullying, or did they perhaps have other underlying problems that led to them not dealing with the cyber bullying in a reasonable manner?

Phemanderac wrote on Oct 2nd, 2015 at 5:33pm:
however, now days it might also be abuse if it is reported to a statutory authority who agrees that it is abuse...


that's because as a society we are increasingly wrapping our kids up in cotton wool, which means they then cannot deal with reality so the authorities have to wrap them up in cotton wool as adults too.
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mariacostel
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Re: So, What is personal abuse really...
Reply #20 - Oct 2nd, 2015 at 6:46pm  
Johnsmith wrote on Oct 2nd, 2015 at 6:40pm:
Phemanderac wrote on Oct 2nd, 2015 at 5:33pm:
the problems start when someone does give a fig and, that someone often does for a range of reasons



I don't disagree, but like I said, they have bigger problems they should deal with first before they worry about the abuse

Phemanderac wrote on Oct 2nd, 2015 at 5:33pm:
I think perhaps you might not be keeping up with modern cultural norms here


why? Who ever said cyber bullying doesn't exist?

Phemanderac wrote on Oct 2nd, 2015 at 5:33pm:
Significant self harm and suicide have been demonstrably linked to issues of cyber bullying (and yes at times, in conjunction with real world bullying as well)...


is the real problem the cyber bullying, or did they perhaps have other underlying problems that led to them not dealing with the cyber bullying in a reasonable manner?

Phemanderac wrote on Oct 2nd, 2015 at 5:33pm:
however, now days it might also be abuse if it is reported to a statutory authority who agrees that it is abuse...


that's because as a society we are increasingly wrapping our kids up in cotton wool, which means they then cannot deal with reality so the authorities have to wrap them up in cotton wool as adults too.


You sound like Fred Flintstone with these attitudes. If your kids are every cyber-bullied you will clearly be of no help or probably even aware.
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Re: So, What is personal abuse really...
Reply #21 - Oct 2nd, 2015 at 7:33pm  
Phemanderac wrote on Oct 2nd, 2015 at 3:46pm:
As the cycle goes, it would seem that abuse is floating about as a topic of interest (angst perhaps might be a better word...).

We even have a thread dedicated to posting up examples of abuse, which, given a lot of what is posted prompted this thread.

What exactly do you see as personal abuse?

Is it someone disagreeing with your perspective?

Is it someone articulating that a point made was stupid, ill conceived, uninformed or somehow in error?

Is it someone calling you names?

Is it saying mean things about someone who is in no position to defend themselves? (that's a really tricky one, because, if one diligently follows the forum rules, they have no right to defend themselves from abuse...)?

Is it abuse to attack what is written?

Is it abuse to attack the poster?

Is it abuse to refer to people's life experience in negative terms?

Is it abuse to refer to people's capacity (to think, comprehend, understand, articulate, live, survive, use logic...)

Is it abuse to refer to (say for example) flawed logic used to support an argument?

Is a written idea or point that you find offensive abuse?

Is abuse deserved?

Whilst I most certainly have my own ideas about what constitutes abuse, I am interested in what others genuinely think this means...


Welcome to 21st century democracy via social media technology.

Its not really such a bad world, even with that lol
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Re: So, What is personal abuse really...
Reply #22 - Oct 2nd, 2015 at 7:38pm  
mariacostel wrote on Oct 2nd, 2015 at 6:46pm:
Johnsmith wrote on Oct 2nd, 2015 at 6:40pm:
Phemanderac wrote on Oct 2nd, 2015 at 5:33pm:
the problems start when someone does give a fig and, that someone often does for a range of reasons



I don't disagree, but like I said, they have bigger problems they should deal with first before they worry about the abuse

Phemanderac wrote on Oct 2nd, 2015 at 5:33pm:
I think perhaps you might not be keeping up with modern cultural norms here


why? Who ever said cyber bullying doesn't exist?

Phemanderac wrote on Oct 2nd, 2015 at 5:33pm:
Significant self harm and suicide have been demonstrably linked to issues of cyber bullying (and yes at times, in conjunction with real world bullying as well)...


is the real problem the cyber bullying, or did they perhaps have other underlying problems that led to them not dealing with the cyber bullying in a reasonable manner?

Phemanderac wrote on Oct 2nd, 2015 at 5:33pm:
however, now days it might also be abuse if it is reported to a statutory authority who agrees that it is abuse...


that's because as a society we are increasingly wrapping our kids up in cotton wool, which means they then cannot deal with reality so the authorities have to wrap them up in cotton wool as adults too.


You sound like Fred Flintstone with these attitudes. If your kids are every cyber-bullied you will clearly be of no help or probably even aware.


I suspect I will be of more help than you. You can pretend deal with the anonymous person on the other side of the WWW by comparing them to Fred Flinstone or some other such character, I'll deal with the underlying issues so that when you do compare them to Fred, they won't lose a seconds sleep over it.
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Re: So, What is personal abuse really...
Reply #23 - Oct 2nd, 2015 at 9:15pm  
Johnsmith wrote on Oct 2nd, 2015 at 6:40pm:
I don't disagree, but like I said, they have bigger problems they should deal with first before they worry about the abuse


That seems contradictory. I mean, if one does not inadvertently (or intentionally) blame the victim then the point is, they should not actually have to worry about the abuse at all - that is something the abuser should not cause them to worry about!

Johnsmith wrote on Oct 2nd, 2015 at 6:40pm:
is the real problem the cyber bullying,


Yes...

Johnsmith wrote on Oct 2nd, 2015 at 6:40pm:
they perhaps have other underlying problems that led to them not dealing with the cyber bullying in a reasonable manner?


Again we have a little bit of victim blaming.

What is "dealing with the cyber bullying in a reasonable manner" in your opinion?

It might not hurt to consider, is the act of bullying reasonable itself?

Johnsmith wrote on Oct 2nd, 2015 at 6:40pm:
that's because as a society we are increasingly wrapping our kids up in cotton wool,


Funny how with all that cotton wool about the place Youth suicide rates are significant. Not to mention self harm, mental health issues etc etc etc...

What exactly is the cotton wool wrapping you reckon is happening and where is it located? Pretty thin on the ground where I come from.
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Re: So, What is personal abuse really...
Reply #24 - Oct 2nd, 2015 at 9:45pm  
Phemanderac wrote on Oct 2nd, 2015 at 9:15pm:
That seems contradictory.


not at all ...

Phemanderac wrote on Oct 2nd, 2015 at 9:15pm:
I mean, if one does not inadvertently (or intentionally) blame the victim then the point is, they should not actually have to worry about the abuse at all -


if they worked on their self esteem they wouldn't worry about what someone says on the net

Phemanderac wrote on Oct 2nd, 2015 at 9:15pm:
Again we have a little bit of victim blaming.


not at all ... I just don't see how someone can care so much what some anonymous person on the www says ... if they do they have bigger problems than what the person on the www says

Phemanderac wrote on Oct 2nd, 2015 at 9:15pm:
What is "dealing with the cyber bullying in a reasonable manner" in your opinion?



for that you need a clear cut definition

Phemanderac wrote on Oct 2nd, 2015 at 9:15pm:
unny how with all that cotton wool about the place Youth suicide rates are significant.



thats exactly WHY suicide rates are so high. They don't learn to deal with reality and all that it encompasses because they've been wrapped up in wool for their whole life. Life isn't all about hugs and kisses and medals for coming last. Life is full of disappointments and learning to deal with them appropriately is was part of the growing up process, until now.

Do you know that according to 'The politically incorrect parenting guide' (I think it was Australia although it could have been referring to the UK) , 50% of kids aren't even allowed to go out into their own backyards unsupervised because their parents are afraid they'll get hurt? Plus 80% of todays kids have NEVER climbed a tree ... I find those stats quiet sad.
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Re: So, What is personal abuse really...
Reply #25 - Oct 2nd, 2015 at 10:40pm  
I voted other, which isn't there. Its politics, get over it.
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Re: So, What is personal abuse really...
Reply #26 - Oct 3rd, 2015 at 7:32am  
Johnsmith wrote on Oct 2nd, 2015 at 9:45pm:
if they worked on their self esteem they wouldn't worry about what someone says on the net


Actually its resilience more so than self esteem on its own. However, the they you speak of are the victims.... So rather than say abuse is wrong, you say the victim should harden up.

By definition mate, that is victim blaming, you can deny it all you like, but it is what it is.

I am all for us building up our kids resilience, however, not every individual has the same capacity there.

Please stop blaming the victims, it is the bully after all who is in the wrong don't you think?

Johnsmith wrote on Oct 2nd, 2015 at 9:45pm:
I just don't see how someone can care so much what some anonymous person on the www says ... if they do they have bigger problems than what the person on the www says


So because your vision in this is limited (by your own admission) you should set the bench mark for others?

No mate, victim blaming is exactly what you are doing.

The bully needs to learn not to be a bully.

The rest was opinionated (yep I know its all OPINION) and ill informed rubbish.

The high incidents of self harm and youth suicide, directly relating to bullying are because of the despicable actions of bullies. A lot has been done on building resilience, particularly with young people, however, there are sound reasons why a significant amount of work goes into STOPPING BULLYING - Having good resilience is helpful generally in life, however, it is not and should not be used as a defense, justification or excuse to allow bullies to run the race...

The issue is the bully, not whether their target needs to harden up or not.

It's pretty amazing, even in this tawdry little microcosm that you can't recognise how people target each other - you even do that....

Let's face it, no one doing the targeting goes for people who might be a challenge, ignore them etc etc etc - bully's deliberately pick their marks...
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Johnsmith
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Re: So, What is personal abuse really...
Reply #27 - Oct 3rd, 2015 at 7:37am  
Phemanderac wrote on Oct 3rd, 2015 at 7:32am:
So because your vision in this is limited (by your own admission) you should set the bench mark for others?



I set my bench mark by my standards Phem ... you think I should set my benchmark based on others standards?

Phemanderac wrote on Oct 3rd, 2015 at 7:32am:
The issue is the bully, not whether their target needs to harden up or not.


according to your standards .... I disagree, I think it has to do with both. There are two parts to every story . Your just looking at one side and ignoring the other
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Re: So, What is personal abuse really...
Reply #28 - Oct 3rd, 2015 at 7:47am  
Anything derogatory towards Bogarde, his posts, his personal appearance, his sexual fantasies (list available on request), his age or any other matter hereinafter thought of,will be considered as abuse.
And aanyone found guilty of this offence is liable to a period of 2 years detention in the Greens Party.
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Re: So, What is personal abuse really...
Reply #29 - Oct 3rd, 2015 at 8:22am  
mariacostel wrote on Oct 2nd, 2015 at 4:35pm:
Kytro wrote on Oct 2nd, 2015 at 4:09pm:
mariacostel wrote on Oct 2nd, 2015 at 4:04pm:
This is hardly an elevated platform for discussion so some of the rules need a bit more leeway. If for example you have someone who repeatedly says things that most of us know to be false and/or idiotic and is unable to be reasoned with (eg Unforgiven) at what point does calling them an idiot cease to be abusive and merely a statement of unequivocal fact?


I can't see a good reason to do this. Frustrating as it can be, nothing of value can be gained by attacking a poster by calling then names.


As a rule I would agree. There are however the rare poster(s) where calling them an idiot or stupid would be nothing more than a statement of medical fact. Tactless for sure. Rude, definitely. But not incorrect!

This however is a day when I was accused by the obviously drunk Cods of being a paedo-supporter which according to one PM message is her standard response on the topic of children obviously drunk Cods . So perhaps not a good day for me to respond to this question.



that as you can see phem is not longweekends idea of ABUSE its stating a fact... Roll Eyes Roll Eyes the facts are.. are dont bring the topic he is referring to into the conversation....and I dont call him names or suggest he is a drink... I just tell it as he has said it in the past.......

which obviously he cannot stand.. one of the reasons to change his ID I am sure even tough its fooled no one...

have I reported his abuse.. as I call it that... no I havent...it makes me laugh like in aussies case where they attack others in the most unbecoming way... yet have the hide to talk about what they see as others abuse.... Grin Grin Grin..

I do my level best to not call people names especially drunk.. I do not call maria a paedo...I just say what he has said in the past....he can deny all he likes but we have had many arguments over this and I have never once stooped to the level he does on every occasion...

my answer to abuse is.. this phem''
if you have to come down to the level of say what marie has said about myself.. then as far as I am concerned you have somethign to worry about...only those with a weak argument stoop to that level...just like name calling in the playground...I have little time for it.. and do my best to avoid these people as I know I would never ever like to be in the same place as them...

I expect you to find somewhere where I have personally abused someone  check with aussies fun thread I am sure he would have somethign on me....is it low and spiteful...like these comments

obviously drunk Cods

PM message is her standard response on the topic of children obviously drunk Cods


btw phem I have never ever PMd this person....

  its also  very noticable she/he never denies what I say.. its always this kind of personal  response....
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