Australian Politics Forum - Should the TPP be put to a plebiscite?

Bam

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Re: Should the TPP be put to a plebiscite?
Reply #45 - Oct 21^st, 2015 at 7:59am

ImSpartacus2 wrote on Oct 21^st, 2015 at 7:42am:

Armchair_Politician wrote on Oct 20^th, 2015 at 8:18am:

____ wrote on Oct 20^th, 2015 at 7:56am:

As usual, Bam forwards a logical position.
Since the TPP promotes a secret court, so businesses can sue Australia, to the highest of courts, then a plebiscite on the TPP is a must.

So it follows then that we should've been given a plebiscite on the carbon tax, right?

Yes absolutely. No one should decide an issue as important as this but us AND I'm confident we wo9uld have a carbin tax as a consequence

I'm not sure we would have had a fixed-price carbon tax if the plebiscite had given us a choice of models.

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ImSpartacus2

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Re: Should the TPP be put to a plebiscite?
Reply #46 - Oct 21^st, 2015 at 8:00am

Bam wrote on Oct 20^th, 2015 at 11:48am:

The TPP also binds the people to the power of corporations, without a corresponding transfer of power from corporations to the people.

Also there has been no genuine assessment as to whether it will lose more jobs then it will create AND no assessment as to whether it will drive domestic wages even further down. Frankly they dont give a sh!t whether Aust jobs are lost just as long as the few at the top make their money and were left with the BS trickle down scam which we're supposed to assume will create more jobs then destroy eventhough we will be competing with slave wages. This TPP is definitely a lose lose for everyone but the few. Time to insist on real democracy and put this sh!t TPP to a vote.

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mariacostel

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Re: Should the TPP be put to a plebiscite?
Reply #47 - Oct 21^st, 2015 at 8:02am

Aussie wrote on Oct 20^th, 2015 at 6:10pm:

mariacostel wrote on Oct 20^th, 2015 at 5:45pm:

Jovial Monk wrote on Oct 20^th, 2015 at 5:37pm:

So doesn’t that show we should be careful about signing up to much more exposure to ISDS?

You really don’t think clearly, eh Mongy?

The point is that it was your beloved Labor that put this in place. And a constitutional issue that none of you have ever bothered to address is that the constitution says that NO EXTERNAL GOVERNMENT OR BODY can makes laws or seek to enforce them in Australia. It simply is not permitted under any circumstances.

Not saying you are not correct. I've not come across it, is all. What section?

I'm hardly a lawyer so you go look for it. But think about it. Does it not make sense that the constitution would explicitly make the federal government the supreme body in the country? Can you imagine any country permitting another to establish laws in its territory?

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ImSpartacus2

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Re: Should the TPP be put to a plebiscite?
Reply #48 - Oct 21^st, 2015 at 8:08am

Bam wrote on Oct 21^st, 2015 at 7:59am:

ImSpartacus2 wrote on Oct 21^st, 2015 at 7:42am:

Armchair_Politician wrote on Oct 20^th, 2015 at 8:18am:

____ wrote on Oct 20^th, 2015 at 7:56am:

As usual, Bam forwards a logical position.
Since the TPP promotes a secret court, so businesses can sue Australia, to the highest of courts, then a plebiscite on the TPP is a must.

So it follows then that we should've been given a plebiscite on the carbon tax, right?

Yes absolutely. No one should decide an issue as important as this but us AND I'm confident we wo9uld have a carbin tax as a consequence

I'm not sure we would have had a fixed-price carbon tax if the plebiscite had given us a choice of models.

You can't say I support democracy just as long as the majority always supports what i support. So I think if you truly believe in democracy then a decision as important to everyone as this must be put to the people to decide. Having said that I truly believe that when properly debated the people make far better decisions then government by the few.

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mariacostel

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Re: Should the TPP be put to a plebiscite?
Reply #49 - Oct 21^st, 2015 at 8:20am

ImSpartacus2 wrote on Oct 21^st, 2015 at 7:42am:

Armchair_Politician wrote on Oct 20^th, 2015 at 8:18am:

____ wrote on Oct 20^th, 2015 at 7:56am:

As usual, Bam forwards a logical position.
Since the TPP promotes a secret court, so businesses can sue Australia, to the highest of courts, then a plebiscite on the TPP is a must.

So it follows then that we should've been given a plebiscite on the carbon tax, right?

Yes absolutely. No one should decide an issue as important as this but us AND I'm confident we wo9uld have a carbin tax as a consequence

You can be confident all you like but it would be misplaced. All polls taken on the question had the strong majority of people opposed to the carbon tax and when they were finally allowed to have their say, executed the labor government.

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mariacostel

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Re: Should the TPP be put to a plebiscite?
Reply #50 - Oct 21^st, 2015 at 8:22am

ImSpartacus2 wrote on Oct 21^st, 2015 at 8:08am:

Bam wrote on Oct 21^st, 2015 at 7:59am:

ImSpartacus2 wrote on Oct 21^st, 2015 at 7:42am:

Armchair_Politician wrote on Oct 20^th, 2015 at 8:18am:

____ wrote on Oct 20^th, 2015 at 7:56am:

As usual, Bam forwards a logical position.
Since the TPP promotes a secret court, so businesses can sue Australia, to the highest of courts, then a plebiscite on the TPP is a must.

So it follows then that we should've been given a plebiscite on the carbon tax, right?

Yes absolutely. No one should decide an issue as important as this but us AND I'm confident we wo9uld have a carbin tax as a consequence

I'm not sure we would have had a fixed-price carbon tax if the plebiscite had given us a choice of models.

You can't say I support democracy just as long as the majority always supports what i support. So I think if you truly believe in democracy then a decision as important to everyone as this must be put to the people to decide. Having said that I truly believe that when properly debated the people make far better decisions then government by the few.

Implicit in your wish is the hilarious suggestion that the average voter is in any way informed or educated enough to make a decision based on actual knowledge. it would end up being nothing more than a vote on the party's positions and simply worthless.

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Jovial Monk Gold Member Offline Dogs not cats! Posts: 45888 Gender:	Re: Should the TPP be put to a plebiscite? Reply #51 - Oct 21^st, 2015 at 8:23am Once the Carbon Price was operating and people saw how the Libs had over-exaggerated the consequences of a CP ($100 legs of lamb, Whyalla wiped off the map etc) they favored a CP. If bloody Rudd hadn’t ratted on Julia we would still have decent govt and a carbon price. Instead we are in recession.
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mariacostel

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Re: Should the TPP be put to a plebiscite?
Reply #52 - Oct 21^st, 2015 at 8:29am

Jovial Monk wrote on Oct 21^st, 2015 at 8:23am:

Once the Carbon Price was operating and people saw how the Libs had over-exaggerated the consequences of a CP ($100 legs of lamb, Whyalla wiped off the map etc) they favored a CP.

If bloody Rudd hadn’t ratted on Julia we would still have decent govt and a carbon price. Instead we are in recession.

They never did at all. An arithmetic majority opposed the CT and that never changed.

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ImSpartacus2

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Re: Should the TPP be put to a plebiscite?
Reply #53 - Oct 21^st, 2015 at 8:59am

mariacostel wrote on Oct 21^st, 2015 at 8:20am:

ImSpartacus2 wrote on Oct 21^st, 2015 at 7:42am:

Armchair_Politician wrote on Oct 20^th, 2015 at 8:18am:

____ wrote on Oct 20^th, 2015 at 7:56am:

As usual, Bam forwards a logical position.
Since the TPP promotes a secret court, so businesses can sue Australia, to the highest of courts, then a plebiscite on the TPP is a must.

So it follows then that we should've been given a plebiscite on the carbon tax, right?

Yes absolutely. No one should decide an issue as important as this but us AND I'm confident we wo9uld have a carbin tax as a consequence

You can be confident all you like but it would be misplaced. All polls taken on the question had the strong majority of people opposed to the carbon tax and when they were finally allowed to have their say, executed the labor government.

Yes yes we know how reliable you are when it comes to the facts. And here's something that you should understand but clearly lack the intelligence to do so. Elections, with all the thousands of issues on the table including personalities and scandals etc, are not plebicites and they tell us close to nothing about what the people want in respect of individual issues.

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ImSpartacus2

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Re: Should the TPP be put to a plebiscite?
Reply #54 - Oct 21^st, 2015 at 9:04am

mariacostel wrote on Oct 21^st, 2015 at 8:22am:

ImSpartacus2 wrote on Oct 21^st, 2015 at 8:08am:

Bam wrote on Oct 21^st, 2015 at 7:59am:

ImSpartacus2 wrote on Oct 21^st, 2015 at 7:42am:

Armchair_Politician wrote on Oct 20^th, 2015 at 8:18am:

____ wrote on Oct 20^th, 2015 at 7:56am:

As usual, Bam forwards a logical position.
Since the TPP promotes a secret court, so businesses can sue Australia, to the highest of courts, then a plebiscite on the TPP is a must.

So it follows then that we should've been given a plebiscite on the carbon tax, right?

Yes absolutely. No one should decide an issue as important as this but us AND I'm confident we wo9uld have a carbin tax as a consequence

I'm not sure we would have had a fixed-price carbon tax if the plebiscite had given us a choice of models.

You can't say I support democracy just as long as the majority always supports what i support. So I think if you truly believe in democracy then a decision as important to everyone as this must be put to the people to decide. Having said that I truly believe that when properly debated the people make far better decisions then government by the few.

Implicit in your wish is the hilarious suggestion that the average voter is in any way informed or educated enough to make a decision based on actual knowledge. it would end up being nothing more than a vote on the party's positions and simply worthless.

It always surprises me how someone as little informed and as incapable of logical deduction as you are thinks they are are capable of making better decisions then the average joe. In fact I have no doubt that your presence in the polity lowers the average intelligence of the whole.

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Jovial Monk

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Re: Should the TPP be put to a plebiscite?
Reply #55 - Oct 21^st, 2015 at 9:17am

mariacostel wrote on Oct 21^st, 2015 at 8:29am:

Jovial Monk wrote on Oct 21^st, 2015 at 8:23am:

Once the Carbon Price was operating and people saw how the Libs had over-exaggerated the consequences of a CP ($100 legs of lamb, Whyalla wiped off the map etc) they favored a CP.

If bloody Rudd hadn’t ratted on Julia we would still have decent govt and a carbon price. Instead we are in recession.

They never did at all. An arithmetic majority opposed the CT and that never changed.

You are making stuff up again. Read the various polls that ask questions re policy.

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Bam

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Re: Should the TPP be put to a plebiscite?
Reply #56 - Oct 21^st, 2015 at 9:33am

mariacostel wrote on Oct 21^st, 2015 at 8:02am:

Aussie wrote on Oct 20^th, 2015 at 6:10pm:

mariacostel wrote on Oct 20^th, 2015 at 5:45pm:

Jovial Monk wrote on Oct 20^th, 2015 at 5:37pm:

So doesn’t that show we should be careful about signing up to much more exposure to ISDS?

You really don’t think clearly, eh Mongy?

The point is that it was your beloved Labor that put this in place. And a constitutional issue that none of you have ever bothered to address is that the constitution says that NO EXTERNAL GOVERNMENT OR BODY can makes laws or seek to enforce them in Australia. It simply is not permitted under any circumstances.

Not saying you are not correct. I've not come across it, is all. What section?

I'm hardly a lawyer so you go look for it.

Don't be lazy. You made the claim, you prove it.

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You are not entitled to your opinion. You are only entitled to hold opinions that you can defend through sound, reasoned argument.

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Jovial Monk

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Re: Should the TPP be put to a plebiscite?
Reply #57 - Oct 21^st, 2015 at 9:45am

What Mongy means, tho he has given no evidence as usual, is that a Labor govt signed a treaty/FTA that included ISDS.

It is under ISDS that the Pushers in Suits are suing us in secretive courts to try and overturn our Plain Packaging laws.

It seems clear that ISDS is to be avoided like the plague but the fanbois are all for it, bless their low intelligence.

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bogarde73

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Re: Should the TPP be put to a plebiscite?
Reply #58 - Oct 21^st, 2015 at 10:42am

I'd be happy with a plebiscite, as long as voting was restricted to those holding degrees in Law, Economics as well as an MBA.
They are the only people who would understand it, if and when they get to see it in its entirety and can spend weeks studying it.

It would just be a joke to put it to a vote by the general public.

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mariacostel

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Re: Should the TPP be put to a plebiscite?
Reply #59 - Oct 21^st, 2015 at 10:47am

ImSpartacus2 wrote on Oct 21^st, 2015 at 9:04am:

mariacostel wrote on Oct 21^st, 2015 at 8:22am:

ImSpartacus2 wrote on Oct 21^st, 2015 at 8:08am:

Bam wrote on Oct 21^st, 2015 at 7:59am:

ImSpartacus2 wrote on Oct 21^st, 2015 at 7:42am:

Armchair_Politician wrote on Oct 20^th, 2015 at 8:18am:

____ wrote on Oct 20^th, 2015 at 7:56am:

As usual, Bam forwards a logical position.
Since the TPP promotes a secret court, so businesses can sue Australia, to the highest of courts, then a plebiscite on the TPP is a must.

So it follows then that we should've been given a plebiscite on the carbon tax, right?

Yes absolutely. No one should decide an issue as important as this but us AND I'm confident we wo9uld have a carbin tax as a consequence

I'm not sure we would have had a fixed-price carbon tax if the plebiscite had given us a choice of models.

You can't say I support democracy just as long as the majority always supports what i support. So I think if you truly believe in democracy then a decision as important to everyone as this must be put to the people to decide. Having said that I truly believe that when properly debated the people make far better decisions then government by the few.

Implicit in your wish is the hilarious suggestion that the average voter is in any way informed or educated enough to make a decision based on actual knowledge. it would end up being nothing more than a vote on the party's positions and simply worthless.

It always surprises me how someone as little informed and as incapable of logical deduction as you are thinks they are are capable of making better decisions then the average joe. In fact I have no doubt that your presence in the polity lowers the average intelligence of the whole.

The Carbon Tax was a hated tax and so by a solid majority. You can pretend otherwise if you wish and you undoubtedly will do just that.

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