Australian Politics Forum - The trend continues

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Re: The trend continues - mama's new boyfriend ..
Reply #225 - Nov 6^th, 2015 at 3:53pm

It's only 12 pages long, 8 if you don't include the references.

Quote:

The most thorough analyses are for Canada, where data in a national archive of all homicides known to
police indicate that children under 5 years of age were beaten to death by their putative genetic fathers
at a rate of 2.6 deaths per million child-years at risk (residing with their fathers) in 1974-1990, while the
corresponding rate for stepfathers was over 120 times greater

...

Estimates of this sort have not been made for other countries, but it is clear that this immense excess risk
to stepchildren is not peculiar to Canada. In England & Wales in 1977-1990, for example, 117
children under five years of age were beaten to death by putative genetic fathers and 103 by stepfathers
(Daly & Wilson 1994). As in Canada, the available population-at-large survey data indicate that fewer
than 1% of British children of the same age as the victims dwelt with stepfathers, while over 90% dwelt
with putative genetic fathers, and so, as in Canada, the difference in per capita rates of such fatal
assaults is well over 100-fold.

...

Australian data indicate an even larger Cinderella effect. Wallace (1986) reported that perpetrators of
fatal baby batterings in New South Wales in 1968-1981 included 11 putative genetic fathers and 18
stepfathers, even though the victims’ median age was only 12 months. Strang (1996) reported that
comparable cases for the country as a whole in 1989-1993 included 11 children killed by putative
genetic fathers and 12 by stepfathers, although the victims’ median age was in this case less than 1 year.
For both of these samples, the age distribution was such that fewer than 0.5% of a random sample of
same-age children from the population-at-large would be expected to have had a stepfather according
to Australian Family Characteristics Survey data, and the estimated relative risk from stepfathers vs
genetic fathers exceeds 300-fold.

...

This mirrors the animal kingdom where the new alpha killing the offspring of other males is relatively common. I know some people like to think human instincts are somehow different, or even completely opposite to those of other species, but that's just not true. Animal instincts can be detected in almost everything we do.

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Kamal

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Re: The trend continues - mama's new boyfriend ..
Reply #226 - Nov 6^th, 2015 at 3:54pm

mothra wrote on Nov 6^th, 2015 at 3:50pm:

Kamal wrote on Nov 6^th, 2015 at 3:48pm:

Or maybe you could look it up yourself, now there's a thought. Then again old girl google is complicated for some, no?

Well neither Grappler nor myself have been able to find anything to substantiate that at all.

I thought Honky might, seeing as he is the one making the claim.

He doesn't have to if he doesn't care whether you believe him or not.

Just like grapper doesn't have to substantiate his fairy tales on here regarding him being a secret agent man, no?

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mothra

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Re: The trend continues - mama's new boyfriend ..
Reply #227 - Nov 6^th, 2015 at 3:56pm

Kamal wrote on Nov 6^th, 2015 at 3:54pm:

mothra wrote on Nov 6^th, 2015 at 3:50pm:

Kamal wrote on Nov 6^th, 2015 at 3:48pm:

Or maybe you could look it up yourself, now there's a thought. Then again old girl google is complicated for some, no?

Well neither Grappler nor myself have been able to find anything to substantiate that at all.

I thought Honky might, seeing as he is the one making the claim.

He doesn't have to if he doesn't care whether you believe him or not.

Just like grapper doesn't have to substantiate his fairy tales on here regarding him being a secret agent man, no?

Well then, i shall just dismiss it out of hand.

Do you think that is what Honky intends me to do with his statement on a debating forum?

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Lisa Jones

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Re: The trend continues - mama's new boyfriend ..
Reply #228 - Nov 6^th, 2015 at 4:04pm

... wrote on Nov 6^th, 2015 at 3:53pm:

It's only 12 pages long, 8 if you don't include the references.

Quote:

The most thorough analyses are for Canada, where data in a national archive of all homicides known to
police indicate that children under 5 years of age were beaten to death by their putative genetic fathers
at a rate of 2.6 deaths per million child-years at risk (residing with their fathers) in 1974-1990, while the
corresponding rate for stepfathers was over 120 times greater

...

Estimates of this sort have not been made for other countries, but it is clear that this immense excess risk
to stepchildren is not peculiar to Canada. In England & Wales in 1977-1990, for example, 117
children under five years of age were beaten to death by putative genetic fathers and 103 by stepfathers
(Daly & Wilson 1994). As in Canada, the available population-at-large survey data indicate that fewer
than 1% of British children of the same age as the victims dwelt with stepfathers, while over 90% dwelt
with putative genetic fathers, and so, as in Canada, the difference in per capita rates of such fatal
assaults is well over 100-fold.

...

Australian data indicate an even larger Cinderella effect. Wallace (1986) reported that perpetrators of
fatal baby batterings in New South Wales in 1968-1981 included 11 putative genetic fathers and 18
stepfathers, even though the victims’ median age was only 12 months. Strang (1996) reported that
comparable cases for the country as a whole in 1989-1993 included 11 children killed by putative
genetic fathers and 12 by stepfathers, although the victims’ median age was in this case less than 1 year.
For both of these samples, the age distribution was such that fewer than 0.5% of a random sample of
same-age children from the population-at-large would be expected to have had a stepfather according
to Australian Family Characteristics Survey data, and the estimated relative risk from stepfathers vs
genetic fathers exceeds 300-fold.

...

This mirrors the animal kingdom where the new alpha killing the offspring of other males is relatively common. I know some people like to think human instincts are somehow different, or even completely opposite to those of other species, but that's just not true. Animal instincts can be detected in almost everything we do.

Hey Honky, I was busy here reading up on another case study (UK based).

It appears that step dads are indeed more likely to abuse kids compared to genetic dads.

As we live in a world where divorce and blended families are the new norm it's impt for the sake of our children and their safety that we take heed and exhibit great care in choosing a new partner.

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If I let myself be bought then I am no longer free.

HYPATIA - Greek philosopher, mathematician and astronomer (370 - 415)

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...

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Re: The trend continues - mama's new boyfriend ..
Reply #229 - Nov 6^th, 2015 at 4:08pm

As for the mothers v fathers question, it's a little harder to paint, for several reasons:

1. Sometimes disitnctions are drawn between filicide and infanticide (which is almost exclusively committed by mothers) making a wholistic view impossible.
2. No distinctions being made between small dependent children and teenage or grown children. It's relatively common for fathers and their grown sons to fight, and one of them ends up dead.
3. No distinctions between fathers and stepfathers (or cuckolds).

No one study seems to put them all together, and I can't be buggered reconciling them all. However:

Quote:

Gender differences in filicide offense characteristics--a comprehensive register-based study of child murder in two European countries.

OBJECTIVE:

This study searched for gender differences in filicidal offense characteristics and associated variables.

METHODS:

In this bi-national register-based study all filicide perpetrators (75 mothers and 45 fathers) and their crimes in Austria and Finland 1995-2005 were examined for putative gender differences. The assessed variables were associated with the offense characteristics, the offenders' socioeconomic and criminal history, and related stressful events.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21620158

ALL cases in these 2 countries for a decade returned 75 instances attributable to the mother to 45 attributable to the father.

AND:

Quote:

59 percent of filicides were committed by mothers, 39 percent by fathers

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20542944

AND:

Abstract

Quote:

Background Filicide is the murder of a child by a parent. Historically, filicide was regarded as a female crime, but nowadays, in the West, men have become increasingly likely to be convicted of killing their child. Previous research on filicide has primarily focussed on either maternal or paternal filicide rather than comparing the two.

Aim The aim of our study is to examine and compare the socio-demographic, environmental and psychopathological factors underlying maternal and paternal filicide.

Methods Data were extracted from records in a forensic psychiatric observation hospital in Utrecht, in the Netherlands for the period 1953–2004.

Results Seventy-nine men and 82 women were detained in the hospital under criminal charges in that period, having killed (132) or attempted to kill (29) their own child(ren). Differences between men and women were found with regard to age, methods of killing and motivation underlying the filicide.

Quote:

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/cbm.695/abstract

To me this is the most interesting part:

Quote:

Historically, filicide was regarded as a female crime, but nowadays, in the West, men have become increasingly likely to be convicted of killing their child

The modern west...where the increasing number of men killing "their" child runs parallel to increasing numbers of men living with children that aren't theirs.

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« Last Edit: Nov 6^th, 2015 at 4:18pm by ... »

In the fullness of time...

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mothra

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Re: The trend continues - mama's new boyfriend ..
Reply #230 - Nov 6^th, 2015 at 4:10pm

Lisa Jones wrote on Nov 6^th, 2015 at 4:04pm:

... wrote on Nov 6^th, 2015 at 3:53pm:

It's only 12 pages long, 8 if you don't include the references.

Quote:

The most thorough analyses are for Canada, where data in a national archive of all homicides known to
police indicate that children under 5 years of age were beaten to death by their putative genetic fathers
at a rate of 2.6 deaths per million child-years at risk (residing with their fathers) in 1974-1990, while the
corresponding rate for stepfathers was over 120 times greater

...

Estimates of this sort have not been made for other countries, but it is clear that this immense excess risk
to stepchildren is not peculiar to Canada. In England & Wales in 1977-1990, for example, 117
children under five years of age were beaten to death by putative genetic fathers and 103 by stepfathers
(Daly & Wilson 1994). As in Canada, the available population-at-large survey data indicate that fewer
than 1% of British children of the same age as the victims dwelt with stepfathers, while over 90% dwelt
with putative genetic fathers, and so, as in Canada, the difference in per capita rates of such fatal
assaults is well over 100-fold.

...

Australian data indicate an even larger Cinderella effect. Wallace (1986) reported that perpetrators of
fatal baby batterings in New South Wales in 1968-1981 included 11 putative genetic fathers and 18
stepfathers, even though the victims’ median age was only 12 months. Strang (1996) reported that
comparable cases for the country as a whole in 1989-1993 included 11 children killed by putative
genetic fathers and 12 by stepfathers, although the victims’ median age was in this case less than 1 year.
For both of these samples, the age distribution was such that fewer than 0.5% of a random sample of
same-age children from the population-at-large would be expected to have had a stepfather according
to Australian Family Characteristics Survey data, and the estimated relative risk from stepfathers vs
genetic fathers exceeds 300-fold.

...

This mirrors the animal kingdom where the new alpha killing the offspring of other males is relatively common. I know some people like to think human instincts are somehow different, or even completely opposite to those of other species, but that's just not true. Animal instincts can be detected in almost everything we do.

Hey Honky, I was busy here reading up on another case study (UK based).

It appears that step dads are indeed more likely to abuse kids compared to genetic dads.

As we live in a world where divorce and blended families are the new norm it's impt for the sake of our children and their safety that we take heed and exhibit great care in choosing a new partner.

Yes Lisa. We've already established that.

Now we just need to establish whether or not the number of biological fathers that kill exceeds the number of women who kill, excepting neglect.

Can you find anything? The rest of us are coming up dry and you with your knowledge of, well, just about everything should be able to come to our rescue? Surely?

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mothra

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Re: The trend continues - mama's new boyfriend ..
Reply #231 - Nov 6^th, 2015 at 4:15pm

... wrote on Nov 6^th, 2015 at 4:08pm:

As for the mothers v fathers question, it's a little harder to paint, for several reasons:

1. Sometimes disitnctions are drawn between filicide and infanticide (which is almost exclusively committed by mothers) making a wholistic view impossible.
2. No distinctions being made between small dependent children and teenage or grown children. It's relatively common for fathers and their grown sons to fight, and one of them ends up dead.
3. No distinctions between fathers and stepfathers (or cuckolds).

No one study seems to put them all together, and I can't be buggered reconciling them all. However:

Quote:

Gender differences in filicide offense characteristics--a comprehensive register-based study of child murder in two European countries.

OBJECTIVE:

This study searched for gender differences in filicidal offense characteristics and associated variables.

METHODS:

In this bi-national register-based study all filicide perpetrators (75 mothers and 45 fathers) and their crimes in Austria and Finland 1995-2005 were examined for putative gender differences. The assessed variables were associated with the offense characteristics, the offenders' socioeconomic and criminal history, and related stressful events.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21620158

ALL cases in these 2 countries for a decade returned 75 instances attributable to the mother to 45 attributable to the father.

AND:

Quote:

59 percent of filicides were committed by mothers, 39 percent by fathers

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20542944

It is a tricky one to pin down isn't it?

As for your study, it included neglect as an example of maternal filicide. I've already conceded that the majority of cases of neglect are women or couples.

This is easily explained by the fact that the vast majority of primary care givers, so it's a stacked poll.

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« Last Edit: Nov 6^th, 2015 at 4:36pm by mothra »

If you can't be a good example, you have to be a horrible warning.

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Lisa Jones

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Re: The trend continues - mama's new boyfriend ..
Reply #232 - Nov 6^th, 2015 at 4:34pm

... wrote on Nov 6^th, 2015 at 4:08pm:

As for the mothers v fathers question, it's a little harder to paint, for several reasons:

1. Sometimes disitnctions are drawn between filicide and infanticide (which is almost exclusively committed by mothers) making a wholistic view impossible.
2. No distinctions being made between small dependent children and teenage or grown children. It's relatively common for fathers and their grown sons to fight, and one of them ends up dead.
3. No distinctions between fathers and stepfathers (or cuckolds).

No one study seems to put them all together, and I can't be buggered reconciling them all. However:

Quote:

Gender differences in filicide offense characteristics--a comprehensive register-based study of child murder in two European countries.

OBJECTIVE:

This study searched for gender differences in filicidal offense characteristics and associated variables.

METHODS:

In this bi-national register-based study all filicide perpetrators (75 mothers and 45 fathers) and their crimes in Austria and Finland 1995-2005 were examined for putative gender differences. The assessed variables were associated with the offense characteristics, the offenders' socioeconomic and criminal history, and related stressful events.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21620158

ALL cases in these 2 countries for a decade returned 75 instances attributable to the mother to 45 attributable to the father.

AND:

Quote:

59 percent of filicides were committed by mothers, 39 percent by fathers

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20542944

AND:

Abstract

Quote:

Background Filicide is the murder of a child by a parent. Historically, filicide was regarded as a female crime, but nowadays, in the West, men have become increasingly likely to be convicted of killing their child. Previous research on filicide has primarily focussed on either maternal or paternal filicide rather than comparing the two.

Aim The aim of our study is to examine and compare the socio-demographic, environmental and psychopathological factors underlying maternal and paternal filicide.

Methods Data were extracted from records in a forensic psychiatric observation hospital in Utrecht, in the Netherlands for the period 1953–2004.

Results Seventy-nine men and 82 women were detained in the hospital under criminal charges in that period, having killed (132) or attempted to kill (29) their own child(ren). Differences between men and women were found with regard to age, methods of killing and motivation underlying the filicide.

Quote:

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/cbm.695/abstract

To me this is the most interesting part:

Quote:

Historically, filicide was regarded as a female crime, but nowadays, in the West, men have become increasingly likely to be convicted of killing their child

The modern west...where the increasing number of men killing "their" child runs parallel to increasing numbers of men living with children that aren't theirs.

I was reading up on that study.

Anyway....it's Friday night.

Might come back later.

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If I let myself be bought then I am no longer free.

HYPATIA - Greek philosopher, mathematician and astronomer (370 - 415)

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cods

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Re: The trend continues - mama's new boyfriend ..
Reply #233 - Nov 6^th, 2015 at 4:39pm

... wrote on Nov 6^th, 2015 at 3:19pm:

cods wrote on Nov 6^th, 2015 at 3:05pm:

... wrote on Nov 6^th, 2015 at 2:55pm:

cods wrote on Nov 6^th, 2015 at 2:52pm:

... wrote on Nov 6^th, 2015 at 11:36am:

mothra wrote on Nov 6^th, 2015 at 11:27am:

Statistically, more fathers kill their children than mothers.

Incorrect. Do not confuse STEP fathers with fathers.

so you dont equate a STEP FATHER with being a FATHER..really... what about being a MALE?

What?

A step father is not a father, and all fathers and stepfathers are male. I don't see the potential for confusion here.

then you do have a problem dont you.....imagine yourself as a little 4 year old...living with a male...how would you see him.... as your step father or your father..

What?

If "living with a male' is all youve got to go on, he might even be my brother. What the hell are you on about?

ok I am moving on from this troll I have just woken up you are not interested in this topic pizzzzzzzzzzzzz off.

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cods

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Re: The trend continues - mama's new boyfriend ..
Reply #234 - Nov 6^th, 2015 at 4:42pm

mothra wrote on Nov 6^th, 2015 at 3:56pm:

Kamal wrote on Nov 6^th, 2015 at 3:54pm:

mothra wrote on Nov 6^th, 2015 at 3:50pm:

Kamal wrote on Nov 6^th, 2015 at 3:48pm:

Or maybe you could look it up yourself, now there's a thought. Then again old girl google is complicated for some, no?

Well neither Grappler nor myself have been able to find anything to substantiate that at all.

I thought Honky might, seeing as he is the one making the claim.

He doesn't have to if he doesn't care whether you believe him or not.

Just like grapper doesn't have to substantiate his fairy tales on here regarding him being a secret agent man, no?

Well then, i shall just dismiss it out of hand.

Do you think that is what Honky intends me to do with his statement on a debating forum?

ignore mothra he is trying to wreck the thread .. hes even quoting American Canadian stats I mean come on...this isnt what the thread is about...

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cods

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Re: The trend continues - mama's new boyfriend ..
Reply #235 - Nov 6^th, 2015 at 4:47pm

Quote:

Hey Honky, I was busy here reading up on another case study (UK based).

It appears that step dads are indeed more likely to abuse kids compared to genetic dads.

As we live in a world where divorce and blended families are the new norm it's impt for the sake of our children and their safety that we take heed and exhibit great care in choosing a new partner.

I dont really know what difference it makes.. they are both CARERS or meant to be...this has gone from bad single mothers... to bad boyfrie3nds... to females worse than males.... to males worse than females... now male v male...

what about the children...what are we changing so they get protection.. FROM ANYONE?..

all I know is.. there is at least ONE CHILD dead at the end of all this toing and froing.

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mothra

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Re: The trend continues - mama's new boyfriend ..
Reply #236 - Nov 6^th, 2015 at 5:02pm

cods wrote on Nov 6^th, 2015 at 4:47pm:

Quote:

Hey Honky, I was busy here reading up on another case study (UK based).

It appears that step dads are indeed more likely to abuse kids compared to genetic dads.

As we live in a world where divorce and blended families are the new norm it's impt for the sake of our children and their safety that we take heed and exhibit great care in choosing a new partner.

I dont really know what difference it makes.. they are both CARERS or meant to be...this has gone from bad single mothers... to bad boyfrie3nds... to females worse than males.... to males worse than females... now male v male...

what about the children...what are we changing so they get protection.. FROM ANYONE?..

all I know is.. there is at least ONE CHILD dead at the end of all this toing and froing.

I don't know what we can do aside from understand the risk factors and publicise the findings. Hopefully that, in time, will encourage people to be more vigilant, more self-aware, more careful. Maybe we can get better with early intervention but those agencies are already going under.

In this sad case it doesn't read like the poor little darling had their mum in their corner much either. Looks like there were signs not all was well there. Who can do anything though? Family is about the only possible avenue for early intervention. And close friends. So many people live without family and friends.

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Redmond Neck

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Re: The trend continues - mama's new boyfriend ..
Reply #237 - Nov 6^th, 2015 at 5:09pm

Lisa Jones wrote on Nov 6^th, 2015 at 4:04pm:

Hey Honky, I was busy here reading up on another case study (UK based).

It appears that step dads are indeed more likely to abuse kids compared to genetic dads.

As we live in a world where divorce and blended families are the new norm it's impt for the sake of our children and their safety that we take heed and exhibit great care in choosing a new partner

Very true.

I think some women cant stand not having a partner and rush into allowing the new boyfriend into the home.

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« Last Edit: Nov 6^th, 2015 at 5:18pm by Redmond Neck »

BAN ALL THESE ABO SITES RECOGNITIONS.

ALL AUSTRALIA IS FOR ALL AUSTRALIANS!

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cods

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Re: The trend continues - mama's new boyfriend ..
Reply #238 - Nov 6^th, 2015 at 5:56pm

mothra wrote on Nov 6^th, 2015 at 5:02pm:

cods wrote on Nov 6^th, 2015 at 4:47pm:

Quote:

Hey Honky, I was busy here reading up on another case study (UK based).

It appears that step dads are indeed more likely to abuse kids compared to genetic dads.

As we live in a world where divorce and blended families are the new norm it's impt for the sake of our children and their safety that we take heed and exhibit great care in choosing a new partner.

I dont really know what difference it makes.. they are both CARERS or meant to be...this has gone from bad single mothers... to bad boyfrie3nds... to females worse than males.... to males worse than females... now male v male...

what about the children...what are we changing so they get protection.. FROM ANYONE?..

all I know is.. there is at least ONE CHILD dead at the end of all this toing and froing.

I don't know what we can do aside from understand the risk factors and publicise the findings. Hopefully that, in time, will encourage people to be more vigilant, more self-aware, more careful. Maybe we can get better with early intervention but those agencies are already going under.

In this sad case it doesn't read like the poor little darling had their mum in their corner much either. Looks like there were signs not all was well there. Who can do anything though? Family is about the only possible avenue for early intervention. And close friends. So many people live without family and friends.

when therse appalling case come to court I think that where the family should ,be asked a few questions.. to be honest...someone knew and saw something that wasnt right...now we ask teachers and doctors to speak up.. in fact I believe its now in the law they have to report anything...

its terrible but its needed... now why are family exonerated ???... there is NO EXCUSE for any of us... a women was Held up for ridicule if you like because she smacked her child in public...she was reported and charged....I am not sure I agree with the publicity she got.. but she did get it...

now murder seems to be a whole different ball game...I know we are ashamed of our stats.. and so we should be...as a society we have everything... yet still we have all this aggression.....never have enough will we..

well i am all for family members that live close by they must have some conversations with the child at least....being questioned as to why they let it get this far....

I have always said if it was my grandchild he/she would not be living in the home with someone I considered to be a danger....we have heard it so often in case after case where the child had been brutalised..babies with broken bones... tell me this wouldnt that baby cry an awful lot.?????...I dont know I hate to see someone say there is nothing we can do

it needs more attention...the way our laws are there seems to be a silence created over these cases...and the sympathy is all on the perps....I dont get it...to see some of the sentences is mind blowing...they should get nothing less than 20 years...a child cannot defend itself it cannot speak up..it relies on adults to do that for them.

some people are sick I realise that the women that killed the 8 children yes I get that....sad... in hindsight could they have seen something bad coming.?? we will never know will we.. because of the secrets.. the hushing up...

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cods

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Re: The trend continues - mama's new boyfriend ..
Reply #239 - Nov 6^th, 2015 at 6:03pm

Redmond Neck wrote on Nov 6^th, 2015 at 5:09pm:

Lisa Jones wrote on Nov 6^th, 2015 at 4:04pm:

Hey Honky, I was busy here reading up on another case study (UK based).

It appears that step dads are indeed more likely to abuse kids compared to genetic dads.

As we live in a world where divorce and blended families are the new norm it's impt for the sake of our children and their safety that we take heed and exhibit great care in choosing a new partner

Very true.

I think some women cant stand not having a partner and rush into allowing the new boyfriend into the home.

nothing surer Red nothing surer....my granddaughter is a classic...two children two fathers...the first wasnt even a father just a doner...however the second is still around but its not good...she said to me once.. thats it I am never going to have another man in my life...lolol...we both laughed. what else can you do...its a fact women think these men will take care of them and care about them.. if they have faults this women has such power she will change them... of course.

the man on the other hand is a user he picks on single mums usually with a roof over their heads. and moves in .. alls good fill the fridge up with beer dont worry about milk or paying the bills....

yes Red the males are not exempt from this...and they have usually had one bad relationship after another.....

as I said she has a child by another man.. when it was just the 3 of them he talked all the time about the boy being his son.. he would adopt him if the real dad let him .. he was his.. then of course his own child came along.. now its all about her the little boy [5] kind of battles for attention...I dont like it..but he isnt violent.....so its up to her if she sticks with him.. hes a gambler..and controlling...I am waiting for the sh!t to hit the fan

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