This was brilliant. A really smart presentation of this subject.

It's rare, but it is possible.

Without a doubt, IS opposes everything the West has fought for and won. IS actually stones women to death for adultery, and it makes the father throw the first stone. As Harris argues, there is nothing good in a society like this. It doesn't value happiness or human life.

In IS, armed teenagers patrol the streets to ensure women have no visible flesh - even their faces. Saudi Arabia bans women from driving. Theft is punished by amputating hands.

I'm not sure how people who hold such views should be engaged, but it would seem that we now have values to defend.

This is what is wrong with religious thinking, it can be used to justify virtually any behaviour

Kytro wrote on Oct 29^th, 2015 at 3:45pm:


They did make that point. I'd say it's not religious thinking, but dogmatic thinking.

Look at what posters here can justify without much religious belief at all:

Ban them.
Cesterete them.
Burn them.
Kill them.
Carpetbomb them.
Nuke them.

Religious or spiritual thinking teaches the exact opposite - with no qualifications:

Love them.
Help them.
Give to them.
Forgive them.

Karnal wrote on Oct 29^th, 2015 at 3:46pm:


However, outside influence is no help either to majority of the women either as we have learned from the past.  The whole region is just going to plunge into lawlessness and warlord factions.  And unfortunately, at these times, women would have even less rights.

Karnal wrote on Oct 29^th, 2015 at 3:53pm:


What religious or spiritual teaching doesn't say is
Let them come in and take over

Soren wrote on Oct 29^th, 2015 at 5:12pm:


Luke 10:25-37

25On one occasion an expert in the law stood up to test Jesus. “Teacher,” he asked, “what must I do to inherit eternal life?”

26“What is written in the Law?” he replied. “How do you read it?”

27He answered: ” ‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind’; and, ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.'”

28“You have answered correctly,” Jesus replied. “Do this and you will live.”

29But he wanted to justify himself, so he asked Jesus, “And who is my neighbor?”

30In reply Jesus said: “A man was going down from Jerusalem to Jericho, when he fell into the hands of robbers. They stripped him of his clothes, beat him and went away, leaving him half dead. 31A priest happened to be going down the same road, and when he saw the man, he passed by on the other side. 32So too, a Levite, when he came to the place and saw him, passed by on the other side. 33But a Samaritan, as he traveled, came where the man was; and when he saw him, he took pity on him. 34He went to him and bandaged his wounds, pouring on oil and wine. Then he put the man on his own donkey, took him to an inn and took care of him. 35The next day he took out two silver coins and gave them to the innkeeper. ‘Look after him,’ he said, ‘and when I return, I will reimburse you for any extra expense you may have.’

36“Which of these three do you think was a neighbor to the man who fell into the hands of robbers?”

37The expert in the law replied, “The one who had mercy on him.”
Jesus told him, “Go and do likewise.”

Yes, Tickle, but you’ll find Sore End doesn’t think Jesus really meant all that. It’s just a standard to aspire to, or in this case don’t.

In practice, Sore End wants us to be just like ISIS, but without the beards. Religion needs to be ignored when it comes to all the nice parts (the hard parts). It’s real value is enshrining lots of laws, bans and punishments.

If you don’t obey those laws,, no problem, try harder next time. If someone else doesn’t obey them, they need to be banned, killed, and carpetbombed.

We’ve had this discussion many times. It is a jolly world, no?