Australian Politics Forum - In the case of deletings

He Man

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Re: In the case of deletings
Reply #15 - Oct 31^st, 2015 at 4:57pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Oct 31^st, 2015 at 4:54pm:

He Man wrote on Oct 31^st, 2015 at 4:15pm:

I have searched and there is nothing until 60 years after this man was supposed to have even existed then died.

Right, so what you mean is there is no contemporary surviving evidence that he existed.

That is not the same as saying there is no evidence.

And by the way, the sources mentioning him begin from 2 and a half years after his death - not 60.

No I meant no evidence when I posted it. What is this so called evidence that mohammed was a prophet and muslims and islam and the qu'ran existed 2.5 years after his death ?

I listed those specifically as they are also needed to identify any man with that name as the one you revere as the perfect example of a muslim. We all know mohammed was a common name. Just before we go there.

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polite_gandalf

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Re: In the case of deletings
Reply #16 - Oct 31^st, 2015 at 5:05pm

He Man wrote on Oct 31^st, 2015 at 4:57pm:

No I meant no evidence when I posted it. What is this so called evidence that mohammed was a prophet

whoa, wait there - why are you suddenly asking about whether he was a prophet? You originally disputed his existence per se. Nothing to do with whether or not he was a prophet.

So it seems to me that you would agree with a historical narrative that states the first muslims were led by a vicious warmonger named Muhammad who cynically exploited the Abrahamic teachings to create a new death cult for his own political ambitions - right?

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
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Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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He Man

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Re: In the case of deletings
Reply #17 - Oct 31^st, 2015 at 5:08pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Oct 31^st, 2015 at 5:05pm:

He Man wrote on Oct 31^st, 2015 at 4:57pm:

No I meant no evidence when I posted it. What is this so called evidence that mohammed was a prophet

whoa, wait there - why are you suddenly about whether he was a prophet? You originally disputed his existence per se. Nothing to do with whether or not he was a prophet.

So it seems to me that you would agree with a historical narrative that states the first muslims were led by a vicious warmonger named Muhammad who cynically exploited the Abrahamic teachings to create a new death cult for his own political ambitions - right?

Yeah lets drop the prophet part we both know he wasn't , so whats your evidence 2.5 years after he lived his whole life with no evidence of anyone seeing him ?

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He Man Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 1159 Gender:	Re: In the case of deletings Reply #18 - Oct 31^st, 2015 at 5:34pm Still waiting - it can't be this hard surely.
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polite_gandalf

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Re: In the case of deletings
Reply #19 - Oct 31^st, 2015 at 5:41pm

He Man wrote on Oct 31^st, 2015 at 5:08pm:

Yeah lets drop the prophet part we both know he wasn't

Good idea, since I never mentioned it. I wonder why you suddenly brought it up? Just so you could make a strawman out of it?

Do you now concede that there is evidence Islam was founded by an historical figure called Muhammad? If so, whatever were you disputing in the first place?

By the way, the earliest mention of Muhammad was in a manuscript dated around 637 (ok, so 5 years after his death) detailing the arab conquest of Syria. But of course that would have been almost the first thing you found if you actually did search this topic like you claimed. Oh, and in case you didn't know, this is what we call "evidence".

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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He Man

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Re: In the case of deletings
Reply #20 - Oct 31^st, 2015 at 5:45pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Oct 31^st, 2015 at 5:41pm:

He Man wrote on Oct 31^st, 2015 at 5:08pm:

Yeah lets drop the prophet part we both know he wasn't

Good idea, since I never mentioned it. I wonder why you suddenly brought it up? Just so you could make a strawman out of it?

Do you now concede that there is evidence Islam was founded by an historical figure called Muhammad? If so, whatever were you disputing in the first place?

By the way, the earliest mention of Muhammad was in a manuscript dated around 637 (ok, so 5 years after his death) detailing the arab conquest of Syria. But of course that would have been almost the first thing you found if you actually did search this topic like you claimed. Oh, and in case you didn't know, this is what we call "evidence".

Actually it is what we call an internet post nothing more anyone can type that. Where is the evidence or reference to it because as of this post there is still no evidence at all that mohammed remotely existed.

PS. So much for the 2.5 years after his death now we have stretch it another 2.5 years. I have a feeling this will be stretched even further by the time you are finished.

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He Man Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 1159 Gender:	Re: In the case of deletings Reply #21 - Oct 31^st, 2015 at 5:56pm I found it hilarious you scraped up a non muslim source to try and make out it was evidence. And guess what folks, mohammed was not mentioned in this manuscript at all. " It is worthwhile cautioning that the condition of the text is fragmentary and many of the readings unclear or disputable." Got anything else ?
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polite_gandalf

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Re: In the case of deletings
Reply #22 - Oct 31^st, 2015 at 6:01pm

Hmmm interesting - I'm even more curious than ever to know what He Man understands "evidence" to mean - since a reference from wikipedia with citation apparently doesn't count.

Quote:

There is a reference recording the Arab conquest of Syria, that mentions Muhammed. This much faded note is preserved on folio 1 of BL Add. 14,461, a codex containing the Gospel according to Matthew and the Gospel according to Mark. This note appears to have been penned soon after the battle of Gabitha (636 CE) at which the Arabs inflicted crushing defeat of the Byzantines. Wright was first to draw the attention to the fragment and suggested that "it seems to be a nearly contemporary notice"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historicity_of_Muhammad#Non-Muslim_sources

Is there literally anything that would count as historical evidence in your book He Man? I'm dying to know. How would a humble internet surfer lying on his couch obtain historical evidence that would be acceptable to you?

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
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Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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polite_gandalf

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Re: In the case of deletings
Reply #23 - Oct 31^st, 2015 at 6:04pm

He Man wrote on Oct 31^st, 2015 at 5:56pm:

And guess what folks, mohammed was not mentioned in this manuscript at all.

Quote:

many villages were ruined with killing by [the Arabs of] Mụhammad

He Man wrote on Oct 31^st, 2015 at 5:56pm:

Got anything else ?

So what you are saying is not that there is "no evidence" - but rather there is no good evidence?

I'm dying to know what you define as "evidence". Please enlighten me He Man.

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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He Man

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Re: In the case of deletings
Reply #24 - Oct 31^st, 2015 at 6:12pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Oct 31^st, 2015 at 6:04pm:

He Man wrote on Oct 31^st, 2015 at 5:56pm:

And guess what folks, mohammed was not mentioned in this manuscript at all.

Quote:

many villages were ruined with killing by [the Arabs of] Mụhammad

He Man wrote on Oct 31^st, 2015 at 5:56pm:

Got anything else ?

So what you are saying is not that there is "no evidence" - but rather there is no good evidence?

I'm dying to know what you define as "evidence". Please enlighten me He Man.

You know darn well what definitive evidence is and you have nothing.

I'm dying to know when you can provide definitive evidence mohammed the first muslim even existed.

Your link proves nothing. How did you think I found out your silly evidence quote in the first place. You certainly wouldn't know.

As a muslim, well one with your own version of islam but lets call you a muslim. Aren't you embarrassed no one else saw the guy called mohammed head of islam ?

Not even another country ?

No one even documented a muslim ?

Aren't you curious as to why ?

Christians and Jesus Christ are documented in this manner as would be expected yet mohammed is not until 60 YEARS after his death.

Funny that.

Do you have anything of any REAL Substance other than silly responses ?

When you do post it here and I'll take a look until then obviously its an utter waste of my time playing silly billies pussy footing around with your nonsensical replies and lack of knowledge.

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polite_gandalf Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 20027 Canberra Gender:	Re: In the case of deletings Reply #25 - Oct 31^st, 2015 at 6:17pm He Man, I can't post evidence that will satisfy you if I don't know what you consider to be satisfactory evidence now can I? evidence or the latest version "definitive" evidence - either way, I need to know what you would consider acceptable. Can you do that for me big man?
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He Man Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 1159 Gender:	Re: In the case of deletings Reply #26 - Oct 31^st, 2015 at 6:32pm Still nothing Keep searching surely it cannot be this hard...
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polite_gandalf

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Re: In the case of deletings
Reply #27 - Oct 31^st, 2015 at 6:46pm

He Man wrote on Oct 31^st, 2015 at 6:12pm:

As a muslim, well one with your own version of islam but lets call you a muslim. Aren't you embarrassed no one else saw the guy called mohammed head of islam ?

Not even another country ?

No one even documented a muslim ?

Aren't you curious as to why ?

Christians and Jesus Christ are documented in this manner as would be expected yet mohammed is not until 60 YEARS after his death.

Oh dear me.

Firstly, Muhammad lived in an oral tradition, little was ever written down. But the oral accounts of him (passed down and later written as the ahadith) were immense. Secondly, the muslims never entered another "country" (as in non-arab lands) during his life time, so its not surprising no one from these places wrote about him. And lastly, I don't believe there is a single contemporary source for Jesus either.

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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He Man

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Re: In the case of deletings
Reply #28 - Oct 31^st, 2015 at 6:49pm

Hilarious, everyone including other countries all orally orated just for that time period. ROFL bloody hilarious.

Got anything at all seriously ?

I mean bloody hell if you have to go to those hysterical lengths to justify your so called prophets existence there is nothing anyone can say to you to help remove the blinkers.

Lets move on the the quran, it was around in mohammeds day, or so the legend has it.

Got anything other than 60 years after his so called death about the qu'ran ?

Surely there is something, anything at all ?

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polite_gandalf

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Re: In the case of deletings
Reply #29 - Oct 31^st, 2015 at 6:52pm

He Man wrote on Oct 31^st, 2015 at 6:32pm:

Still nothing Roll Eyes

Keep searching surely it cannot be this hard...

Can you at least explain how a reference to the Syrian Gospel codex is not evidence? Are you saying this fragment doesn't really exist or that the fragment is somehow not evidence?

What counts as acceptable "verifiable" evidence in your view? Its not a difficult question surely.

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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