Australian Politics Forum - Calling For A Doubling Of Medicare Levy

John Smith Gold Member Online Australian Politics Posts: 74978 Gender:	Re: Calling For A Doubling Of Medicare Levy Reply #30 - Nov 2^nd, 2015 at 2:22pm Kytro wrote on Nov 2^nd, 2015 at 1:08pm: Why should the levy be changed? What is the point of specific funding of Medicare in this manner as opposed to via general taxation. medicare finding has to be spent on health, doesn't it?
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crocodile

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Re: Calling For A Doubling Of Medicare Levy
Reply #31 - Nov 2^nd, 2015 at 4:45pm

John Smith wrote on Nov 2^nd, 2015 at 2:22pm:

Kytro wrote on Nov 2^nd, 2015 at 1:08pm:

Why should the levy be changed? What is the point of specific funding of Medicare in this manner as opposed to via general taxation.

medicare finding has to be spent on health, doesn't it?

No, they can do what they like with it.

Quote:

Australian Constitution - Section 81 - Consolidated Revenue Fund

All revenues or moneys raised or received by the Executive Government of the Commonwealth shall form one Consolidated Revenue Fund, to be appropriated for the purposes of the Commonwealth in the manner and subject to the charges and liabilities imposed by this Constitution.

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Very funny Scotty, now beam down my clothes.

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John Smith Gold Member Online Australian Politics Posts: 74978 Gender:	Re: Calling For A Doubling Of Medicare Levy Reply #32 - Nov 2^nd, 2015 at 4:47pm crocodile wrote on Nov 2^nd, 2015 at 4:45pm: No, they can do what they like with it. then why give it a different label? they should just be honest about the tax rate and be done with it.
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Baronvonrort Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 18643 Gender:	Re: Calling For A Doubling Of Medicare Levy Reply #33 - Nov 2^nd, 2015 at 4:48pm John Smith wrote on Nov 2^nd, 2015 at 2:22pm: medicare finding has to be spent on health, doesn't it? Howard was able to increase the levy to buy back 640,000 guns, it's not unprecedented for medicare money to be wasted.
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crocodile

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Re: Calling For A Doubling Of Medicare Levy
Reply #34 - Nov 2^nd, 2015 at 4:52pm

John Smith wrote on Nov 2^nd, 2015 at 4:47pm:

crocodile wrote on Nov 2^nd, 2015 at 4:45pm:

No, they can do what they like with it.

then why give it a different label? they should just be honest about the tax rate and be done with it.

Best ask the spivs, urgers and horse thieves that perambulate around the grounds of parliament house.

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Very funny Scotty, now beam down my clothes.

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mariacostel

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Re: Calling For A Doubling Of Medicare Levy
Reply #35 - Nov 2^nd, 2015 at 5:53pm

crocodile wrote on Nov 2^nd, 2015 at 9:33am:

mariacostel wrote on Nov 2^nd, 2015 at 8:36am:

crocodile wrote on Nov 2^nd, 2015 at 7:50am:

Ex Dame Pansi wrote on Nov 2^nd, 2015 at 7:08am:

Redmond Neck wrote on Nov 2^nd, 2015 at 6:53am:

Halve the private health refund and use that income on Medicare

Wouldn't people pull out of private cover?

It would hardly be worth it for them and that would put a strain on an already burdened public health system.

Absolutely brilliant as a vote buying carrot while the punters think they're getting something for nothing.

Sometimes you come across as a theorist with zero practical experience. This is a classic example of that. Health Fees DROP????

Try again.

If they start losing customers the fees will come down quick smart. It's only mandated legislation that keeps them high. The good ol' supply and demand situation works every time except when legislators, monopolies and rent seekers get in the way and distort the market.

I would love to think it was that simple and so would the government and health funds and everybody else. Of course you will be unable to show a single example of that working because it never has. Your economics knowledge is undeniably substantial but entirely theoretical. I sense not a single real-world modification of any of your ideas.

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John Smith Gold Member Online Australian Politics Posts: 74978 Gender:	Re: Calling For A Doubling Of Medicare Levy Reply #36 - Nov 2^nd, 2015 at 6:01pm crocodile wrote on Nov 2^nd, 2015 at 4:52pm: Best ask the spivs, urgers and horse thieves that perambulate around the grounds of parliament house. gumpy .... over to you!
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Dnarever

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Re: Calling For A Doubling Of Medicare Levy
Reply #37 - Nov 2^nd, 2015 at 6:03pm

Quote:

NSW opposition health spokesman Walt Secord is calling for a doubling of the Medicare levy to help cover the multibillion dollar shortfall in health funding faced by NSW under cuts to Commonwealth payments in the federal government's 2014 budget.

Both the increase to the GST and now this support to double the Medicare levy are only the result of the federal Liberal governments budget cuts.

The better solution is to force the feds to give the money back and to stop them from forcing the states into asking for tax increases to cover up for federal government nastiness and incompetence.

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mariacostel

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Re: Calling For A Doubling Of Medicare Levy
Reply #38 - Nov 2^nd, 2015 at 7:31pm

Dnarever wrote on Nov 2^nd, 2015 at 6:03pm:

Quote:

NSW opposition health spokesman Walt Secord is calling for a doubling of the Medicare levy to help cover the multibillion dollar shortfall in health funding faced by NSW under cuts to Commonwealth payments in the federal government's 2014 budget.

Both the increase to the GST and now this support to double the Medicare levy are only the result of the federal Liberal governments budget cuts.

The better solution is to force the feds to give the money back and to stop them from forcing the states into asking for tax increases to cover up for federal government nastiness and incompetence.

Deficit? Debt? Heard of those? Your leftly-losers gave us that and a sinking economy to make fixing it harder along with a senate that insists on being part of the problem.

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Kat

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Re: Calling For A Doubling Of Medicare Levy
Reply #39 - Nov 2^nd, 2015 at 7:35pm

mariacostel wrote on Nov 2^nd, 2015 at 7:31pm:

Dnarever wrote on Nov 2^nd, 2015 at 6:03pm:

Quote:

NSW opposition health spokesman Walt Secord is calling for a doubling of the Medicare levy to help cover the multibillion dollar shortfall in health funding faced by NSW under cuts to Commonwealth payments in the federal government's 2014 budget.

Both the increase to the GST and now this support to double the Medicare levy are only the result of the federal Liberal governments budget cuts.

The better solution is to force the feds to give the money back and to stop them from forcing the states into asking for tax increases to cover up for federal government nastiness and incompetence.

Deficit? Debt? Heard of those? Your leftly-losers gave us that and a sinking economy to make fixing it harder along with a senate that insists on being part of the problem.

No. We didn't.

If you believe that, it only reinforces your ignorance and/or stupidity.

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crocodile

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Re: Calling For A Doubling Of Medicare Levy
Reply #40 - Nov 2^nd, 2015 at 9:17pm

mariacostel wrote on Nov 2^nd, 2015 at 5:53pm:

crocodile wrote on Nov 2^nd, 2015 at 9:33am:

mariacostel wrote on Nov 2^nd, 2015 at 8:36am:

crocodile wrote on Nov 2^nd, 2015 at 7:50am:

Ex Dame Pansi wrote on Nov 2^nd, 2015 at 7:08am:

Redmond Neck wrote on Nov 2^nd, 2015 at 6:53am:

Halve the private health refund and use that income on Medicare

Wouldn't people pull out of private cover?

It would hardly be worth it for them and that would put a strain on an already burdened public health system.

Absolutely brilliant as a vote buying carrot while the punters think they're getting something for nothing.

Sometimes you come across as a theorist with zero practical experience. This is a classic example of that. Health Fees DROP????

Try again.

If they start losing customers the fees will come down quick smart. It's only mandated legislation that keeps them high. The good ol' supply and demand situation works every time except when legislators, monopolies and rent seekers get in the way and distort the market.

I would love to think it was that simple and so would the government and health funds and everybody else. Of course you will be unable to show a single example of that working because it never has. Your economics knowledge is undeniably substantial but entirely theoretical. I sense not a single real-world modification of any of your ideas.

Not so sure about the substantial bit. It may appear theoretical sometimes. Mostly that is deliberate in order to avoid the relativism argument. Economic theories aren't generally hypothesised to form some predictive outcome. Instead they are generally formed after collecting past data, analysing and modelling it and then looking for explanations. The theory is based on past events so if something turns up that has a new set of parameters the theories aren't of much help.

The case of falling demand and it's effect on retail prices is already well understood. However, markets can be skewed by the actions that have been stated. In the case of private health, with the removal of subsidies it is given that demand will drop. Retailers have little choice but to reduce entry costs in a market without other interventions.

Of course there are possible interventions that may prop up the cost such as concerted effort and bullying tactics from the medical professional bodies. This form of rent seeking is not new as demonstrated by the AMA 30 odd years ago when Brendan Nelson still had an earing.

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Very funny Scotty, now beam down my clothes.

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crocodile

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Re: Calling For A Doubling Of Medicare Levy
Reply #41 - Nov 2^nd, 2015 at 9:34pm

mariacostel wrote on Nov 2^nd, 2015 at 7:31pm:

Dnarever wrote on Nov 2^nd, 2015 at 6:03pm:

Quote:

NSW opposition health spokesman Walt Secord is calling for a doubling of the Medicare levy to help cover the multibillion dollar shortfall in health funding faced by NSW under cuts to Commonwealth payments in the federal government's 2014 budget.

Both the increase to the GST and now this support to double the Medicare levy are only the result of the federal Liberal governments budget cuts.

The better solution is to force the feds to give the money back and to stop them from forcing the states into asking for tax increases to cover up for federal government nastiness and incompetence.

Deficit? Debt? Heard of those? Your leftly-losers gave us that and a sinking economy to make fixing it harder along with a senate that insists on being part of the problem.

In reality it is all brinkmanship. They really don't matter as much as our dear leaders carry on about. Every surplus budget creates dollar for dollar deficits on the private side of the ledger anyway.

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Very funny Scotty, now beam down my clothes.

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mariacostel

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Re: Calling For A Doubling Of Medicare Levy
Reply #42 - Nov 3^rd, 2015 at 7:59am

crocodile wrote on Nov 2^nd, 2015 at 9:17pm:

mariacostel wrote on Nov 2^nd, 2015 at 5:53pm:

crocodile wrote on Nov 2^nd, 2015 at 9:33am:

mariacostel wrote on Nov 2^nd, 2015 at 8:36am:

crocodile wrote on Nov 2^nd, 2015 at 7:50am:

Ex Dame Pansi wrote on Nov 2^nd, 2015 at 7:08am:

Redmond Neck wrote on Nov 2^nd, 2015 at 6:53am:

Halve the private health refund and use that income on Medicare

Wouldn't people pull out of private cover?

It would hardly be worth it for them and that would put a strain on an already burdened public health system.

Absolutely brilliant as a vote buying carrot while the punters think they're getting something for nothing.

Sometimes you come across as a theorist with zero practical experience. This is a classic example of that. Health Fees DROP????

Try again.

If they start losing customers the fees will come down quick smart. It's only mandated legislation that keeps them high. The good ol' supply and demand situation works every time except when legislators, monopolies and rent seekers get in the way and distort the market.

I would love to think it was that simple and so would the government and health funds and everybody else. Of course you will be unable to show a single example of that working because it never has. Your economics knowledge is undeniably substantial but entirely theoretical. I sense not a single real-world modification of any of your ideas.

Not so sure about the substantial bit. It may appear theoretical sometimes. Mostly that is deliberate in order to avoid the relativism argument. Economic theories aren't generally hypothesised to form some predictive outcome. Instead they are generally formed after collecting past data, analysing and modelling it and then looking for explanations. The theory is based on past events so if something turns up that has a new set of parameters the theories aren't of much help.

The case of falling demand and it's effect on retail prices is already well understood. However, markets can be skewed by the actions that have been stated. In the case of private health, with the removal of subsidies it is given that demand will drop. Retailers have little choice but to reduce entry costs in a market without other interventions.

Of course there are possible interventions that may prop up the cost such as concerted effort and bullying tactics from the medical professional bodies. This form of rent seeking is not new as demonstrated by the AMA 30 odd years ago when Brendan Nelson still had an earing.

Even this reply is almost entirely theoretical. Healthcare costs would NOT drop as you say they would. If that were the case don't you think the millions of economists and politicians struggling with rapidly rising health costs might have tried this out?

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mariacostel

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Re: Calling For A Doubling Of Medicare Levy
Reply #43 - Nov 3^rd, 2015 at 8:01am

crocodile wrote on Nov 2^nd, 2015 at 9:34pm:

mariacostel wrote on Nov 2^nd, 2015 at 7:31pm:

Dnarever wrote on Nov 2^nd, 2015 at 6:03pm:

Quote:

NSW opposition health spokesman Walt Secord is calling for a doubling of the Medicare levy to help cover the multibillion dollar shortfall in health funding faced by NSW under cuts to Commonwealth payments in the federal government's 2014 budget.

Both the increase to the GST and now this support to double the Medicare levy are only the result of the federal Liberal governments budget cuts.

The better solution is to force the feds to give the money back and to stop them from forcing the states into asking for tax increases to cover up for federal government nastiness and incompetence.

Deficit? Debt? Heard of those? Your leftly-losers gave us that and a sinking economy to make fixing it harder along with a senate that insists on being part of the problem.

In reality it is all brinkmanship. They really don't matter as much as our dear leaders carry on about. Every surplus budget creates dollar for dollar deficits on the private side of the ledger anyway.

Good old theory once again. Deficits don't matter, surpluses don't matter. Your real-life experience appears to be deeply lacking.

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crocodile

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Re: Calling For A Doubling Of Medicare Levy
Reply #44 - Nov 3^rd, 2015 at 8:16am

mariacostel wrote on Nov 3^rd, 2015 at 7:59am: