Australian Politics Forum - Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse.

Phemanderac Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 3507 Gender:	Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Reply #165 - Nov 4^th, 2015 at 3:19pm The climate debate is a bit of religion (on both sides), however, the science is different to that.
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mariacostel

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Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse.
Reply #166 - Nov 4^th, 2015 at 4:25pm

Sir lastnail wrote on Nov 4^th, 2015 at 3:06pm:

mariacostel wrote on Nov 4^th, 2015 at 3:01pm:

Stratos wrote on Nov 4^th, 2015 at 12:54pm:

Maria, I know you are caught up in a climate debate, but I was wondering if you are going to respond to my previous post about why the gospels are not primary sources?

If you are interested in how the gospels came to be, I recommend looking yourself into the Gospel of Mark (anonymously written), which is generally accepted to have had sections taken from it when the gospels of Luke and Matthew were written. As mentioned, the author of Luke does not claim to be any kind of eyewitness either, but having learnt from Paul.

John's author was given a title ("the Disciple whom Jesus loved"), but no specific name, and there are many differing ideas on who actually this may be referring to.

So, in summary.

Mark (anonymous)
Matthew (derived from Mark, anonymously written, no claim to being an eyewitness account)
Luke (no claim to be a primary source in the first place)
John (title given, no name, many differing theories on authorship)

So I feel I have to ask again, who do you think wrote these books, and why do you believe they are eyewitness accounts, despite the fact the books themselves disagree with you? You mentioned there were other accounts too I believe, who are they?

Look, to be honest I don't have a great desire to do this debate with you because I've heard it all before and I know how it ends up. Despite the Gospels being accepted a generally reliable records, you will constantly claim they are not. Matthew was a disciple. He was there. He was an eye-witness. The Apostle Peter likewise was an eye-witness and in his writings (letters from peter) confirms the record and in places quotes from it. And on we go. The crux of the problem is that you will always find a reason to reject it and largely for bogus or subjective reasons, not rational ones.

I will state right now that there is no chance you could prove the historical existence of Julius Caesar using the methodology you employ for Jesus. I will simply cast aspersions on the accuracy of every claim you make including the non-existence of any eye-witness accounts.

The difference between the historical claims of Caesar and Christ is that only one made supernatural claims and that alone is why you reject the entire historical record. Because you reject any supernatural or religious commentary you feel you are right to therefore reject everything. It is bad scholarship and the reason why most historians do not dispute the historical Jesus.

Now show us a Jesus coin Wink

http://www.thehistoryblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/06/Nero-aureus.jpg

Show us a plato coin. Show us an alexander the Great coin. And while you are at it, show us an Einstein coin.

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mariacostel

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Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse.
Reply #167 - Nov 4^th, 2015 at 4:27pm

Phemanderac wrote on Nov 4^th, 2015 at 3:07pm:

mariacostel wrote on Nov 4^th, 2015 at 7:06am:

Phemanderac wrote on Nov 4^th, 2015 at 6:48am:

mariacostel wrote on Nov 4^th, 2015 at 6:35am:

By the way, Plato is a myth.

Well the evidence of his existence is as valid as that of JC or Mo at least.

Actually, the evidence for plato is several orders of magnitude LESS than for Jesus. You can't have it both ways.

No it isn't, that's the point. The overall belief about both is based on consensus by academics due to the lack of hard evidence.

Now, that said, consensus is apparently a contentious issue. After all the comments about consensus in the context of the climate change argument (it is nothing like a debate after all), as such, it is you who can't have it both ways.

That is completely wrong! Historians don't decide on the veracity of historical claims based on consensus. They weight the evidence (which exists by the way) and come to conclusions. They have concluded that Jesus (and Plato) both existed largely in the manner in which they have been described.

The evidence speaks.

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mariacostel

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Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse.
Reply #168 - Nov 4^th, 2015 at 4:31pm

Phemanderac wrote on Nov 4^th, 2015 at 3:19pm:

mariacostel wrote on Nov 4^th, 2015 at 7:08am:

Phemanderac wrote on Nov 4^th, 2015 at 6:52am:

Religious teaching is child abuse, well, at least that is the stated opinion of one person...

Others may agree with this too.

The same person said though that people beliefs should be respected - he stated his beliefs, they might appear disrespectful, however, he is not making threats, censoring, shutting down or berating believers, simply putting his point of view... Isn't that his right?

I think organised religion is our biggest failing as a sentient species - if people chose to follow their myth so be it. I also have this idea that live and let live is not a bad philosophy.

And yet, religion is what has founded nations, schools, health, art and music. Today, the majority of social work is done by the Church, especially in foreign countries.

No it isn't, it was not because of religion that Australia was founded, certainly organised religion was along for the ride, but not the driver.

Nations, schools, health, art and music occur regardless of organised religion, in fact, often times throughout history in spite of it.

I think you present a very myopic view to be blunt.

As to the "social work" how that actually works is that Organised Religious groups get funded, however, a significant share of the actual face to face workload is done by people of no specific religious affiliation, as it should be.

Your clear lack of acknowledgment of the serious flaws, problems and hardships caused by the various groups of organised religious sects is very telling (and myopic).

I don't say religion is necessarily flawed, I say that organised religion is problematic - I say that based on history, both modern and ancient. Humans have and continue to do heinous inhumane acts to each other in the name of their organised religion... That is a flaw of our species as such.

mariacostel wrote on Nov 4^th, 2015 at 7:08am:

I think describing it as a failing is more than a bit harsh. In many way, I hate to imagine what an atheist society would be like - except that I don't. USSR and communist China are some examples to look at.

That is a somewhat polarised position - so, we either have organised religion or we have an atheist society...

To ignore the harm that organised religion is responsible for is yet another flaw - that said, you are welcome to your opinion that my stated position on this is a bit harsh - I disagree, I think it very moderate and honest. After all, I am not demanding it be stopped, I am not calling for people who practice a faith of an organised religious group be exiled, imprisoned or penalised in anyway - I am simply saying I think it is a flaw that we may need to get over one day...

I think it is more than a bit harsh after all for people who preach a faith to demonstrate, articulate and in some instances act on discriminatory opinions against those who either do not share their faith or are preachers/practitioners of another faith...

Your understanding of history is rather lamentable. Schools were founded by churches as were universities. It is only in relatively recent times that the state has become involved in these things. Take a look at the names of some of the oldest schools and universities. they are entirely church-founded schools. Mozart owed his life to church patronage as di Beethoven and so many others. Slavery of course was abolished largely at the behest of the Church. Social welfare was initially a Church-only function and even today, Churches do a great deal of the work.

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Stratos

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Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse.
Reply #169 - Nov 4^th, 2015 at 4:59pm

mariacostel wrote on Nov 4^th, 2015 at 3:01pm:

Despite the Gospels being accepted a generally reliable records

Nope nope nope. Find me one historian who believes based on evidence that the dead rose en masse and appeared to many people.

mariacostel wrote on Nov 4^th, 2015 at 3:01pm:

Matthew was a disciple. He was there. He was an eye-witness.

I assume you mean the author of Matthew? You mean the one who was added in later to an anonymous letter? If you don't believe me, look into it yourself. It was generations later that it was even called the gospel according to Matthew.

I'm surprised you know so little about the gospels Huh

There were many MANY "messiahs" in the first century, and generally we have secular accounts of them. None for Jesus though, which is very very interesting.

Ever heard of Simon of Perea? Probably not, not a great deal to know really. But he was significant enough messiah figure to be noticed by historians, whereas Jesus was not.

Here is the wikipedia page on messianic claimants, give them a look sometime.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_Messiah_claimants

It is fascinating that so many were mentioned by historians, but there is nothing similar for Jesus.

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Pete Waldo wrote on Jan 15^th, 2014 at 11:24pm:

Thus killing those Canaanite babies while they were still innocent, was a particularly merciful act

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mariacostel

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Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse.
Reply #170 - Nov 4^th, 2015 at 5:06pm

Stratos wrote on Nov 4^th, 2015 at 4:59pm:

mariacostel wrote on Nov 4^th, 2015 at 3:01pm:

Despite the Gospels being accepted a generally reliable records

Nope nope nope. Find me one historian who believes based on evidence that the dead rose en masse and appeared to many people.

mariacostel wrote on Nov 4^th, 2015 at 3:01pm:

Matthew was a disciple. He was there. He was an eye-witness.

I assume you mean the author of Matthew? You mean the one who was added in later to an anonymous letter? If you don't believe me, look into it yourself. It was generations later that it was even called the gospel according to Matthew.

I'm surprised you know so little about the gospels Huh

There were many MANY "messiahs" in the first century, and generally we have secular accounts of them. None for Jesus though, which is very very interesting.

Ever heard of Simon of Perea? Probably not, not a great deal to know really. But he was significant enough messiah figure to be noticed by historians, whereas Jesus was not.

Here is the wikipedia page on messianic claimants, give them a look sometime.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_Messiah_claimants

It is fascinating that so many were mentioned by historians, but there is nothing similar for Jesus.

There we go... right into the supernatural events. You cannot accept the historicity of Jesus because of his Divine claims. And that is the entire story, isn't it.

No secular accounts huh? Curious isn't it! Or it would be if it were true.

And spare me Wikipedia... Don't debase yourself further by asking OTHER people to got a site where readers can edit the articles... Get serious.

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Ajax

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Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse.
Reply #171 - Nov 4^th, 2015 at 5:08pm

Stratos wrote on Nov 4^th, 2015 at 4:59pm:

mariacostel wrote on Nov 4^th, 2015 at 3:01pm:

Despite the Gospels being accepted a generally reliable records

Nope nope nope. Find me one historian who believes based on evidence that the dead rose en masse and appeared to many people.

mariacostel wrote on Nov 4^th, 2015 at 3:01pm:

Matthew was a disciple. He was there. He was an eye-witness.

I assume you mean the author of Matthew? You mean the one who was added in later to an anonymous letter? If you don't believe me, look into it yourself. It was generations later that it was even called the gospel according to Matthew.

I'm surprised you know so little about the gospels Huh

There were many MANY "messiahs" in the first century, and generally we have secular accounts of them. None for Jesus though, which is very very interesting.

Ever heard of Simon of Perea? Probably not, not a great deal to know really. But he was significant enough messiah figure to be noticed by historians, whereas Jesus was not.

Here is the wikipedia page on messianic claimants, give them a look sometime.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_Messiah_claimants

It is fascinating that so many were mentioned by historians, but there is nothing similar for Jesus.

Hey Stratos I'm not qualified to act as though I under stand the passage about the dead rising as Jesus passes away on the cross.

But in lay mans from my understanding this passage is a metaphor that signifies all those that had died previous to Jesus went to hell.

No one went to heaven not even Moses or Abraham or Noah.

When Jesus died he went to hell and freed all those deserving to go to heaven.

Before Jesus death there was no heaven.

You recon the ancient Greeks new this...LOL

Every time they talked of dying they would always say tonight we or I dine in hades.

That's my 2 cents worth.

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1. There has never been a more serious assault on our standard of living than Anthropogenic Global Warming..Ajax
2. "One hour of freedom is worth more than 40 years of slavery & prison" Regas Feraeos

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Stratos

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Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse.
Reply #172 - Nov 4^th, 2015 at 5:13pm

mariacostel wrote on Nov 4^th, 2015 at 5:06pm:

There we go... right into the supernatural events.

Supernatural, any other, doesn't matter. I just went for the most overtly ridiculous. Still, if it IS true, don't you think anyone in the area wouldn't have even made mention of a zombie apocalypse?

All it would take is a single letter, a single record from the time when he was supposed to have lived, mentioning anything at all. But you can't produce that.

mariacostel wrote on Nov 4^th, 2015 at 5:06pm:

No secular accounts huh? Curious isn't it! Or it would be if it were true.

It is true. No secular account of Jesus exists that was written during Jesus lifetime. For that matter, no account of him at all was written during his lifetime. Again, a fairly curious set of circumstances considering the nobodies that were mentioned at by historians during that time.

If you have one, please post it.

mariacostel wrote on Nov 4^th, 2015 at 5:06pm:

And spare me Wikipedia... Don't debase yourself further by asking OTHER people to got a site where readers can edit the articles... Get serious.

The historians' passages regarding the Messiah's are all in the annotations. I just thought that would be the easiest way to check them about.

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Pete Waldo wrote on Jan 15^th, 2014 at 11:24pm:

Thus killing those Canaanite babies while they were still innocent, was a particularly merciful act

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Stratos

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Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse.
Reply #173 - Nov 4^th, 2015 at 5:16pm

Ajax wrote on Nov 4^th, 2015 at 5:08pm:

But in lay mans from my understanding this passage is a metaphor that signifies all those that had died previous to Jesus went to hell.

Except they claim to have met with real people.

Quote:

They came out of the tombs after Jesus' resurrection and went into the holy city and appeared to many people.

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Pete Waldo wrote on Jan 15^th, 2014 at 11:24pm:

Thus killing those Canaanite babies while they were still innocent, was a particularly merciful act

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Stratos

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Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse.
Reply #174 - Nov 4^th, 2015 at 7:46pm

mariacostel wrote on Nov 3^rd, 2015 at 10:18am:

There are plenty of eye-witness accounts.

In case you forgot your original claim, this is what you seem to be avoiding, and I'm curious to see who you had in mind when you made this assertion.

So far you have produced anonymous accounts, third hand accounts who never claimed to meet him, and accounts written generations after the events they describe.

So can you back up your claim that there are "plenty of eye-witness accounts?" or will you retract this statement?

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Pete Waldo wrote on Jan 15^th, 2014 at 11:24pm:

Thus killing those Canaanite babies while they were still innocent, was a particularly merciful act

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mariacostel

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Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse.
Reply #175 - Nov 5^th, 2015 at 7:51am

Stratos wrote on Nov 4^th, 2015 at 7:46pm:

mariacostel wrote on Nov 3^rd, 2015 at 10:18am:

There are plenty of eye-witness accounts.

In case you forgot your original claim, this is what you seem to be avoiding, and I'm curious to see who you had in mind when you made this assertion.

So far you have produced anonymous accounts, third hand accounts who never claimed to meet him, and accounts written generations after the events they describe.

So can you back up your claim that there are "plenty of eye-witness accounts?" or will you retract this statement?

When you decide to unilaterally reject the bibles witness accounts then there is not a lot of point in continuing. It is like debating Climate Change with you. The only evidence you accept is that which agrees with you. Anything the supports the other side is rejected solely BECAUSE it supports the other side. This is no different. You lack the intellectual integrity to debate this issue with you.

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John Smith Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 74762 Gender:	Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Reply #176 - Nov 5^th, 2015 at 7:57am mariacostel wrote on Nov 5^th, 2015 at 7:51am: When you decide to unilaterally reject the bibles witness accounts what bibles witness accounts?
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Stratos

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Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse.
Reply #177 - Nov 5^th, 2015 at 8:08am

I clearly explained why the gospels are not eyewitness accounts.

The authors are not known, most people who have studied them believe they were written at the earliest around 70AD (the earliest surviving copies we have are much younger than that though), which is an entire generation after the events they depict (two generations for those that begin before Jesus ministry), and the fact that the books themselves make no such claim to eyewitness status.

Please, read them again if you do not believe me, and look this up for yourself!

The fact you were unaware that they do not claim to be eyewitnesses, and that you didn't know that the names of the books were not around for a long time suggests you need to look into this subject a little bit more.

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Pete Waldo wrote on Jan 15^th, 2014 at 11:24pm:

Thus killing those Canaanite babies while they were still innocent, was a particularly merciful act

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aquascoot

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Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse.
Reply #178 - Nov 5^th, 2015 at 8:14am

this is just silliness.

Jesus was a complete nobody AT THE TIME OF THESE EVENTS.

i believe pontius pilate was a roman govenor and we only have 1 peice of hard evidence of his existence.
(a stone with his name on it).

So it would be unbelievable that someone as un noteworthy at the time as jesus would have a birth certificate or tombstone or parking ticket or whatever the current bunch of idiots claim as "evidence"

But it is beyond comprehension that he is a "made up character'. if you think he is made up, you are a dead set , intellectual midget Wink

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John Smith

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Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse.
Reply #179 - Nov 5^th, 2015 at 8:22am

aquascoot wrote on Nov 5^th, 2015 at 8:14am:

So it would be unbelievable that someone as un noteworthy at the time as jesus would have a birth certificate or tombstone or parking ticket or whatever the current bunch of idiots claim as "evidence"

actually the Romans were great record keepers for their time... they have found thousands of old tax collection records etc. and yet, despite Jesus supposedly becoming Romes public enemy Number 1, and despite all the miracles, not once was he or any of the main cast of the show, ever mentioned in any of the records .... one would think that if any were true someone would have made a record of it somewhere?

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Our esteemed leader:
I hope that bitch who was running their brothels for them gets raped with a cactus.

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