Australian Politics Forum - Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse.

Phemanderac

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Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse.
Reply #180 - Nov 5^th, 2015 at 8:24am

mariacostel wrote on Nov 4^th, 2015 at 4:27pm:

Phemanderac wrote on Nov 4^th, 2015 at 3:07pm:

mariacostel wrote on Nov 4^th, 2015 at 7:06am:

Phemanderac wrote on Nov 4^th, 2015 at 6:48am:

mariacostel wrote on Nov 4^th, 2015 at 6:35am:

By the way, Plato is a myth.

Well the evidence of his existence is as valid as that of JC or Mo at least.

Actually, the evidence for plato is several orders of magnitude LESS than for Jesus. You can't have it both ways.

No it isn't, that's the point. The overall belief about both is based on consensus by academics due to the lack of hard evidence.

Now, that said, consensus is apparently a contentious issue. After all the comments about consensus in the context of the climate change argument (it is nothing like a debate after all), as such, it is you who can't have it both ways.

That is completely wrong! Historians don't decide on the veracity of historical claims based on consensus. They weight the evidence (which exists by the way) and come to conclusions. They have concluded that Jesus (and Plato) both existed largely in the manner in which they have been described.

The evidence speaks.

No it isn't completely wrong at all...

Demonstrate the evidence then if, as you say it exists.

The "conclusion" is agreed to, which by definition is a consensus. That conclusion by the way, is that, specifically in the case of Jesus at least, that he may have existed as a real person historically. No evidence supports his divinity though, that is purely faith based.

So, the "manner in which they were described" is in fact not correct, far more accurate to say historians have concluded that they both existed...

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Stratos

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Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse.
Reply #181 - Nov 5^th, 2015 at 8:25am

aquascoot wrote on Nov 5^th, 2015 at 8:14am:

Jesus was a complete nobody AT THE TIME OF THESE EVENTS.

According to the Bible, this is quite false. He had a devoted, dedicated following, and was renowned for upsetting the authorities at the time, ending in a huge public spectacle of an execution, if you believe the Bible.

aquascoot wrote on Nov 5^th, 2015 at 8:14am:

i believe pontius pilate was a roman govenor and we only have 1 peice of hard evidence of his existence.

He is mentioned by several other historians, and was apparently widely known for his hatred of Jews. Which then puts him at odds with the gospels, when he decides to execute what he believed was an innocent man because of a Jewish Passover tradition, which all other accounts indicate he wouldn't have remotely cared about.

In terms of the archaeological evidence, there is indeed the Pilate stone only so far. Maybe one day we'll find a single piece of archaeological evidence that supports Jesus existence in the first century?

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Pete Waldo wrote on Jan 15^th, 2014 at 11:24pm:

Thus killing those Canaanite babies while they were still innocent, was a particularly merciful act

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mariacostel

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Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse.
Reply #182 - Nov 5^th, 2015 at 8:25am

Stratos wrote on Nov 5^th, 2015 at 8:08am:

I clearly explained why the gospels are not eyewitness accounts.

The authors are not known, most people who have studied them believe they were written at the earliest around 70AD (the earliest surviving copies we have are much younger than that though), which is an entire generation after the events they depict (two generations for those that begin before Jesus ministry), and the fact that the books themselves make no such claim to eyewitness status.

Please, read them again if you do not believe me, and look this up for yourself!

The fact you were unaware that they do not claim to be eyewitnesses, and that you didn't know that the names of the books were not around for a long time suggests you need to look into this subject a little bit more.

Let's just grant for a moment that the authors are 'unknown'. How does that in any way reduce the veracity of the accounts? Let's also grant they were written 30 years after the events. How does that reduce the veracity of the accounts. Could you not write a detailed an accurate account of something you did 30 years ago?

So giving you your two most important claims, how does that change anything?

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Phemanderac

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Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse.
Reply #183 - Nov 5^th, 2015 at 8:27am

mariacostel wrote on Nov 4^th, 2015 at 4:31pm:

Phemanderac wrote on Nov 4^th, 2015 at 3:19pm:

mariacostel wrote on Nov 4^th, 2015 at 7:08am:

Phemanderac wrote on Nov 4^th, 2015 at 6:52am:

Religious teaching is child abuse, well, at least that is the stated opinion of one person...

Others may agree with this too.

The same person said though that people beliefs should be respected - he stated his beliefs, they might appear disrespectful, however, he is not making threats, censoring, shutting down or berating believers, simply putting his point of view... Isn't that his right?

I think organised religion is our biggest failing as a sentient species - if people chose to follow their myth so be it. I also have this idea that live and let live is not a bad philosophy.

And yet, religion is what has founded nations, schools, health, art and music. Today, the majority of social work is done by the Church, especially in foreign countries.

No it isn't, it was not because of religion that Australia was founded, certainly organised religion was along for the ride, but not the driver.

Nations, schools, health, art and music occur regardless of organised religion, in fact, often times throughout history in spite of it.

I think you present a very myopic view to be blunt.

As to the "social work" how that actually works is that Organised Religious groups get funded, however, a significant share of the actual face to face workload is done by people of no specific religious affiliation, as it should be.

Your clear lack of acknowledgment of the serious flaws, problems and hardships caused by the various groups of organised religious sects is very telling (and myopic).

I don't say religion is necessarily flawed, I say that organised religion is problematic - I say that based on history, both modern and ancient. Humans have and continue to do heinous inhumane acts to each other in the name of their organised religion... That is a flaw of our species as such.

mariacostel wrote on Nov 4^th, 2015 at 7:08am:

I think describing it as a failing is more than a bit harsh. In many way, I hate to imagine what an atheist society would be like - except that I don't. USSR and communist China are some examples to look at.

That is a somewhat polarised position - so, we either have organised religion or we have an atheist society...

To ignore the harm that organised religion is responsible for is yet another flaw - that said, you are welcome to your opinion that my stated position on this is a bit harsh - I disagree, I think it very moderate and honest. After all, I am not demanding it be stopped, I am not calling for people who practice a faith of an organised religious group be exiled, imprisoned or penalised in anyway - I am simply saying I think it is a flaw that we may need to get over one day...

I think it is more than a bit harsh after all for people who preach a faith to demonstrate, articulate and in some instances act on discriminatory opinions against those who either do not share their faith or are preachers/practitioners of another faith...

Your understanding of history is rather lamentable. Schools were founded by churches as were universities. It is only in relatively recent times that the state has become involved in these things. Take a look at the names of some of the oldest schools and universities. they are entirely church-founded schools. Mozart owed his life to church patronage as di Beethoven and so many others. Slavery of course was abolished largely at the behest of the Church. Social welfare was initially a Church-only function and even today, Churches do a great deal of the work.

Well, the only reasonable response here is that your myopic view of history is rather lamentable.

I have not said religion played no part, however, it is not the single driving factor. Further, I have used the term religion and not "Church" deliberately.

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On the 26th of January you are all invited to celebrate little white penal day...

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mariacostel

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Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse.
Reply #184 - Nov 5^th, 2015 at 8:43am

Phemanderac wrote on Nov 5^th, 2015 at 8:27am:

mariacostel wrote on Nov 4^th, 2015 at 4:31pm:

Phemanderac wrote on Nov 4^th, 2015 at 3:19pm:

mariacostel wrote on Nov 4^th, 2015 at 7:08am:

Phemanderac wrote on Nov 4^th, 2015 at 6:52am:

Religious teaching is child abuse, well, at least that is the stated opinion of one person...

Others may agree with this too.

The same person said though that people beliefs should be respected - he stated his beliefs, they might appear disrespectful, however, he is not making threats, censoring, shutting down or berating believers, simply putting his point of view... Isn't that his right?

I think organised religion is our biggest failing as a sentient species - if people chose to follow their myth so be it. I also have this idea that live and let live is not a bad philosophy.

And yet, religion is what has founded nations, schools, health, art and music. Today, the majority of social work is done by the Church, especially in foreign countries.

No it isn't, it was not because of religion that Australia was founded, certainly organised religion was along for the ride, but not the driver.

Nations, schools, health, art and music occur regardless of organised religion, in fact, often times throughout history in spite of it.

I think you present a very myopic view to be blunt.

As to the "social work" how that actually works is that Organised Religious groups get funded, however, a significant share of the actual face to face workload is done by people of no specific religious affiliation, as it should be.

Your clear lack of acknowledgment of the serious flaws, problems and hardships caused by the various groups of organised religious sects is very telling (and myopic).

I don't say religion is necessarily flawed, I say that organised religion is problematic - I say that based on history, both modern and ancient. Humans have and continue to do heinous inhumane acts to each other in the name of their organised religion... That is a flaw of our species as such.

mariacostel wrote on Nov 4^th, 2015 at 7:08am:

I think describing it as a failing is more than a bit harsh. In many way, I hate to imagine what an atheist society would be like - except that I don't. USSR and communist China are some examples to look at.

That is a somewhat polarised position - so, we either have organised religion or we have an atheist society...

To ignore the harm that organised religion is responsible for is yet another flaw - that said, you are welcome to your opinion that my stated position on this is a bit harsh - I disagree, I think it very moderate and honest. After all, I am not demanding it be stopped, I am not calling for people who practice a faith of an organised religious group be exiled, imprisoned or penalised in anyway - I am simply saying I think it is a flaw that we may need to get over one day...

I think it is more than a bit harsh after all for people who preach a faith to demonstrate, articulate and in some instances act on discriminatory opinions against those who either do not share their faith or are preachers/practitioners of another faith...

Your understanding of history is rather lamentable. Schools were founded by churches as were universities. It is only in relatively recent times that the state has become involved in these things. Take a look at the names of some of the oldest schools and universities. they are entirely church-founded schools. Mozart owed his life to church patronage as di Beethoven and so many others. Slavery of course was abolished largely at the behest of the Church. Social welfare was initially a Church-only function and even today, Churches do a great deal of the work.

Well, the only reasonable response here is that your myopic view of history is rather lamentable.

I have not said religion played no part, however, it is not the single driving factor. Further, I have used the term religion and not "Church" deliberately.

I am using the term Christian Church to mean religion since I assumed we were discussing western civilisation.

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Phemanderac Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 3507 Gender:	Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Reply #185 - Nov 5^th, 2015 at 8:46am Well, I was pretty clear I think when I said organised religion... I guess if to you that only means western religion then there is a whole lot more stuff to talk about.
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aquascoot

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Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse.
Reply #186 - Nov 5^th, 2015 at 8:47am

John Smith wrote on Nov 5^th, 2015 at 8:22am:

aquascoot wrote on Nov 5^th, 2015 at 8:14am:

So it would be unbelievable that someone as un noteworthy at the time as jesus would have a birth certificate or tombstone or parking ticket or whatever the current bunch of idiots claim as "evidence"

actually the Romans were great record keepers for their time... they have found thousands of old tax collection records etc. and yet, despite Jesus supposedly becoming Romes public enemy Number 1, and despite all the miracles, not once was he or any of the main cast of the show, ever mentioned in any of the records .... one would think that if any were true someone would have made a record of it somewhere?

romes public enemy number 1 ?

at the time of his actual existence ?

i think there would not have been a single person in rome at the time of his cruxificion who had even heard of him. Not 1 Wink

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Stratos

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Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse.
Reply #187 - Nov 5^th, 2015 at 8:48am

mariacostel wrote on Nov 5^th, 2015 at 8:25am:

Let's just grant for a moment that the authors are 'unknown'. How does that in any way reduce the veracity of the accounts?

They are unknown. At least until someone can demonstrate an author that is. Anonymous accounts are of course, useless unless they can be corrobarated with other evidence. If you found, say, a bunch of archaeological remains that could verify events the author wrote about then sure, you might start seeing it as a correct version of historical events, but we just don't see that.

Not a single piece of evidence that Jesus even existed is there.

mariacostel wrote on Nov 5^th, 2015 at 8:25am:

Let's also grant they were written 30 years after the events. How does that reduce the veracity of the accounts.

Life expectancy mostly. What are the chances that all of the authors could have witnessed the events, then lived another forty years (for Mark), or fifty years (for Luke and Matthew).

This would make all four of the authors positively ancient for their time period. Not to mention that for Luke and Matthew, both of whose account begins before the birth of Jesus, would put them as extremely old even in today's modern age.

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Pete Waldo wrote on Jan 15^th, 2014 at 11:24pm:

Thus killing those Canaanite babies while they were still innocent, was a particularly merciful act

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mariacostel

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Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse.
Reply #188 - Nov 5^th, 2015 at 9:25am

Stratos wrote on Nov 5^th, 2015 at 8:48am:

mariacostel wrote on Nov 5^th, 2015 at 8:25am:

Let's just grant for a moment that the authors are 'unknown'. How does that in any way reduce the veracity of the accounts?

They are unknown. At least until someone can demonstrate an author that is. Anonymous accounts are of course, useless unless they can be corrobarated with other evidence. If you found, say, a bunch of archaeological remains that could verify events the author wrote about then sure, you might start seeing it as a correct version of historical events, but we just don't see that.

Not a single piece of evidence that Jesus even existed is there.

mariacostel wrote on Nov 5^th, 2015 at 8:25am:

Let's also grant they were written 30 years after the events. How does that reduce the veracity of the accounts.

Life expectancy mostly. What are the chances that all of the authors could have witnessed the events, then lived another forty years (for Mark), or fifty years (for Luke and Matthew).

This would make all four of the authors positively ancient for their time period. Not to mention that for Luke and Matthew, both of whose account begins before the birth of Jesus, would put them as extremely old even in today's modern age.

You've never read a biography, have you?

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Sir lastnail

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Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse.
Reply #189 - Nov 5^th, 2015 at 9:35am

mariacostel wrote on Nov 4^th, 2015 at 4:25pm:

Sir lastnail wrote on Nov 4^th, 2015 at 3:06pm:

mariacostel wrote on Nov 4^th, 2015 at 3:01pm:

Stratos wrote on Nov 4^th, 2015 at 12:54pm:

Maria, I know you are caught up in a climate debate, but I was wondering if you are going to respond to my previous post about why the gospels are not primary sources?

If you are interested in how the gospels came to be, I recommend looking yourself into the Gospel of Mark (anonymously written), which is generally accepted to have had sections taken from it when the gospels of Luke and Matthew were written. As mentioned, the author of Luke does not claim to be any kind of eyewitness either, but having learnt from Paul.

John's author was given a title ("the Disciple whom Jesus loved"), but no specific name, and there are many differing ideas on who actually this may be referring to.

So, in summary.

Mark (anonymous)
Matthew (derived from Mark, anonymously written, no claim to being an eyewitness account)
Luke (no claim to be a primary source in the first place)
John (title given, no name, many differing theories on authorship)

So I feel I have to ask again, who do you think wrote these books, and why do you believe they are eyewitness accounts, despite the fact the books themselves disagree with you? You mentioned there were other accounts too I believe, who are they?

Look, to be honest I don't have a great desire to do this debate with you because I've heard it all before and I know how it ends up. Despite the Gospels being accepted a generally reliable records, you will constantly claim they are not. Matthew was a disciple. He was there. He was an eye-witness. The Apostle Peter likewise was an eye-witness and in his writings (letters from peter) confirms the record and in places quotes from it. And on we go. The crux of the problem is that you will always find a reason to reject it and largely for bogus or subjective reasons, not rational ones.

I will state right now that there is no chance you could prove the historical existence of Julius Caesar using the methodology you employ for Jesus. I will simply cast aspersions on the accuracy of every claim you make including the non-existence of any eye-witness accounts.

The difference between the historical claims of Caesar and Christ is that only one made supernatural claims and that alone is why you reject the entire historical record. Because you reject any supernatural or religious commentary you feel you are right to therefore reject everything. It is bad scholarship and the reason why most historians do not dispute the historical Jesus.

Now show us a Jesus coin Wink

http://www.thehistoryblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/06/Nero-aureus.jpg

Show us a plato coin. Show us an alexander the Great coin. And while you are at it, show us an Einstein coin.

No need for an Einstein coin Wink

And did any of these other people claim to have survived after 3 days of cardiac arrest ? Common sense prevails that someone by the name of Jesus could never have existed except in a fictional story !!

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In August 2021, Newcastle Coroner Karen Dilks recorded that Lisa Shaw had died “due to complications of an AstraZeneca COVID vaccination”.

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Stratos Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 4725	Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Reply #190 - Nov 5^th, 2015 at 9:41am mariacostel wrote on Nov 5^th, 2015 at 9:25am: You've never read a biography, have you? Oh are you trying to move the goalposts now? You originally claimed that they were eyewitness accounts, now you just think they are biographies? Two very different things.
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Sir lastnail

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Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse.
Reply #191 - Nov 5^th, 2015 at 9:44am

Stratos wrote on Nov 5^th, 2015 at 9:41am:

mariacostel wrote on Nov 5^th, 2015 at 9:25am:

You've never read a biography, have you?

Oh are you trying to move the goalposts now? You originally claimed that they were eyewitness accounts, now you just think they are biographies? Two very different things.

There is no evidence that Jesus ever existed other than what is documented in the equivalence of a Harry Potter novel !!

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In August 2021, Newcastle Coroner Karen Dilks recorded that Lisa Shaw had died “due to complications of an AstraZeneca COVID vaccination”.

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mariacostel

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Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse.
Reply #192 - Nov 5^th, 2015 at 9:58am

Stratos wrote on Nov 5^th, 2015 at 9:41am:

mariacostel wrote on Nov 5^th, 2015 at 9:25am:

You've never read a biography, have you?

Oh are you trying to move the goalposts now? You originally claimed that they were eyewitness accounts, now you just think they are biographies? Two very different things.

All you have done is shown that you will reject any and all evidence that is presented. And in the meantime, the best known and most revered character in all of history is Jesus Christ. Not bad for someone you claim never even existed.

There is no evidence you would ever accept, is there? But plato? No problem.

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Sir lastnail

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Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse.
Reply #193 - Nov 5^th, 2015 at 10:05am

mariacostel wrote on Nov 5^th, 2015 at 9:58am:

Stratos wrote on Nov 5^th, 2015 at 9:41am:

mariacostel wrote on Nov 5^th, 2015 at 9:25am:

You've never read a biography, have you?

Oh are you trying to move the goalposts now? You originally claimed that they were eyewitness accounts, now you just think they are biographies? Two very different things.

All you have done is shown that you will reject any and all evidence that is presented. And in the meantime, the best known and most revered character in all of history is Jesus Christ. Not bad for someone you claim never even existed.

There is no evidence you would ever accept, is there? But plato? No problem.

Yes pray for Jesus to appear in front of us just like he appeared to many after his crucifixion Wink

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In August 2021, Newcastle Coroner Karen Dilks recorded that Lisa Shaw had died “due to complications of an AstraZeneca COVID vaccination”.

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Stratos

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Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse.
Reply #194 - Nov 5^th, 2015 at 10:07am

mariacostel wrote on Nov 5^th, 2015 at 9:58am:

All you have done is shown that you will reject any and all evidence that is presented.

You have provided no evidence at all of your claim that there were many eyewitnesses of Jesus.

You haven't even mentioned who these people are, yet you believe they were acurate?

mariacostel wrote on Nov 5^th, 2015 at 9:58am:

There is no evidence you would ever accept, is there?

A single account about him, written or archaeological about Jesus from the period he was suppsoed to live.

That isn't much is it?

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Pete Waldo wrote on Jan 15^th, 2014 at 11:24pm:

Thus killing those Canaanite babies while they were still innocent, was a particularly merciful act

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