Australian Politics Forum - Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse.

mariacostel

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Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse.
Reply #225 - Nov 5^th, 2015 at 5:45pm

mothra wrote on Nov 5^th, 2015 at 5:20pm:

mariacostel wrote on Nov 5^th, 2015 at 5:06pm:

mothra wrote on Nov 5^th, 2015 at 5:03pm:

mariacostel wrote on Nov 5^th, 2015 at 5:00pm:

mothra wrote on Nov 5^th, 2015 at 3:48pm:

mariacostel wrote on Nov 5^th, 2015 at 3:39pm:

Stratos wrote on Nov 5^th, 2015 at 3:35pm:

Aw cute, trying to go for a third dodge now are you?

mariacostel wrote on Nov 5^th, 2015 at 3:27pm:

Are you going to comment on the possible reasons that virtually no historians agree with you?

I think you'll find most historians agree with me that there are no records of Jesus from within his supposed timeframe.

Also, are you going to keep breaking the ninth commandment or come up with some of these alleged eyewitnesses?

Stratos wrote on Nov 5^th, 2015 at 3:18pm:

So are you still claiming that there are lots of eyewitnesses, and willing to provide evidence as such, or are you willing to admit this is a false statement?

I'm sure you wouldn't be OK with bearing false witness, so please address your previous claim, and whether you still think it is accurate, or if not, provide these eyewitnesses you think exist.

Then you will be wrong. Why do you think they all agree that Jesus existed? In large measure because they don't reject all the accounts in the Gospels which were eye-witness (despite your objections) for the odd reasons you do. They look at the sum of evidence and happily and virtually universally accept that Jesus existed.

You need to ask why historians don't have the problem you do. Perhaps because they are looking at it with clear unbiased eyes while you are inserting all your anti-Christian feelings into it.

How can the Gospels be eyewitness accounts when they were written so many years after Jesus was killed?

Are you serious? Can you write about events that happened 30 years ago in your life? Of course you can - and so did they.

They think the first one written was by 'Mark'. That was thought to be written around 70AD.

How would anyboby be alive to know Jesus and still be alive in 70AD?

The disciples were probably early 20s at worst and 35 years later were????? 55 years old. People did live that long then you know.

Your maths is interesting Maria. I don't know what the relevance of 35 years is but if we are to assume that Mark was around the same age as Jesus, he wrote the Gospel when he was about 70, if he was in his early 20 when he hooked up with JC, then in his 60's.

That's getting a little long in the tooth.

More importantly, most scholars believe that Mark was written by a second generation Christian, dictated possibly from Peter.

That's a close as you're going to get to an "eyewitness account" Maria.

There is an awful lot of presumption there, Mothra. You have no reason to imagine Mark was any older than 20 and perhaps even still in his late teens. That would make him in his 50s.

As for your last claim about the book of Mark dictated by Peter, are you aware that Peter was an eye-witness?

The ancient world often didn't not put down who wrote things. It was common practice. The absence of authorship credentials does not extinguish authorship.

The Gospels even claim to be written by eye-witnesses. At some point you need to accept a few things at face value or you end up rejecting EVERYTHING. Not everyone is out to con you and just because there is no absolute proof of a fact, does not make it a lie.

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Stratos Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 4725	Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Reply #226 - Nov 5^th, 2015 at 5:47pm mariacostel wrote on Nov 5^th, 2015 at 5:45pm: The Gospels even claim to be written by eye-witnesses. Lol, maybe read them. edit: even better, please quote in all four where they are claiming to be written by eyewitnesses.
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aquascoot

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Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse.
Reply #227 - Nov 5^th, 2015 at 5:56pm

John Smith wrote on Nov 5^th, 2015 at 10:54am:

aquascoot wrote on Nov 5^th, 2015 at 8:47am:

John Smith wrote on Nov 5^th, 2015 at 8:22am:

aquascoot wrote on Nov 5^th, 2015 at 8:14am:

So it would be unbelievable that someone as un noteworthy at the time as jesus would have a birth certificate or tombstone or parking ticket or whatever the current bunch of idiots claim as "evidence"

actually the Romans were great record keepers for their time... they have found thousands of old tax collection records etc. and yet, despite Jesus supposedly becoming Romes public enemy Number 1, and despite all the miracles, not once was he or any of the main cast of the show, ever mentioned in any of the records .... one would think that if any were true someone would have made a record of it somewhere?

romes public enemy number 1 ?

at the time of his actual existence ?

i think there would not have been a single person in rome at the time of his cruxificion who had even heard of him. Not 1 Wink

Pontius Pilate Cheesy

he was in judea

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mariacostel

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Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse.
Reply #228 - Nov 5^th, 2015 at 5:59pm

Stratos wrote on Nov 5^th, 2015 at 5:47pm:

mariacostel wrote on Nov 5^th, 2015 at 5:45pm:

The Gospels even claim to be written by eye-witnesses.

Lol, maybe read them.

edit: even better, please quote in all four where they are claiming to be written by eyewitnesses.

1:1 Since many have undertaken to arrange in proper order an account of the events that have been fulfilled among us, 2 just as from the beginning the eyewitnesses and those becoming ministers of the Word handed down to us, 3 so also it seemed good to me, accurately following and investigating everything from the first, to write to you in order (an account), most excellent Theophilus, 4 so that you may know the certainty of the words (of the gospel) you have been taught.*

Luke 1

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mothra

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Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse.
Reply #229 - Nov 5^th, 2015 at 6:02pm

mariacostel wrote on Nov 5^th, 2015 at 5:45pm:

There is an awful lot of presumption there, Mothra. You have no reason to imagine Mark was any older than 20 and perhaps even still in his late teens. That would make him in his 50s.

As for your last claim about the book of Mark dictated by Peter, are you aware that Peter was an eye-witness?

The ancient world often didn't not put down who wrote things. It was common practice. The absence of authorship credentials does not extinguish authorship.

The Gospels even claim to be written by eye-witnesses. At some point you need to accept a few things at face value or you end up rejecting EVERYTHING. Not everyone is out to con you and just because there is no absolute proof of a fact, does not make it a lie.

No more presumption than you yourself speak with Maria. More plausibility perhaps, but no less presumption.

If it were dictated by Peter, it was not written by an eyewptness, and that is only a thin theory.

It's difficult to know really what the Gospel's claim as they are full of so many historical inaccuracies but it is thought by scholars that Mark was written by a second generation Christian. And that is the earliest Gospel.

As for just accepting things at face value, well, that's why i'm questioning your claim as to "many eyewitnesses". It doesn't seen to be the case.

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If you can't be a good example, you have to be a horrible warning.

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mariacostel

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Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse.
Reply #230 - Nov 5^th, 2015 at 6:02pm

“I guess I ought to clarify my position on eyewitness testimony in the Gospels, since it has been raised and you, Larry, say: ‘As I understand him, he doesn’t mean that the Gospels are “eyewitness testimony” such as a court transcript would provide, but that the Gospels draw on “eyewitness testimony” as it circulated in early Christian circles.’ Well, no, certainly nothing like a court transcript, more like “oral history.” But my point was that the Gospels are CLOSE to the eyewitnesses’ own testimony, not removed from them by decades of oral tradition. I think there is a very good case for Papias’s claim that Mark got his much of his material directly from Peter (and I will substantiate this further with quite new evidence in the sequel to [my book] Jesus and the Eyewitnesses that I’m now writing). I think that the ‘Beloved Disciple’ himself wrote the Gospel of John as we have it, and that he was a disciple of Jesus and thus an eyewitness himself, as he claims, though not John the son of Zebedee. Of course, his Gospel is the product of his life-long reflection on what he had witnessed, the most interpretative of the Gospels, but still the only one actually written by an eyewitness, who, precisely because he was close to Jesus, felt entitled to interpret quite extensively. Luke, as well as incorporating written material (Mark’s Gospel, which he knew as substantially Peter’s version of the Gospel story, and probably some of the “Q” material was in written form), also, I think, did what ancient historians did: he took every opportunity to meet eyewitnesses and interviewed them. He has probably collected material from a number of minor eyewitnesses from whom he got individual stories or sayings. Matthew is the Gospel I understand least! But whatever accounts for Matthew it is not the form-critical picture of anonymous community traditions, which we really must now abandon!”

https://larryhurtado.wordpress.com/2013/11/19/bauckham-on-eyewitnesses-and-the-g
ospels/

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mothra

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Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse.
Reply #231 - Nov 5^th, 2015 at 6:15pm

mariacostel wrote on Nov 5^th, 2015 at 6:02pm:

I think that the ‘Beloved Disciple’ himself wrote the Gospel of John as we have it, and that he was a disciple of Jesus and thus an eyewitness himself, as he claims,

But John is almost certainly not written by John the Beloved, or any apostate. It is thought to be written 80-95AD.

Anyway, why do you get to pimp a study by a Christian yet you ridicule me for linking to a study on same sex marriage written by a gay academic?

Find me a secular academic who supports you Maria.

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If you can't be a good example, you have to be a horrible warning.

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Stratos

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Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse.
Reply #232 - Nov 5^th, 2015 at 6:15pm

mariacostel wrote on Nov 5^th, 2015 at 5:59pm:

just as from the beginning the eyewitnesses and those becoming ministers of the Word handed down to us,

So the only one you bother replying to, shows that the author was NOT AN EYEWITNESS. Grin

This is a second hand source Maria! I'm starting to think you might just be trolling, that is far too dumb of a response to have been thought out.

Your second one too, just makes the claim that they got the information from someone else. I.E, they did not see the events themselves.

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Pete Waldo wrote on Jan 15^th, 2014 at 11:24pm:

Thus killing those Canaanite babies while they were still innocent, was a particularly merciful act

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greggerypeccary

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Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse.
Reply #233 - Nov 5^th, 2015 at 6:27pm

mothra wrote on Nov 5^th, 2015 at 6:15pm:

mariacostel wrote on Nov 5^th, 2015 at 6:02pm:

I think that the ‘Beloved Disciple’ himself wrote the Gospel of John as we have it, and that he was a disciple of Jesus and thus an eyewitness himself, as he claims,

But John is almost certainly not written by John the Beloved, or any apostate. It is thought to be written 80-95AD.

Anyway, why do you get to pimp a study by a Christian yet you ridicule me for linking to a study on same sex marriage written by a gay academic?

Find me a secular academic who supports you Maria.

Longy just got owned Grin

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Postmodern Trendoid III

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Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse.
Reply #234 - Nov 5^th, 2015 at 6:28pm

... wrote on Nov 2^nd, 2015 at 9:46pm:

____ wrote on Nov 2^nd, 2015 at 9:19pm:

Paul Ehrlich on qanda

http://www.abc.net.au/tv/qanda/coming_up.htm#PAUL_EHRLICH

Stated teaching children fictional religions is child abuse.

So why is this child abuse acceptable?

And yet, just a few short days ago, you and the rest of the leftist circus was arguing until you were blue in the face about how moslems in years 2 - 6 were right to place their religion above simple respect for the community in which they live.

Would you Care to explain the inconsistency?

Unbelievable inconsistency.

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mothra

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Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse.
Reply #235 - Nov 5^th, 2015 at 6:33pm

Postmodern Trendoid III wrote on Nov 5^th, 2015 at 6:28pm:

... wrote on Nov 2^nd, 2015 at 9:46pm:

____ wrote on Nov 2^nd, 2015 at 9:19pm:

Paul Ehrlich on qanda

http://www.abc.net.au/tv/qanda/coming_up.htm#PAUL_EHRLICH

Stated teaching children fictional religions is child abuse.

So why is this child abuse acceptable?

And yet, just a few short days ago, you and the rest of the leftist circus was arguing until you were blue in the face about how moslems in years 2 - 6 were right to place their religion above simple respect for the community in which they live.

Would you Care to explain the inconsistency?

Unbelievable inconsistency.

I don;t remember Greens in that thread and i've yet to see one lefty from that thread agree that raising a child to be religious is child abuse.

Pitchforks down boys.

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If you can't be a good example, you have to be a horrible warning.

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John Smith

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Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse.
Reply #236 - Nov 5^th, 2015 at 6:55pm

aquascoot wrote on Nov 5^th, 2015 at 5:56pm:

John Smith wrote on Nov 5^th, 2015 at 10:54am:

aquascoot wrote on Nov 5^th, 2015 at 8:47am:

John Smith wrote on Nov 5^th, 2015 at 8:22am:

aquascoot wrote on Nov 5^th, 2015 at 8:14am:

So it would be unbelievable that someone as un noteworthy at the time as jesus would have a birth certificate or tombstone or parking ticket or whatever the current bunch of idiots claim as "evidence"

actually the Romans were great record keepers for their time... they have found thousands of old tax collection records etc. and yet, despite Jesus supposedly becoming Romes public enemy Number 1, and despite all the miracles, not once was he or any of the main cast of the show, ever mentioned in any of the records .... one would think that if any were true someone would have made a record of it somewhere?

romes public enemy number 1 ?

at the time of his actual existence ?

i think there would not have been a single person in rome at the time of his cruxificion who had even heard of him. Not 1 Wink

Pontius Pilate Cheesy

he was in judea

Rome was not just a city you boofhead. It was an empire spreads out across the entire known world at the time.

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Our esteemed leader:
I hope that bitch who was running their brothels for them gets raped with a cactus.

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Soren

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Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse.
Reply #237 - Nov 5^th, 2015 at 7:34pm

Soren wrote on Nov 3^rd, 2015 at 5:52pm:

____ wrote on Nov 3^rd, 2015 at 5:05pm:

Soren wrote on Nov 3^rd, 2015 at 4:20pm:

____ wrote on Nov 2^nd, 2015 at 9:51pm:

... wrote on Nov 2^nd, 2015 at 9:46pm:

[quote author=Tony_Abbott link=1446463185/0#0 date=1446463185]Paul Ehrlich on qanda

http://www.abc.net.au/tv/qanda/coming_up.htm#PAUL_EHRLICH

Stated teaching children fictional religions is child abuse.

So why is this child abuse acceptable?

And yet, just a few short days ago, you and the rest of the leftist circus was arguing until you were blue in the face about how moslems in years 2 - 6 were right to place their religion above simple respect for the community in which they live.

Would you Care to explain the inconsistency?

The only statement I made on a muslim thread in the last few days is 'this is a storm in a teacup' and stopped reading.

If what Erlich says, on Q&A ore anywhere else, is not the ultimate definition of a storm in a teacup, what is??

Nice of you to consider child abuse a storm in a teacup.

Oh, you emoting, po-faced little Nazi, you.

Just because you or Erlich assert something as child abuse it doesn't make it so.

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greggerypeccary Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 138111 Gender:	Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Reply #238 - Nov 5^th, 2015 at 7:37pm Here's a white Christian, teaching kids some things: http://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-11-05/perth-pastor-dawid-volmer-faces-jail-over-... Are you a fan of his, Sore End? Good white Christian boy, and all.
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Phemanderac

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Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse.
Reply #239 - Nov 5^th, 2015 at 8:41pm

Funny thing I realised, the T-Rex never kept records, wrote books, paid taxes or built anything - yet there would appear to be more solid, measurable and irrefutable existence of T-Rex than JC...

All that said, it's a moot idea really, the reality is that the world has a significant number of organised religious groups, who, for the main part, believe they are the only ones who are right...

That can't end well. Over mythology - sheesh

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On the 26th of January you are all invited to celebrate little white penal day...

"They're not rules as such, more like guidelines" Pirates of the Caribbean..

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