Australian Politics Forum - Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse.

mothra

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Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse.
Reply #255 - Nov 6^th, 2015 at 11:37am

mariacostel wrote on Nov 6^th, 2015 at 11:33am:

So, an eye-witness account only matters if the person writes it themselves? So a ghost-written 'auto-biography' is a complete lie? Do we have to discard any and all evidence and information pertaining to a person unless it was self-written by an eye-witness?

This was what I meant by continually raising the standard of proof bar so that you can happily exclude any material you don't like. And that is why historians don't have the problems you do.

It's not that it matters Maria, it's that it ceases to be an eyewitness account. No-one is saying that it necessarily makes the content matter a lie (although i think that it is), we are simply saying it is not an eyewitness account.

This is not raising the standard of proof. It is calling you to question the appropriate use of the word "eyewitness".

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If you can't be a good example, you have to be a horrible warning.

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mariacostel

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Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse.
Reply #256 - Nov 6^th, 2015 at 11:49am

Stratos wrote on Nov 6^th, 2015 at 11:37am:

mariacostel wrote on Nov 6^th, 2015 at 11:33am:

So a ghost-written 'auto-biography' is a complete lie?

If it is claiming to be an autobiography, yes. You are literally arguing with the dictionary now Maria

mariacostel wrote on Nov 6^th, 2015 at 11:33am:

This was what I meant by continually raising the standard of proof bar so that you can happily exclude any material you don't like.

I have never changed my standard of proof since we started. Any contemporary account, written or archaeological of Jesus will do. You seem to think there were a bunch of eyewitnesses (like Luke Grin

), so provide this and I'll stand entirely with you.

But you keep dodging this question, so I guess you were just lying. Very un-Christian of you

Just as long as you get to reject any such accounts for any reason whatsoever, right? John - eyewitness - rejected because he took a while to write it? Mark - the first hand accounts of Peter - eyewitness - rejected because of ??? And on and on it goes. Roman Senator and Historian Tacitus - wrote records of Jesus' trial and crucifixion: rejected.

You reject EVERYTHING which makes your opinion of not much value.

So how does anyone prove to your satisfaction that they were an eye-witness to any event in history whatsoever? Basically, they cant.

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Stratos Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 4725	Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Reply #257 - Nov 6^th, 2015 at 11:52am mariacostel wrote on Nov 6^th, 2015 at 11:49am: Roman Senator and Historian Tacitus Ooh you haven't mentioned that. Got a link, that sounds interesting.
Back to top	Pete Waldo wrote on Jan 15^th, 2014 at 11:24pm: Thus killing those Canaanite babies while they were still innocent, was a particularly merciful act IP Logged

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Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse.
Reply #258 - Nov 6^th, 2015 at 12:08pm

mariacostel wrote on Nov 3^rd, 2015 at 10:18am:

Stratos wrote on Nov 3^rd, 2015 at 10:09am:

mariacostel wrote on Nov 3^rd, 2015 at 8:15am:

Now if you can PROVE Christianity wrong then you have a point, but until that time you have to accept that perhaps it is true and it is YOU than needs to have kids taken away from.

There are no primary sources that Jesus even existed, let alone did all the things that were written in the Bible.

Well now you are just seeking to be dense - and succeeding. The proof of Jesus' existence is enormous and is accepted as fact by historians. There are plenty of eye-witness accounts.

If you want to debate the topic of religion don't start by bringing in such obvious nonsense.

Just a reprint of Maria's claim ... many many posts later we have Maria digging her pit..
Will she dig deeper ... or will she admit herself wrong ... or will she disappear and a new entity arise out of Maria's ashes. Maybe next time a tranny named fred .

Popcorn anyone ?

the thread continues.

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____ Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 33410 Australia Gender:	Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Reply #259 - Nov 6^th, 2015 at 12:33pm mariacostel wrote on Nov 6^th, 2015 at 12:22pm: The debating deflection is the battlefield equivalent of the surrender. http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1446723973/30#41 Is this Mary hosting a white flag?
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Phemanderac

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Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse.
Reply #260 - Nov 6^th, 2015 at 12:48pm

mariacostel wrote on Nov 6^th, 2015 at 11:33am:

Phemanderac wrote on Nov 6^th, 2015 at 11:21am:

mariacostel wrote on Nov 6^th, 2015 at 11:14am:

Using eye-witnesses as your source material still makes your book 'eye-witness'.

Nope!

It is a "secondary source" at best... I am surprised that you did not know that.

So, an eye-witness account only matters if the person writes it themselves? So a ghost-written 'auto-biography' is a complete lie? Do we have to discard any and all evidence and information pertaining to a person unless it was self-written by an eye-witness?

Show me where I said that? If the best you can do is erroneously extrapolate from what is actually said to totally change the meaning, or, add to the actual meaning, then clearly, you are losing ground.

Somebody writing an eyewitness account that is reported to them is referred to as a secondary source, no more no less...

The accuracy of what is said is open to exactly the same standards of evidence though, as if it were a direct account from an eye witness.

Are you saying that all eye witness accounts then are 100% accurate and honest and should need no further evidence...

Peter Garret's autobiography would be a good example, would you believe everything in that told by a secondary source?

mariacostel wrote on Nov 6^th, 2015 at 11:33am:

This was what I meant by continually raising the standard of proof bar so that you can happily exclude any material you don't like. And that is why historians don't have the problems you do.

I am not excluding any material, as such, whatever you meant is clearly wrong regarding raising some standard of proof...

Historians have generally agreed that someone name Jesus lived... By definition though, that is by consensus as there is not substantial or measurable evidence. That is why you're having so much trouble providing evidence.

I don't have a problem with accepting the existence (and eventual snuffing out of that existence) of some bloke named Jesus, as a historical figure, that is the extent of what historians generally agree on after all. The mythology though, is just that, myth. Unproven and, arguably unable to be proven.

The actual standard of proof bar (despite your angry protestations) has not been moved one iota by anyone here, well, arguably except by you lowering it for your own ends...

Once again, I will finish with, please stop re framing what I actually say to mean something other than what I actually meant to say, it diminishes any credibility you may demonstrate with other arguments... I have asked you this several times now, I am starting to wonder if being disrespectful is a deliberate choice you make!

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On the 26th of January you are all invited to celebrate little white penal day...

"They're not rules as such, more like guidelines" Pirates of the Caribbean..

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Stratos

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Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse.
Reply #261 - Nov 6^th, 2015 at 1:40pm

mariacostel wrote on Nov 6^th, 2015 at 11:49am:

Roman Senator and Historian Tacitus - wrote records of Jesus' trial and crucifixion

If you thank that is what he wrote (oh and by the way it is not even POSSIBLE Tacitus was an eyewitness Wink

) then you have clearly not read it.

Your research is beyond pathetic if you think Tacitus' words show evidence of a trial or crucifixion Grin

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Pete Waldo wrote on Jan 15^th, 2014 at 11:24pm:

Thus killing those Canaanite babies while they were still innocent, was a particularly merciful act

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Phemanderac Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 3507 Gender:	Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Reply #262 - Nov 6^th, 2015 at 1:47pm I am pretty sure that Livy did not mention Jesus...
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it_is_the_light Gold Member Offline Christ Light Posts: 41434 The Pyramid of LIGHT Gender:	Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Reply #263 - Nov 6^th, 2015 at 1:50pm
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Ajax Gold Member Offline CO2 has never controlled temperature on Earth Posts: 10982 Australia Gender:	Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse. Reply #264 - Nov 6^th, 2015 at 2:14pm Whether some on here like it or not, the bible apart from being a religious book is also a history book.
Back to top	1. There has never been a more serious assault on our standard of living than Anthropogenic Global Warming..Ajax 2. "One hour of freedom is worth more than 40 years of slavery & prison" Regas Feraeos IP Logged

Stratos

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Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse.
Reply #265 - Nov 6^th, 2015 at 2:23pm

Ajax wrote on Nov 6^th, 2015 at 2:14pm:

Whether some on here like it or not, the bible apart from being a religious book is also a history book.

A mythologised version of history maybe. There are some things that we know happened, but there are definitely things that happened contrary to it. Certain stories have value as allegory though, despite the fact they obviously never happened (Noah's flood etc.)

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Pete Waldo wrote on Jan 15^th, 2014 at 11:24pm:

Thus killing those Canaanite babies while they were still innocent, was a particularly merciful act

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Ajax

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Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse.
Reply #266 - Nov 6^th, 2015 at 2:28pm

Stratos wrote on Nov 6^th, 2015 at 2:23pm:

Ajax wrote on Nov 6^th, 2015 at 2:14pm:

Whether some on here like it or not, the bible apart from being a religious book is also a history book.

A mythologised version of history maybe. There are some things that we know happened, but there are definitely things that happened contrary to it. Certain stories have value as allegory though, despite the fact they obviously never happened (Noah's flood etc.)

You denying the great flood never happened doesn't mean that it never happened.

Its your opinion and that it.

Care to explain how fish fossils have been found on top of mountains?

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1. There has never been a more serious assault on our standard of living than Anthropogenic Global Warming..Ajax
2. "One hour of freedom is worth more than 40 years of slavery & prison" Regas Feraeos

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Phemanderac

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Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse.
Reply #267 - Nov 6^th, 2015 at 2:40pm

I am pretty sure we have had some big floods throughout history, just not quite to the same biblical proportions...

Of course, a huge flood wiping out the most of the "known" population would be a story retold with a fair degree of ad-don exaggeration, thus the term myth being applied...

There might even have been a big boat built by some bloke and filled with family and a bunch of pets, but, two of EVERY animal (which, in modern terms and understanding would actually be two of every species which blows the numbers through the roof), how would we not have found a Boat that big definitely by now?

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On the 26th of January you are all invited to celebrate little white penal day...

"They're not rules as such, more like guidelines" Pirates of the Caribbean..

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Lisa Jones

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Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse.
Reply #268 - Nov 6^th, 2015 at 2:41pm

mothra wrote on Nov 6^th, 2015 at 9:28am:

mariacostel wrote on Nov 6^th, 2015 at 9:12am:

Stratos wrote on Nov 6^th, 2015 at 8:49am:

mariacostel wrote on Nov 6^th, 2015 at 8:43am:

And I repeat the fact that professional historians do not agree with you.

Most historians think Jesus existed, but that isn't your claim. Your claim was that there are lots of eyewitness accounts, which is 100% wrong.

The section YOU linked from Luke demonstrates that it in fact only claiming to be a third hand account.

Read your Bible and stop breaking the ninth commandment.

And that is your problem. Unless something can be proven to YOUR satisfaction, you declare it 100% wrong. Mark's Gospel was apparently written using Peter as the source - an Eye Witness. Johns Gospel was written by... john the disciple, an eye witness.

You demand a standard of proof that is impossible for historical documents. Luke was writing on behalf of other eye-witnesses and says as much.

I defy you to prove the existence of any BC era figure using your methodology.

And again, historians don't have the problem you do.

Most historians believe the Gospels were not written by eyewitnesses.

What a load of $hit.

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If I let myself be bought then I am no longer free.

HYPATIA - Greek philosopher, mathematician and astronomer (370 - 415)

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Stratos

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Re: Religious Teaching Is Child Abuse.
Reply #269 - Nov 6^th, 2015 at 2:42pm

Ajax wrote on Nov 6^th, 2015 at 2:28pm:

You denying the great flood never happened doesn't mean that it never happened.

There is nothing you would expect to find if there was a worldwide flood. A worldwide deluge would leave very clear evidence, but does not appear that way.

Ajax wrote on Nov 6^th, 2015 at 2:28pm:

Care to explain how fish fossils have been found on top of mountains?

tectonic uplift. Next.

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Pete Waldo wrote on Jan 15^th, 2014 at 11:24pm:

Thus killing those Canaanite babies while they were still innocent, was a particularly merciful act

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