Australian Politics Forum - Will absolute socialism work in Australia

Maqqa

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Will absolute socialism work in Australia
Nov 5^th, 2015 at 10:04am

To understand where the left is heading with their "bleeding hearts" policy - everyone need to understand the foundation of their thinking

It is steep in socialism and communism

The link below is a start on a comparison between socialism, communism and capitalism

http://www.webpages.uidaho.edu/engl_258/lecture%20notes/capitalism%20etc%20defin...

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Kat Gold Member Offline Socialism IS the answer. Posts: 17709 Everywhere and no-where Gender:	Re: Will absolute socialism work in Australia Reply #1 - Nov 5^th, 2015 at 10:09am I've not seen anyone here supporting absolute socialism. A socialist democracy, yes. It's what we NEED, whether you can see it or not. But absolute socialism is no better than rampant unregulated capitalism. And for surprisingly similar reasons.
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Maqqa

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Re: Will absolute socialism work in Australia
Reply #2 - Nov 5^th, 2015 at 10:15am

Kat wrote on Nov 5^th, 2015 at 10:09am:

I've not seen anyone here supporting absolute socialism.

A socialist democracy, yes. It's what we NEED, whether you can see it or not.

But absolute socialism is no better than rampant unregulated capitalism.

And for surprisingly similar reasons.

Have a look at the Australian Greens and their policies

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Kiron22 Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 896 Gender:	Re: Will absolute socialism work in Australia Reply #3 - Nov 5^th, 2015 at 10:17am "socialism refers to state ownership of common property, or state ownership of the means of production. " Wrong.
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Kiron22

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Re: Will absolute socialism work in Australia
Reply #4 - Nov 5^th, 2015 at 10:18am

Maqqa wrote on Nov 5^th, 2015 at 10:15am:

Have a look at the Australian Greens and their policies

What?
Literally nothing about the Greens is "full socialism" they are a typical orthodox Keynesian Social-Democratic party. In their policy platform it literally says the free-market is the most important role in combating climate change.

How lame.

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Maqqa

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Re: Will absolute socialism work in Australia
Reply #5 - Nov 5^th, 2015 at 10:26am

Kiron22 wrote on Nov 5^th, 2015 at 10:18am:

Maqqa wrote on Nov 5^th, 2015 at 10:15am:

Have a look at the Australian Greens and their policies

What?
Literally nothing about the Greens is "full socialism" they are a typical orthodox Keynesian Social-Democratic party. In their policy platform it literally says the free-market is the most important role in combating climate change.

How lame.

I didn't say read their rhetoric - I said look at their policies

This is their opening line on the economy

"Only the Greens have the guts to stand up to billionaire companies so we can manage our economy in a way that cares for people and the environment."

What's a billionaire company? Is it just bad Engwrish?

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bogarde73 Gold Member Offline Anti-Global & Contra Mundum Posts: 18443 Gender:	Re: Will absolute socialism work in Australia Reply #6 - Nov 5^th, 2015 at 10:30am It's academic anyway. The global financial system will not allow even an approximation of absolute socialism.
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Bam Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 21905 Gender:	Re: Will absolute socialism work in Australia Reply #7 - Nov 5^th, 2015 at 10:35am bogarde73 wrote on Nov 5^th, 2015 at 10:30am: It's academic anyway. The global financial system will not allow even an approximation of absolute socialism. Rich and powerful.
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Maqqa

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Re: Will absolute socialism work in Australia
Reply #8 - Nov 5^th, 2015 at 10:35am

bogarde73 wrote on Nov 5^th, 2015 at 10:30am:

It's academic anyway. The global financial system will not allow even an approximation of absolute socialism.

Agreed if you are looking at control by majority

However we've seen these minority groups increasing their share if the political pie which then influence the balance of power e.g. Labor/Green

It is important we understand the difference between a Greens group and Independent group - one is a socialist

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Grappler Deep State Feller

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Re: Will absolute socialism work in Australia
Reply #9 - Nov 5^th, 2015 at 12:04pm

I would think not - a proper balance of socialism and capitalism has worked reasonably well - well, sometimes - in Australia, so with the proper fine tuning it might well work.

Total control over every part of the economy, resources, industry etc by the State is extreme, and never works in reality. On the other hand unconstrained and uncontrolled capitalism has never worked, either.

It's a balance, and that balance is currently way out of whack due to poor management by successive governments addicted to their ideologies.

As I've said before, under the 'socialist' concept so abhorred by the 'right' these days, of an Awards system etc - BOTH sides knew within reason what costs and profits could be generated, and thus both could manage for prosperity more easily than under the current hodge-podge of agreements that actually, in most cases, cost more than paying award rates.

You can't seriously tell me that an electricity supplier paying a contractor $90 to read one meter is a cost saving measure - when it used to cost around $20 for an employee to do it. When Telstra 'out-sourced' line work etc, the guy who set up the phone here said he was doing less work for more money, after being laid off as an employee and reinstated as a contractor.

As someone said - sometimes you need to do a System Restore......

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Kiron22

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Re: Will absolute socialism work in Australia
Reply #10 - Nov 5^th, 2015 at 12:36pm

Honestly think that Socialism shouldn't be marred by the poor Stalinist systems and their ripoffs of the past for several reasons.

- They in no way conformed to Socialist theory or material conditions outlined by Marx.

- Marx envisioned Socialism as a system that would appear as a system when Capitalist contradiction basically causes an implosion of the system (which may happen at any crisis in the future)

- The time table for Marx's predictions have not even hit yet (but looking at global economic statistics we are heading there but not for at least another 30-40 years will we hit serious crisis as predicted by Marx using current global economic statistics) it is also likely that WW2 and WW1 delayed his predictions by decades because of the huge destruction of wealth and population.

- Socialism is a futurist system which is built on high-tech technology, robotics and computing, Marx in the 1850s outlined this with OCC.

- Lenin incorrectly identified Imperialism as "late stage Capitalism" which of course served the period he was in, but doesn't actually match Marx's economic critique in Das Kapital in which he identified robotics and automation as late-stage Capitalism.

- The Soviet Union even if it cared about Socialist theory seriously (it didn't, Stalin turned it into a thinly veiled Neo-Russian Empire) didn't exist in a time of computer modelling or fiber communications or high tech computing (your computer today is more powerful than most computers in the world combined when the USSR existed)

If you wanted to do a planned Socialist economy (not that Socialism = Planning), I honestly think it would be possible. How you would do it is use AI to simulate a market based on consumer inputs tracked over a period of time in a real market and then distribute basic goods based on those models, you would then have consumer goods and new products produced based on a sort of digital crowdsourcing model in which data again is input back into the system to make predictions and calculations on production.

One must also remember a Socialist society is largely an anti-materialism society based on sustainability, so the sheer scale of goods produced would never actually have to come anywhere near Capitalism.

On another point, once singularity (exponential explosion of AI intelligence after self-awareness) occurs, Capitalism is ****ed and we will in most likeliness move towards a more planned system if we like it or not.

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innocentbystander. Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 4723 Gender:	Re: Will absolute socialism work in Australia Reply #11 - Nov 5^th, 2015 at 12:46pm Socialism is simply Revenge of the Losers.
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perceptions_now

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Re: Will absolute socialism work in Australia
Reply #12 - Nov 5^th, 2015 at 12:56pm

Q) Will absolute socialism, now work in Australia OR anywhere else?
A) No!

Q) Will the Liberal version of Capitalism, now work in Australia OR anywhere else ?
A) No!

Q) Will absolute Communism, now work in Australia OR anywhere else ?
A) No!

Q) Will any of the "old style isms", now work in Australia OR anywhere else?
A) No!

Basically, we will have to move past the "old style Economics" of both Liberal & Labor and start anew, with something that is fair to all or we will just do more damage, than is otherwise coming, anyhow!

Finally, that damage is coming, irrespective of what the Liberal & Labor Politicians may say, which is simply full of self-serving CRAP!
Credible
Reliable
Abundant
Paradoxes

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Swagman Gold Member Offline Beware of cheap imitations...... Posts: 15095 Illawarra NSW Gender:	Re: Will absolute socialism work in Australia Reply #13 - Nov 5^th, 2015 at 12:58pm Kat wrote on Nov 5^th, 2015 at 10:09am: I've not seen anyone here supporting absolute socialism. ..........
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bogarde73

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Re: Will absolute socialism work in Australia
Reply #14 - Nov 5^th, 2015 at 1:04pm

Grappler Deep State Feller wrote on Nov 5^th, 2015 at 12:04pm:

I would think not - a proper balance of socialism and capitalism has worked reasonably well - well, sometimes - in Australia, so with the proper fine tuning it might well work.

Total control over every part of the economy, resources, industry etc by the State is extreme, and never works in reality. On the other hand unconstrained and uncontrolled capitalism has never worked, either.

It's a balance, and that balance is currently way out of whack due to poor management by successive governments addicted to their ideologies.

As I've said before, under the 'socialist' concept so abhorred by the 'right' these days, of an Awards system etc - BOTH sides knew within reason what costs and profits could be generated, and thus both could manage for prosperity more easily than under the current hodge-podge of agreements that actually, in most cases, cost more than paying award rates.

You can't seriously tell me that an electricity supplier paying a contractor $90 to read one meter is a cost saving measure - when it used to cost around $20 for an employee to do it. When Telstra 'out-sourced' line work etc, the guy who set up the phone here said he was doing less work for more money, after being laid off as an employee and reinstated as a contractor.

As someone said - sometimes you need to do a System Restore......

That's it Grappler, a balanced system, what we used to call a mixed economy I think.
As to whether the system is currently "out of whack", that's a variable circumstance.
Take the Awards system, it's arguable that that is "out of whack" in terms of being too inflexible in the current & future global economy. It was fine 30 years ago.
But basically I agree with you.

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