Australian Politics Forum - Will absolute socialism work in Australia

BatteriesNotIncluded

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Re: Will absolute socialism work in Australia
Reply #30 - Nov 5^th, 2015 at 2:36pm

Maqqa wrote on Nov 5^th, 2015 at 2:16pm:

Kiron22 wrote on Nov 5^th, 2015 at 2:10pm:

Muttley wrote on Nov 5^th, 2015 at 2:01pm:

Socialism wouldn't work because the majority either admire success or are successful. Socialists, for the most part, hate success because they cannot aspire to it themselves.

Thats funny, because Engels was a rich factory owner, Lenin led an entire country and won a war against the rest of the world. Both pretty successful.

Socialists understand that Capitalism is unsustainable and strive to build a better future and society. While all you care about is personal wealth, Socialists care about humanity.

Lenin was protesting against a monarchy in late 1800's

Engels/Marx are both philosophers of the year 1850's - enough said

eNOUGH SAID FROM THE PRIVATE SCHOOLED IDIOT WHO REFUSES TO ELABORATE UNDER THE DIRECTION OF TOFFEE NOSED WEIRDOS WHO ALL INHERITED WEALTH Grin

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*Sure....they're anti competitive as any subsidised job is. It wouldn't be there without the tax payer. Very damned difficult for a brainwashed collectivist to understand that I know.... (swaggy) *

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BatteriesNotIncluded

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Re: Will absolute socialism work in Australia
Reply #31 - Nov 5^th, 2015 at 2:37pm

Maqqa wrote on Nov 5^th, 2015 at 2:12pm:

Muttley wrote on Nov 5^th, 2015 at 2:01pm:

Socialism wouldn't work because the majority either admire success or are successful. Socialists, for the most part, hate success because they cannot aspire to it themselves.

Most socialist society eventually ends up as a capitalist society

The exception is Norway - but they have massive oilfields to fund the socialist policies

WHERE DOES MONEY COME FROM?

THANX FOR PLAYING Cheesy

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*Sure....they're anti competitive as any subsidised job is. It wouldn't be there without the tax payer. Very damned difficult for a brainwashed collectivist to understand that I know.... (swaggy) *

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BatteriesNotIncluded Gold Member Offline MediocrityNET: because people died for this! Posts: 26966	Re: Will absolute socialism work in Australia Reply #32 - Nov 5^th, 2015 at 2:40pm innocentbystander. wrote on Nov 5^th, 2015 at 12:46pm: Socialism is simply Revenge of the Losers. SOCIALISM IS SIMPLY MONEY: you should read a book sometime
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innocentbystander.

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Re: Will absolute socialism work in Australia
Reply #33 - Nov 5^th, 2015 at 3:04pm

Kat wrote on Nov 5^th, 2015 at 1:22pm:

innocentbystander. wrote on Nov 5^th, 2015 at 12:46pm:

Socialism is simply Revenge of the Losers. Grin

And once again you demonstrate your ignorance on the matter.

Your deranged idea of the perfect society is one where you can murder all the LNP voters and replace them with unemployed Muslims and Africans. Cheesy

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mariacostel

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Re: Will absolute socialism work in Australia
Reply #34 - Nov 5^th, 2015 at 3:08pm

Kiron22 wrote on Nov 5^th, 2015 at 12:36pm:

Honestly think that Socialism shouldn't be marred by the poor Stalinist systems and their ripoffs of the past for several reasons.

- They in no way conformed to Socialist theory or material conditions outlined by Marx.

- Marx envisioned Socialism as a system that would appear as a system when Capitalist contradiction basically causes an implosion of the system (which may happen at any crisis in the future)

- The time table for Marx's predictions have not even hit yet (but looking at global economic statistics we are heading there but not for at least another 30-40 years will we hit serious crisis as predicted by Marx using current global economic statistics) it is also likely that WW2 and WW1 delayed his predictions by decades because of the huge destruction of wealth and population.

- Socialism is a futurist system which is built on high-tech technology, robotics and computing, Marx in the 1850s outlined this with OCC.

- Lenin incorrectly identified Imperialism as "late stage Capitalism" which of course served the period he was in, but doesn't actually match Marx's economic critique in Das Kapital in which he identified robotics and automation as late-stage Capitalism.

- The Soviet Union even if it cared about Socialist theory seriously (it didn't, Stalin turned it into a thinly veiled Neo-Russian Empire) didn't exist in a time of computer modelling or fiber communications or high tech computing (your computer today is more powerful than most computers in the world combined when the USSR existed)

If you wanted to do a planned Socialist economy (not that Socialism = Planning), I honestly think it would be possible. How you would do it is use AI to simulate a market based on consumer inputs tracked over a period of time in a real market and then distribute basic goods based on those models, you would then have consumer goods and new products produced based on a sort of digital crowdsourcing model in which data again is input back into the system to make predictions and calculations on production.

One must also remember a Socialist society is largely an anti-materialism society based on sustainability, so the sheer scale of goods produced would never actually have to come anywhere near Capitalism.

On another point, once singularity (exponential explosion of AI intelligence after self-awareness) occurs, Capitalism is ****ed and we will in most likeliness move towards a more planned system if we like it or not.

Quoting Marx and Lenin doesn't exactly enhance your credibility. And supporting 'planned economies' is laughable since they were one of the biggest failures in history. Communism fails because there are very few retards like you. Everyone else wants choice, opportunity, freedom and good food.

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innocentbystander.

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Re: Will absolute socialism work in Australia
Reply #35 - Nov 5^th, 2015 at 3:08pm

Dnarever wrote on Nov 5^th, 2015 at 1:32pm:

innocentbystander. wrote on Nov 5^th, 2015 at 12:46pm:

Socialism is simply Revenge of the Losers. Grin

Which party is currently working to increase taxes and being defended by people saying that it is ok because the state will look after the less well off via welfare ?

Isn't it true that the current Liberals are heading in the socialist high taxing high compensation direction ?

Yes I would say that true conservatism is dead, big government and endless welfare is now entrenched, there is no going back, its all downhill from here, or uphill if you dream of a commie utopia Sad

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BatteriesNotIncluded

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Re: Will absolute socialism work in Australia
Reply #36 - Nov 5^th, 2015 at 3:10pm

innocentbystander. wrote on Nov 5^th, 2015 at 3:04pm:

Kat wrote on Nov 5^th, 2015 at 1:22pm:

innocentbystander. wrote on Nov 5^th, 2015 at 12:46pm:

Socialism is simply Revenge of the Losers. Grin

And once again you demonstrate your ignorance on the matter.

Your deranged idea of the perfect society is one where you can murder all the LNP voters and replace them with unemployed Muslims and Africans. Cheesy

Your idea of a perfect society is exactly that: an idea that exists in your racist head Cheesy

Do you smoke the crack-pipe and play war games with your w****** tryhard mates Shocked

... you know- the ones where you are all talk and talk and talk and talk and talk until the wall looks sexy Roll Eyes

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*Sure....they're anti competitive as any subsidised job is. It wouldn't be there without the tax payer. Very damned difficult for a brainwashed collectivist to understand that I know.... (swaggy) *

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BatteriesNotIncluded

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Re: Will absolute socialism work in Australia
Reply #37 - Nov 5^th, 2015 at 3:12pm

innocentbystander. wrote on Nov 5^th, 2015 at 3:08pm:

Dnarever wrote on Nov 5^th, 2015 at 1:32pm:

innocentbystander. wrote on Nov 5^th, 2015 at 12:46pm:

Socialism is simply Revenge of the Losers. Grin

Which party is currently working to increase taxes and being defended by people saying that it is ok because the state will look after the less well off via welfare ?

Isn't it true that the current Liberals are heading in the socialist high taxing high compensation direction ?

Yes I would say that true conservatism is dead, big government and endless welfare is now entrenched, there is no going back, its all downhill from here, or uphill if you dream of a commie utopia Sad

You're an idiot: define 'true conservatism'... you can't because you're a smokin' smoker Grin

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*Sure....they're anti competitive as any subsidised job is. It wouldn't be there without the tax payer. Very damned difficult for a brainwashed collectivist to understand that I know.... (swaggy) *

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BatteriesNotIncluded

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Re: Will absolute socialism work in Australia
Reply #38 - Nov 5^th, 2015 at 3:13pm

mariacostel wrote on Nov 5^th, 2015 at 3:08pm:

Kiron22 wrote on Nov 5^th, 2015 at 12:36pm:

Honestly think that Socialism shouldn't be marred by the poor Stalinist systems and their ripoffs of the past for several reasons.

- They in no way conformed to Socialist theory or material conditions outlined by Marx.

- Marx envisioned Socialism as a system that would appear as a system when Capitalist contradiction basically causes an implosion of the system (which may happen at any crisis in the future)

- The time table for Marx's predictions have not even hit yet (but looking at global economic statistics we are heading there but not for at least another 30-40 years will we hit serious crisis as predicted by Marx using current global economic statistics) it is also likely that WW2 and WW1 delayed his predictions by decades because of the huge destruction of wealth and population.

- Socialism is a futurist system which is built on high-tech technology, robotics and computing, Marx in the 1850s outlined this with OCC.

- Lenin incorrectly identified Imperialism as "late stage Capitalism" which of course served the period he was in, but doesn't actually match Marx's economic critique in Das Kapital in which he identified robotics and automation as late-stage Capitalism.

- The Soviet Union even if it cared about Socialist theory seriously (it didn't, Stalin turned it into a thinly veiled Neo-Russian Empire) didn't exist in a time of computer modelling or fiber communications or high tech computing (your computer today is more powerful than most computers in the world combined when the USSR existed)

If you wanted to do a planned Socialist economy (not that Socialism = Planning), I honestly think it would be possible. How you would do it is use AI to simulate a market based on consumer inputs tracked over a period of time in a real market and then distribute basic goods based on those models, you would then have consumer goods and new products produced based on a sort of digital crowdsourcing model in which data again is input back into the system to make predictions and calculations on production.

One must also remember a Socialist society is largely an anti-materialism society based on sustainability, so the sheer scale of goods produced would never actually have to come anywhere near Capitalism.

On another point, once singularity (exponential explosion of AI intelligence after self-awareness) occurs, Capitalism is ****ed and we will in most likeliness move towards a more planned system if we like it or not.

Quoting Marx and Lenin doesn't exactly enhance your credibility. And supporting 'planned economies' is laughable since they were one of the biggest failures in history. Communism fails because there are very few retards like you.

Everyone else

wants choice, opportunity, freedom and good food.

Haven't travelled much have ya Cheesy

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*Sure....they're anti competitive as any subsidised job is. It wouldn't be there without the tax payer. Very damned difficult for a brainwashed collectivist to understand that I know.... (swaggy) *

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Kytro

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Re: Will absolute socialism work in Australia
Reply #39 - Nov 5^th, 2015 at 5:45pm

Muttley wrote on Nov 5^th, 2015 at 2:01pm:

Socialism wouldn't work because the majority either admire success or are successful. Socialists, for the most part, hate success because they cannot aspire to it themselves.

Success is a sign you can game whatever system you are part of, be is a dictatorship, communist, capitalist or something else. The idea there is so sort of moral positive equivalence with success is utter crap.

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Kat

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Re: Will absolute socialism work in Australia
Reply #40 - Nov 5^th, 2015 at 5:54pm

innocentbystander. wrote on Nov 5^th, 2015 at 3:04pm:

Kat wrote on Nov 5^th, 2015 at 1:22pm:

innocentbystander. wrote on Nov 5^th, 2015 at 12:46pm:

Socialism is simply Revenge of the Losers. Grin

And once again you demonstrate your ignorance on the matter.

Your deranged idea of the perfect society is one where you can murder all the LNP voters and replace them with unemployed Muslims and Africans. Cheesy

You are a twat.

Grow up.

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mariacostel

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Re: Will absolute socialism work in Australia
Reply #41 - Nov 5^th, 2015 at 6:07pm

Kytro wrote on Nov 5^th, 2015 at 5:45pm:

Muttley wrote on Nov 5^th, 2015 at 2:01pm:

Socialism wouldn't work because the majority either admire success or are successful. Socialists, for the most part, hate success because they cannot aspire to it themselves.

Success is a sign you can game whatever system you are part of, be is a dictatorship, communist, capitalist or something else. The idea there is so sort of moral positive equivalence with success is utter crap.

I think that is a bit simplisticly stated. Sure, success is not necessarily evidence of a moral position, but nor is the opposite true - which is often stated on here. Success does sometimes flow from moral and ethical positioning, but is not always the case or even often. Success is often the product of sheer dumb luck!

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mariacostel

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Re: Will absolute socialism work in Australia
Reply #42 - Nov 5^th, 2015 at 6:08pm

Kat wrote on Nov 5^th, 2015 at 5:54pm:

innocentbystander. wrote on Nov 5^th, 2015 at 3:04pm:

Kat wrote on Nov 5^th, 2015 at 1:22pm:

innocentbystander. wrote on Nov 5^th, 2015 at 12:46pm:

Socialism is simply Revenge of the Losers. Grin

And once again you demonstrate your ignorance on the matter.

Your deranged idea of the perfect society is one where you can murder all the LNP voters and replace them with unemployed Muslims and Africans. Cheesy

You are a twat.

Grow up.

You've already stated that LNP supporters should be killed. He is completely accurate. You are lucky that liberals are far more moral and ethical than you could probably even conceive. If we weren't, you'd be dead or in jail long ago.

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BatteriesNotIncluded

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Re: Will absolute socialism work in Australia
Reply #43 - Nov 5^th, 2015 at 6:11pm

mariacostel wrote on Nov 5^th, 2015 at 6:07pm:

Kytro wrote on Nov 5^th, 2015 at 5:45pm:

Muttley wrote on Nov 5^th, 2015 at 2:01pm:

Socialism wouldn't work because the majority either admire success or are successful. Socialists, for the most part, hate success because they cannot aspire to it themselves.

Success is a sign you can game whatever system you are part of, be is a dictatorship, communist, capitalist or something else. The idea there is so sort of moral positive equivalence with success is utter crap.

I think that is a bit simplisticly stated. Sure, success is not necessarily evidence of a moral position, but nor is the opposite true - which is often stated on here. Success does sometimes flow from moral and ethical positioning, but is not always the case or even often. Success is often the product of sheer dumb luck!

success is often inherited Cheesy

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*Sure....they're anti competitive as any subsidised job is. It wouldn't be there without the tax payer. Very damned difficult for a brainwashed collectivist to understand that I know.... (swaggy) *

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Postmodern Trendoid III

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Re: Will absolute socialism work in Australia
Reply #44 - Nov 5^th, 2015 at 6:40pm

Kiron22 wrote on Nov 5^th, 2015 at 12:36pm:

Honestly think that Socialism shouldn't be marred by the poor Stalinist systems and their ripoffs of the past for several reasons.

- They in no way conformed to Socialist theory or material conditions outlined by Marx.

- Marx envisioned Socialism as a system that would appear as a system when Capitalist contradiction basically causes an implosion of the system (which may happen at any crisis in the future)

He wanted the workers to take control of the means of production by force, and not wait for any 'contradictions'. There was then to be, in Marx's idealistic vision, a temporary dictatorship of the workers. Then next stage was then communism, where state borders wither away and each person works according to their needs and ability.

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