Australian Politics Forum - Is fairness a great driver of economic growth..

mariacostel

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Re: Is fairness a great driver of economic growth..
Reply #15 - Nov 9^th, 2015 at 2:59pm

Kytro wrote on Nov 9^th, 2015 at 11:49am:

mariacostel wrote on Nov 9^th, 2015 at 10:39am:

Money is one of our most powerful motivators. Yes passion and vision are essential, but for most people that passion and vision is about making money. Those who don't think that way either already have money or are getting it from another source.

Making enough money to be comfortable it a motivator, but beyond that it really only does tell part of the story.

I could easily make more money than I do, but I value my time too much to do so.

The thing is people often think money is what motivates them, but it's not in many cases.

One study found that if people believed the work was valued they would work for significantly less money.

People want to feel valued and appreciated and as though their work has some meaning. People who don't are less productive.

It's not that money is unimportant, it's that is only a part of what motivates people to work, and certainly to work hard. People at the top end are really working for the status money brings.

They are still working for the money. I didn't say that money was the end-all, but it is a step to virtually everything else as well as being an end in its own right for many.

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Kytro

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Re: Is fairness a great driver of economic growth..
Reply #16 - Nov 9^th, 2015 at 3:33pm

mariacostel wrote on Nov 9^th, 2015 at 2:59pm:

They are still working for the money. I didn't say that money was the end-all, but it is a step to virtually everything else as well as being an end in its own right for many.

My point was mostly that use money as proxy for motivation isn't accurate. It's especially bad if you want to improve productivity. Paying people more necessarily increase people's motivation.

Even if you are very well paid, you are not likely to be satisfied if the job isn't leading in the direction you want. people leave higher paying jobs for lower paying jobs if they believe it will suit their agenda at the time.

I'm not in any way saying money isn't a motivation, but people have a tendency to dismiss other factors as insignificant when they certainly are not. It's a shame because business could improve worker happiness and productivity for a much lower cost if they had the right culture.

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mariacostel

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Re: Is fairness a great driver of economic growth..
Reply #17 - Nov 9^th, 2015 at 3:49pm

Kytro wrote on Nov 9^th, 2015 at 3:33pm:

mariacostel wrote on Nov 9^th, 2015 at 2:59pm:

They are still working for the money. I didn't say that money was the end-all, but it is a step to virtually everything else as well as being an end in its own right for many.

My point was mostly that use money as proxy for motivation isn't accurate. It's especially bad if you want to improve productivity. Paying people more necessarily increase people's motivation.

Even if you are very well paid, you are not likely to be satisfied if the job isn't leading in the direction you want. people leave higher paying jobs for lower paying jobs if they believe it will suit their agenda at the time.

I'm not in any way saying money isn't a motivation, but people have a tendency to dismiss other factors as insignificant when they certainly are not. It's a shame because business could improve worker happiness and productivity for a much lower cost if they had the right culture.

Satisfaction being more important than money is the province of people who have plenty of the latter. Try telling a low-paid worker with 4 kids what is most important - job satisfaction or money.

The point is that motivations for business etc are varying, but money ranks top in the vast majority. And you don't think money is a motivation for productivity? See what happens when you pay workers on the basis of output rather than time in the office!

It seems very tasteless, but money is still the primary motivator behind employment, business and related activities. When it stops being the prime motivator it is usually because they have sufficient.

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Karnal

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Re: Is fairness a great driver of economic growth..
Reply #18 - Nov 9^th, 2015 at 3:57pm

mariacostel wrote on Nov 9^th, 2015 at 8:16am:

Grappler Deep State Feller wrote on Nov 9^th, 2015 at 8:02am:

Phemanderac wrote on Nov 9^th, 2015 at 6:27am:

Fairness and Equity are not part of the deal...

Nor is consistency, at least in our current economic system. A free market is the goal, yet, there needs to be some regulation as well apparently, meaning it is not truly a free market.

The quest for fairness will only drive economic growth backwards - ostensibly because those with the biggest slice of the pie presently do not want anyone else having a fair share... That is our current economic model, which has also become our social and spiritual model.... There is only the economy!

Politics of envy.... no uppity peasant should prosper mightily through hard work and commitment..

Hard work and commitment ends up making the peasant a NON-peasant.

Not at all. Hard work and commitment keeps peasants peasants. There are plenty of hard working peasants all over Asia, none of them with any hope of anything different.

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Karnal

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Re: Is fairness a great driver of economic growth..
Reply #19 - Nov 9^th, 2015 at 3:59pm

mariacostel wrote on Nov 9^th, 2015 at 3:49pm:

It seems very tasteless, but money is still the primary motivator behind employment, business and related activities. When it stops being the prime motivator it is usually because they have sufficient.

You've just provided the essential argument for equality, Maria.

Good work.

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Karnal

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Re: Is fairness a great driver of economic growth..
Reply #20 - Nov 9^th, 2015 at 4:15pm

Sun Tzu wrote on Nov 9^th, 2015 at 1:13pm:

Pantheon wrote on Nov 8^th, 2015 at 8:17am:

Is fairness and equality a great driver of economic growth.. I'm honestly not too sure..

If you do explain why?

Greed is the only driver of economic growth.

No, Sun Tzu, a growing population and an increase in productivity are the central factors in economic growth.

Greed is a marginal motivation. The big drivers in the economy are still food production, energy and construction. As a consumer, you can only eat, do and dwell so much. Economics is about the distribution of these things.

Financial services and intellectual property are different, but they are equally finite. One person on one income can only save so much money, or consume so much of a patented product like pharmaceuticals. The greed factor - marketing - is about turning more and more people onto such products, or about finding new uses for old products. Most growth in new drug patent applications is about finding new uses for existing drugs. Most growth in financial products is about poaching existing customers from other banks or hedge funds.

And so the world turns. The only real growth is in population, which increases demand.

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mariacostel

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Re: Is fairness a great driver of economic growth..
Reply #21 - Nov 9^th, 2015 at 4:47pm

Karnal wrote on Nov 9^th, 2015 at 4:15pm:

Sun Tzu wrote on Nov 9^th, 2015 at 1:13pm:

Pantheon wrote on Nov 8^th, 2015 at 8:17am:

Is fairness and equality a great driver of economic growth.. I'm honestly not too sure..

If you do explain why?

Greed is the only driver of economic growth.

No, Sun Tzu, a growing population and an increase in productivity are the central factors in economic growth.

Greed is a marginal motivation. The big drivers in the economy are still food production, energy and construction. As a consumer, you can only eat, do and dwell so much. Economics is about the distribution of these things.

Financial services and intellectual property are different, but they are equally finite. One person on one income can only save so much money, or consume so much of a patented product like pharmaceuticals. The greed factor - marketing - is about turning more and more people onto such products, or about finding new uses for old products. Most growth in new drug patent applications is about finding new uses for existing drugs. Most growth in financial products is about poaching existing customers from other banks or hedge funds.

And so the world turns. The only real growth is in population, which increases demand.

UNhinged misinterprets motivation, desire and passion for 'greed'. In his limited mindspace he equates achievement with greed.

UNhinged is not greedy.

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Grappler Deep State Feller

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Re: Is fairness a great driver of economic growth..
Reply #22 - Nov 9^th, 2015 at 5:51pm

mariacostel wrote on Nov 9^th, 2015 at 3:49pm:

Kytro wrote on Nov 9^th, 2015 at 3:33pm:

mariacostel wrote on Nov 9^th, 2015 at 2:59pm:

They are still working for the money. I didn't say that money was the end-all, but it is a step to virtually everything else as well as being an end in its own right for many.

My point was mostly that use money as proxy for motivation isn't accurate. It's especially bad if you want to improve productivity. Paying people more necessarily increase people's motivation.

Even if you are very well paid, you are not likely to be satisfied if the job isn't leading in the direction you want. people leave higher paying jobs for lower paying jobs if they believe it will suit their agenda at the time.

I'm not in any way saying money isn't a motivation, but people have a tendency to dismiss other factors as insignificant when they certainly are not. It's a shame because business could improve worker happiness and productivity for a much lower cost if they had the right culture.

Satisfaction being more important than money is the province of people who have plenty of the latter. Try telling a low-paid worker with 4 kids what is most important - job satisfaction or money.

The point is that motivations for business etc are varying, but money ranks top in the vast majority. And you don't think money is a motivation for productivity? See what happens when you pay workers on the basis of output rather than time in the office!

It seems very tasteless, but money is still the primary motivator behind employment, business and related activities. When it stops being the prime motivator it is usually because they have sufficient.

Now, now - we can't destroy the high-flying execs can we? You know what they say about plans - wouldn't give you ten cents for a truckload of 'em on the market.

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“Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.”
― John Adams

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Karnal

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Re: Is fairness a great driver of economic growth..
Reply #23 - Nov 9^th, 2015 at 5:59pm

mariacostel wrote on Nov 9^th, 2015 at 4:47pm:

Karnal wrote on Nov 9^th, 2015 at 4:15pm:

Sun Tzu wrote on Nov 9^th, 2015 at 1:13pm:

Pantheon wrote on Nov 8^th, 2015 at 8:17am:

Is fairness and equality a great driver of economic growth.. I'm honestly not too sure..

If you do explain why?

Greed is the only driver of economic growth.

No, Sun Tzu, a growing population and an increase in productivity are the central factors in economic growth.

Greed is a marginal motivation. The big drivers in the economy are still food production, energy and construction. As a consumer, you can only eat, do and dwell so much. Economics is about the distribution of these things.

Financial services and intellectual property are different, but they are equally finite. One person on one income can only save so much money, or consume so much of a patented product like pharmaceuticals. The greed factor - marketing - is about turning more and more people onto such products, or about finding new uses for old products. Most growth in new drug patent applications is about finding new uses for existing drugs. Most growth in financial products is about poaching existing customers from other banks or hedge funds.

And so the world turns. The only real growth is in population, which increases demand.

UNhinged misinterprets motivation, desire and passion for 'greed'. In his limited mindspace he equates achievement with greed.

UNhinged is not greedy.

I agree. Greed is a useful moral paradox, as Adam Smith intended, but it’s not the force that moves the economy.

Adam Smith’s focus was self interest, which is a better description of what motivates wage labourers or bean sellers who are, by and large, providing for their families.

Or how about housewives, dear? You keep a tidy home and make lovely meals for hubby, and you don’t get paid a thing.

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mariacostel

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Re: Is fairness a great driver of economic growth..
Reply #24 - Nov 9^th, 2015 at 6:04pm

Karnal wrote on Nov 9^th, 2015 at 5:59pm:

mariacostel wrote on Nov 9^th, 2015 at 4:47pm:

Karnal wrote on Nov 9^th, 2015 at 4:15pm:

Sun Tzu wrote on Nov 9^th, 2015 at 1:13pm:

Pantheon wrote on Nov 8^th, 2015 at 8:17am:

Is fairness and equality a great driver of economic growth.. I'm honestly not too sure..

If you do explain why?

Greed is the only driver of economic growth.

No, Sun Tzu, a growing population and an increase in productivity are the central factors in economic growth.

Greed is a marginal motivation. The big drivers in the economy are still food production, energy and construction. As a consumer, you can only eat, do and dwell so much. Economics is about the distribution of these things.

Financial services and intellectual property are different, but they are equally finite. One person on one income can only save so much money, or consume so much of a patented product like pharmaceuticals. The greed factor - marketing - is about turning more and more people onto such products, or about finding new uses for old products. Most growth in new drug patent applications is about finding new uses for existing drugs. Most growth in financial products is about poaching existing customers from other banks or hedge funds.

And so the world turns. The only real growth is in population, which increases demand.

UNhinged misinterprets motivation, desire and passion for 'greed'. In his limited mindspace he equates achievement with greed.

UNhinged is not greedy.

I agree. Greed is a useful moral paradox, as Adam Smith intended, but it’s not the force that moves the economy.

Adam Smith’s focus was self interest, which is a better description of what motivates wage labourers or bean sellers who are, by and large, providing for their families.

Or how about housewives, dear? You keep a tidy home and make lovely meals for hubby, and you don’t get paid a thing.

Dream on troll. It is only recent months that I have been doing most of the cooking and cleaning and only because I am, retired. Before then, we shared duties, although he is a better cleaner than cook (to say the least!)

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Karnal Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 96597	Re: Is fairness a great driver of economic growth.. Reply #25 - Nov 9^th, 2015 at 7:03pm I’ll bet he’s a good bin emptier too, Maria. He should leave the cooking to we ladies, eh? Men.
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He Man

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Re: Is fairness a great driver of economic growth..
Reply #26 - Nov 9^th, 2015 at 7:41pm

mariacostel wrote on Nov 9^th, 2015 at 6:04pm:

Karnal wrote on Nov 9^th, 2015 at 5:59pm:

mariacostel wrote on Nov 9^th, 2015 at 4:47pm:

Karnal wrote on Nov 9^th, 2015 at 4:15pm:

Sun Tzu wrote on Nov 9^th, 2015 at 1:13pm:

Pantheon wrote on Nov 8^th, 2015 at 8:17am:

Is fairness and equality a great driver of economic growth.. I'm honestly not too sure..

If you do explain why?

Greed is the only driver of economic growth.

No, Sun Tzu, a growing population and an increase in productivity are the central factors in economic growth.

Greed is a marginal motivation. The big drivers in the economy are still food production, energy and construction. As a consumer, you can only eat, do and dwell so much. Economics is about the distribution of these things.

Financial services and intellectual property are different, but they are equally finite. One person on one income can only save so much money, or consume so much of a patented product like pharmaceuticals. The greed factor - marketing - is about turning more and more people onto such products, or about finding new uses for old products. Most growth in new drug patent applications is about finding new uses for existing drugs. Most growth in financial products is about poaching existing customers from other banks or hedge funds.

And so the world turns. The only real growth is in population, which increases demand.

UNhinged misinterprets motivation, desire and passion for 'greed'. In his limited mindspace he equates achievement with greed.

UNhinged is not greedy.

I agree. Greed is a useful moral paradox, as Adam Smith intended, but it’s not the force that moves the economy.

Adam Smith’s focus was self interest, which is a better description of what motivates wage labourers or bean sellers who are, by and large, providing for their families.

Or how about housewives, dear? You keep a tidy home and make lovely meals for hubby, and you don’t get paid a thing.

Dream on troll. It is only recent months that I have been doing most of the cooking and cleaning and only because I am, retired. Before then, we shared duties, although he is a better cleaner than cook (to say the least!)

DNFTT

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aquascoot

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Re: Is fairness a great driver of economic growth..
Reply #27 - Nov 9^th, 2015 at 7:52pm

Probably for the first time in human history, people can exist, thrive and breed without evolutionary pressure to work hard and succeed.

This is a dangerous situation for mankind.

If the species is to improve, there has to be evolutionary pressure that favours those who seek to improve.

When you can have a dozen kids whilst existing on welfare, making no contribution, smoking pot and being a chode and a scrub.......then the human race must go backwards.

despite all the political theory and social theory and blah blah blah....i breed horses and we cross the BEST with the BEST and hope for the BEST. and that is simply NOT the way the modern human race is propagating .

Fairness drags us all down to the lowest common denominator.
It is a celebration of mediocrity.
Only free enterprise can save us and i fear it may already be too late Cheesy

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Karnal

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Re: Is fairness a great driver of economic growth..
Reply #28 - Nov 9^th, 2015 at 8:08pm

All free enterprise theories argue that trade brings fairness, Aquascoot. There is no ideological division between the objectives of economic theorists, from neo-liberal free-traders to Keynesian or even communist economic policies - ALL have fairness as an economic objective.

There is not one economic school of thought that advocates a divide between rich and poor. ALL economic thinkers, from Adam Smith to Karl Marx, have equality as an end, or a foundational principle, of their ideas.

This, essentially, is what the field of political-economy is all about: lifting everybody out of poverty and generating prosperity for all in equal measures.

This is what modern politics is all about - in theory, if not in practice.

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He Man

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Re: Is fairness a great driver of economic growth..
Reply #29 - Nov 9^th, 2015 at 8:24pm

mariacostel wrote on Nov 9^th, 2015 at 4:47pm:

Karnal wrote on Nov 9^th, 2015 at 4:15pm:

Sun Tzu wrote on Nov 9^th, 2015 at 1:13pm:

Pantheon wrote on Nov 8^th, 2015 at 8:17am:

Is fairness and equality a great driver of economic growth.. I'm honestly not too sure..

If you do explain why?

Greed is the only driver of economic growth.

No, Sun Tzu, a growing population and an increase in productivity are the central factors in economic growth.

Greed is a marginal motivation. The big drivers in the economy are still food production, energy and construction. As a consumer, you can only eat, do and dwell so much. Economics is about the distribution of these things.

Financial services and intellectual property are different, but they are equally finite. One person on one income can only save so much money, or consume so much of a patented product like pharmaceuticals. The greed factor - marketing - is about turning more and more people onto such products, or about finding new uses for old products. Most growth in new drug patent applications is about finding new uses for existing drugs. Most growth in financial products is about poaching existing customers from other banks or hedge funds.

And so the world turns. The only real growth is in population, which increases demand.

UNhinged misinterprets motivation, desire and passion for 'greed'. In his limited mindspace he equates achievement with greed.

UNhinged is not greedy.

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