Australian Politics Forum - Atheists open churches around the world

Quantum

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Re: Atheists open churches around the world
Reply #135 - Nov 12^th, 2015 at 4:53pm

Stratos wrote on Nov 12^th, 2015 at 4:44pm:

mariacostel wrote on Nov 12^th, 2015 at 3:50pm:

Once again, you simply set up arbitrary standards designed to just repeal any evidence you don't like.

Bollocks, this whole thing started when YOU claimed there were eyewitnesses to Jesus. This is simply asking you to substantiate your claim.

Quantum wrote on Nov 12^th, 2015 at 4:01pm:

You use the writings of Josephus as evidence for Herod, and yet the same Josephus is not evidence for Jesus when he wrote about him.

Please read all of Josephus writings on Jesus in context before you comment on them.

edit: I specifically mention they are accurate because they were directly used to uncover other evidence by the way, in this case the tomb of Herod.

I have, hence my surprise that you would use him to support Herod and yet still call for evidence for Jesus as if none exist.

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mothra

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Re: Atheists open churches around the world
Reply #136 - Nov 12^th, 2015 at 4:56pm

mariacostel wrote on Nov 12^th, 2015 at 4:22pm:

Quantum wrote on Nov 12^th, 2015 at 4:01pm:

Stratos wrote on Nov 12^th, 2015 at 7:08am:

mariacostel wrote on Nov 12^th, 2015 at 6:33am:

Of course you believe in THEM.

Yes, because there is contemporary written or archaeological evidence, which I encouraged you to look up. I will now do something quote shocking and direct you to the evidence:

Pontius Pilate:

-The Pilate Stone, dated from the early 1st Century https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pilate_Stone
-The writings of Philo of Alexandria, contemporary Historian.

Herod

-Numerous buildings that he commissioned to be built, and his tomb has been discovered
-The writings of Josephus, while not contemporary [highlight]do appear to be accurate[/highlight], as they have given us the location of key physical proof such as the aforementioned tomb.

If you can provide similar evidence for Jesus I will be perfectly happy to agree, but you have failed to do so.

Let me just get this straight... You use the writings of Josephus as evidence for Herod, and yet the same Josephus is not evidence for Jesus when he wrote about him.

You got it!!! The problem is not an intellectual problem, but far deeper. Herod's existence is neither here nor there. It frankly doesn't matter much to anyone at all. But Jesus? Now if ever a claim upset people it was His. So it is easier to just deny that He ever existed, even if it means mounting an thoroughly unsupported and hypocritical stance.

I understand it perfectly. But it is still wrong.

I accused you earlier of not understanding Stratos' argument and see further proof i was right on the money.

Stratos asked you to qualify your statement that there were "many eyewitnesses" to the existence of Jesus that recorded as eyewitnesses.

You have failed to do that Maria.

I asked you for one single secular historian who believe any of the Gospels are eyewitness accounts.

You failed to do provide one.

You either don't understand what Stratos is saying in the slightest, or you are still just so furiously running from addressing the above that you are just making things up again.

Just out of interest, i've yet to see Stratos definitively say that there was no Jesus. He's just looking for eyewitness accounts, because you told him to Maria.

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If you can't be a good example, you have to be a horrible warning.

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He Man Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 1159 Gender:	Re: Atheists open churches around the world Reply #137 - Nov 12^th, 2015 at 4:59pm So sue maria
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Stratos

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Re: Atheists open churches around the world
Reply #138 - Nov 12^th, 2015 at 4:59pm

Quantum wrote on Nov 12^th, 2015 at 4:53pm:

I have, hence my surprise that you would use him to support Herod and yet still call for evidence for Jesus as if none exist.

It supports the existence for Herod because it gave specific directions that lead to the discovery of his tomb. If anything remotely similar to this (location of the tomb Jesus was buried etc.) that could direct us to a site that would be fine.

So, how much of the Testimonium Flavianum do you think was added? All or just some?

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Pete Waldo wrote on Jan 15^th, 2014 at 11:24pm:

Thus killing those Canaanite babies while they were still innocent, was a particularly merciful act

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mariacostel

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Re: Atheists open churches around the world
Reply #139 - Nov 12^th, 2015 at 5:45pm

Stratos wrote on Nov 12^th, 2015 at 4:44pm:

mariacostel wrote on Nov 12^th, 2015 at 3:50pm:

Once again, you simply set up arbitrary standards designed to just repeal any evidence you don't like.

Bollocks, this whole thing started when YOU claimed there were eyewitnesses to Jesus. This is simply asking you to substantiate your claim.

Quantum wrote on Nov 12^th, 2015 at 4:01pm:

You use the writings of Josephus as evidence for Herod, and yet the same Josephus is not evidence for Jesus when he wrote about him.

Please read all of Josephus writings on Jesus in context before you comment on them.

edit: I specifically mention they are accurate because they were directly used to uncover other evidence by the way, in this case the tomb of Herod.

John the Apostle was an eye-witness but you conveniently deny his claim.

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Stratos

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Re: Atheists open churches around the world
Reply #140 - Nov 12^th, 2015 at 5:54pm

mariacostel wrote on Nov 12^th, 2015 at 5:45pm:

John the Apostle was an eye-witness but you conveniently deny his claim.

Show me where specifically. Keep in mind the title was added later, as it was to all of the synoptic gospels too.

If you want to know what a real accreditation looks like, flip over a couple dozen pages to any of Pauls writings. Now that's how you claim authorship.

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Pete Waldo wrote on Jan 15^th, 2014 at 11:24pm:

Thus killing those Canaanite babies while they were still innocent, was a particularly merciful act

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mariacostel

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Re: Atheists open churches around the world
Reply #141 - Nov 12^th, 2015 at 6:06pm

Stratos wrote on Nov 12^th, 2015 at 5:54pm:

mariacostel wrote on Nov 12^th, 2015 at 5:45pm:

John the Apostle was an eye-witness but you conveniently deny his claim.

Show me where specifically. Keep in mind the title was added later, as it was to all of the synoptic gospels too.

If you want to know what a real accreditation looks like, flip over a couple dozen pages to any of Pauls writings. Now that's how you claim authorship.

And you just keep on proving my point. You just raise the bar until the evidence you don't like no longer meets 'your standards'.

You are fooling only yourself.

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Stratos Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 4725	Re: Atheists open churches around the world Reply #142 - Nov 12^th, 2015 at 6:09pm A dodge? well I never. "John's" Gospel is anonymous. I'm not surprised you didn't even try to show otherwise.
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mariacostel

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Re: Atheists open churches around the world
Reply #143 - Nov 12^th, 2015 at 6:10pm

mothra wrote on Nov 12^th, 2015 at 4:56pm:

mariacostel wrote on Nov 12^th, 2015 at 4:22pm:

Quantum wrote on Nov 12^th, 2015 at 4:01pm:

Stratos wrote on Nov 12^th, 2015 at 7:08am:

mariacostel wrote on Nov 12^th, 2015 at 6:33am:

Of course you believe in THEM.

Yes, because there is contemporary written or archaeological evidence, which I encouraged you to look up. I will now do something quote shocking and direct you to the evidence:

Pontius Pilate:

-The Pilate Stone, dated from the early 1st Century https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pilate_Stone
-The writings of Philo of Alexandria, contemporary Historian.

Herod

-Numerous buildings that he commissioned to be built, and his tomb has been discovered
-The writings of Josephus, while not contemporary [highlight]do appear to be accurate[/highlight], as they have given us the location of key physical proof such as the aforementioned tomb.

If you can provide similar evidence for Jesus I will be perfectly happy to agree, but you have failed to do so.

Let me just get this straight... You use the writings of Josephus as evidence for Herod, and yet the same Josephus is not evidence for Jesus when he wrote about him.

You got it!!! The problem is not an intellectual problem, but far deeper. Herod's existence is neither here nor there. It frankly doesn't matter much to anyone at all. But Jesus? Now if ever a claim upset people it was His. So it is easier to just deny that He ever existed, even if it means mounting an thoroughly unsupported and hypocritical stance.

I understand it perfectly. But it is still wrong.

I accused you earlier of not understanding Stratos' argument and see further proof i was right on the money.

Stratos asked you to qualify your statement that there were "many eyewitnesses" to the existence of Jesus that recorded as eyewitnesses.

You have failed to do that Maria.

I asked you for one single secular historian who believe any of the Gospels are eyewitness accounts.

You failed to do provide one.

You either don't understand what Stratos is saying in the slightest, or you are still just so furiously running from addressing the above that you are just making things up again.

Just out of interest, i've yet to see Stratos definitively say that there was no Jesus. He's just looking for eyewitness accounts, because you told him to Maria.

Stratos might be wrong and a tad arrogant, but you are just garden-variety STUPID.

Let the adults debate. You go watch Dora the Explorer.

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mothra

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Re: Atheists open churches around the world
Reply #144 - Nov 12^th, 2015 at 6:15pm

mariacostel wrote on Nov 12^th, 2015 at 6:10pm:

mothra wrote on Nov 12^th, 2015 at 4:56pm:

mariacostel wrote on Nov 12^th, 2015 at 4:22pm:

Quantum wrote on Nov 12^th, 2015 at 4:01pm:

Stratos wrote on Nov 12^th, 2015 at 7:08am:

mariacostel wrote on Nov 12^th, 2015 at 6:33am:

Of course you believe in THEM.

Yes, because there is contemporary written or archaeological evidence, which I encouraged you to look up. I will now do something quote shocking and direct you to the evidence:

Pontius Pilate:

-The Pilate Stone, dated from the early 1st Century https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pilate_Stone
-The writings of Philo of Alexandria, contemporary Historian.

Herod

-Numerous buildings that he commissioned to be built, and his tomb has been discovered
-The writings of Josephus, while not contemporary [highlight]do appear to be accurate[/highlight], as they have given us the location of key physical proof such as the aforementioned tomb.

If you can provide similar evidence for Jesus I will be perfectly happy to agree, but you have failed to do so.

Let me just get this straight... You use the writings of Josephus as evidence for Herod, and yet the same Josephus is not evidence for Jesus when he wrote about him.

You got it!!! The problem is not an intellectual problem, but far deeper. Herod's existence is neither here nor there. It frankly doesn't matter much to anyone at all. But Jesus? Now if ever a claim upset people it was His. So it is easier to just deny that He ever existed, even if it means mounting an thoroughly unsupported and hypocritical stance.

I understand it perfectly. But it is still wrong.

I accused you earlier of not understanding Stratos' argument and see further proof i was right on the money.

Stratos asked you to qualify your statement that there were "many eyewitnesses" to the existence of Jesus that recorded as eyewitnesses.

You have failed to do that Maria.

I asked you for one single secular historian who believe any of the Gospels are eyewitness accounts.

You failed to do provide one.

You either don't understand what Stratos is saying in the slightest, or you are still just so furiously running from addressing the above that you are just making things up again.

Just out of interest, i've yet to see Stratos definitively say that there was no Jesus. He's just looking for eyewitness accounts, because you told him to Maria.

Stratos might be wrong and a tad arrogant, but you are just garden-variety STUPID.

Let the adults debate. You go watch Dora the Explorer.

Then why can't you answer my question Maria?

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If you can't be a good example, you have to be a horrible warning.

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Kytro

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Re: Atheists open churches around the world
Reply #145 - Nov 12^th, 2015 at 6:16pm

mariacostel wrote on Nov 12^th, 2015 at 4:00pm:

Kytro wrote on Nov 12^th, 2015 at 12:37pm:

An example of one the issue is the slaughter of the innocents. Herod was a figure whose reign was documented by Flavius Josephus, and while Herod's other misdeeds are mentioned, this isn't.

it is an interesting point, but only interesting. The absence of this account means what? He didn't know of it? It essentially proves nothing and at best makes a mild suggestion.

My suggestion is the case that it is true is weakened by the fact that there is only one primary source (just Matthew) and that other contemporary historians don't corroborate it even though they were clearly recoding history around that time period.

The Bible is a narrative collection of works, it's not a historical account like Antiquities of the Jews.

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mothra Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 35585 Gender:	Re: Atheists open churches around the world Reply #146 - Nov 12^th, 2015 at 6:16pm Always so nasty when backed into a corner. Just lashes out.
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mariacostel

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Re: Atheists open churches around the world
Reply #147 - Nov 12^th, 2015 at 6:17pm

mothra wrote on Nov 12^th, 2015 at 6:15pm:

mariacostel wrote on Nov 12^th, 2015 at 6:10pm:

mothra wrote on Nov 12^th, 2015 at 4:56pm:

mariacostel wrote on Nov 12^th, 2015 at 4:22pm:

Quantum wrote on Nov 12^th, 2015 at 4:01pm:

Stratos wrote on Nov 12^th, 2015 at 7:08am:

mariacostel wrote on Nov 12^th, 2015 at 6:33am:

Of course you believe in THEM.

Yes, because there is contemporary written or archaeological evidence, which I encouraged you to look up. I will now do something quote shocking and direct you to the evidence:

Pontius Pilate:

-The Pilate Stone, dated from the early 1st Century https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pilate_Stone
-The writings of Philo of Alexandria, contemporary Historian.

Herod

-Numerous buildings that he commissioned to be built, and his tomb has been discovered
-The writings of Josephus, while not contemporary [highlight]do appear to be accurate[/highlight], as they have given us the location of key physical proof such as the aforementioned tomb.

If you can provide similar evidence for Jesus I will be perfectly happy to agree, but you have failed to do so.

Let me just get this straight... You use the writings of Josephus as evidence for Herod, and yet the same Josephus is not evidence for Jesus when he wrote about him.

You got it!!! The problem is not an intellectual problem, but far deeper. Herod's existence is neither here nor there. It frankly doesn't matter much to anyone at all. But Jesus? Now if ever a claim upset people it was His. So it is easier to just deny that He ever existed, even if it means mounting an thoroughly unsupported and hypocritical stance.

I understand it perfectly. But it is still wrong.

I accused you earlier of not understanding Stratos' argument and see further proof i was right on the money.

Stratos asked you to qualify your statement that there were "many eyewitnesses" to the existence of Jesus that recorded as eyewitnesses.

You have failed to do that Maria.

I asked you for one single secular historian who believe any of the Gospels are eyewitness accounts.

You failed to do provide one.

You either don't understand what Stratos is saying in the slightest, or you are still just so furiously running from addressing the above that you are just making things up again.

Just out of interest, i've yet to see Stratos definitively say that there was no Jesus. He's just looking for eyewitness accounts, because you told him to Maria.

Stratos might be wrong and a tad arrogant, but you are just garden-variety STUPID.

Let the adults debate. You go watch Dora the Explorer.

Then why can't you answer my question Maria?

Because it would be like explaining physics to a chimp - and not one of the clever ones either.

You don't understand the questions. You don't understand the answers. You are so far out of your depth and so far out to sea you cant even sea land. Or spell the word.

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mothra

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Re: Atheists open churches around the world
Reply #148 - Nov 12^th, 2015 at 6:19pm

mariacostel wrote on Nov 12^th, 2015 at 6:17pm:

mothra wrote on Nov 12^th, 2015 at 6:15pm:

mariacostel wrote on Nov 12^th, 2015 at 6:10pm:

mothra wrote on Nov 12^th, 2015 at 4:56pm:

mariacostel wrote on Nov 12^th, 2015 at 4:22pm:

Quantum wrote on Nov 12^th, 2015 at 4:01pm:

Stratos wrote on Nov 12^th, 2015 at 7:08am:

mariacostel wrote on Nov 12^th, 2015 at 6:33am:

Of course you believe in THEM.

Yes, because there is contemporary written or archaeological evidence, which I encouraged you to look up. I will now do something quote shocking and direct you to the evidence:

Pontius Pilate:

-The Pilate Stone, dated from the early 1st Century https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pilate_Stone
-The writings of Philo of Alexandria, contemporary Historian.

Herod

-Numerous buildings that he commissioned to be built, and his tomb has been discovered
-The writings of Josephus, while not contemporary [highlight]do appear to be accurate[/highlight], as they have given us the location of key physical proof such as the aforementioned tomb.

If you can provide similar evidence for Jesus I will be perfectly happy to agree, but you have failed to do so.

Let me just get this straight... You use the writings of Josephus as evidence for Herod, and yet the same Josephus is not evidence for Jesus when he wrote about him.

You got it!!! The problem is not an intellectual problem, but far deeper. Herod's existence is neither here nor there. It frankly doesn't matter much to anyone at all. But Jesus? Now if ever a claim upset people it was His. So it is easier to just deny that He ever existed, even if it means mounting an thoroughly unsupported and hypocritical stance.

I understand it perfectly. But it is still wrong.

I accused you earlier of not understanding Stratos' argument and see further proof i was right on the money.

Stratos asked you to qualify your statement that there were "many eyewitnesses" to the existence of Jesus that recorded as eyewitnesses.

You have failed to do that Maria.

I asked you for one single secular historian who believe any of the Gospels are eyewitness accounts.

You failed to do provide one.

You either don't understand what Stratos is saying in the slightest, or you are still just so furiously running from addressing the above that you are just making things up again.

Just out of interest, i've yet to see Stratos definitively say that there was no Jesus. He's just looking for eyewitness accounts, because you told him to Maria.

Stratos might be wrong and a tad arrogant, but you are just garden-variety STUPID.

Let the adults debate. You go watch Dora the Explorer.

Then why can't you answer my question Maria?

Because it would be like explaining physics to a chimp - and not one of the clever ones either.

You don't understand the questions. You don't understand the answers. You are so far out of your depth and so far out to sea you cant even sea land. Or spell the word.

Not in the slightest Maria. I can see clearly that you are shadow boxing.

Either you're too stupid to understand what Stratos is actually saying to you or you are burying your mistake in pages and pages of missing the point entirely.

Just one secular academic Maria. Just one.

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If you can't be a good example, you have to be a horrible warning.

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Bazza

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Re: Atheists open churches around the world
Reply #149 - Nov 12^th, 2015 at 7:17pm

The verdict of expert historians
Almost all historians believe Jesus did indeed live. The following quotes from historians who have specialised in that period of history are typical:

I don't think there's any serious historian who doubts the existence of Jesus .... We have more evidence for Jesus than we have for almost anybody from his time period.
Prof Bart Ehrman, University of North Carolina

we can no more reject Jesus' existence than we can reject the existence of a mass of pagan personages whose reality as historical figures is never questioned. ..... In recent years, 'no serious scholar has ventured to postulate the non historicity of Jesus' or at any rate very few, and they have not succeeded in disposing of the much stronger, indeed very abundant, evidence to the contrary."
The late Michael Grant, eminent historian of the Roman Empire

Jesus did exist; and we know more about him than about almost any Palestinian Jew before 70 C.E."
Prof James Charlesworth, Princeton Theological Seminary

Biblical scholars and classical historians now regard it [the theory that Jesus didn't exist] as effectively refuted."
Robert Van Voorst, Western Theological Seminary

The historical evidence for Jesus himself is extraordinarily good. .... From time to time people try to suggest that Jesus of Nazareth never existed, but virtually all historians of whatever background now agree that he did"
NT Wright

Further quotes, with sources, can be found at Quotes on Jesus as a historical person

Note: We need to be clear what the historians are saying, and not misunderstand. They are not necessarily endorsing christian belief about Jesus - some of the above historians are christians, some are not. They are simply saying that a person recognisable as the Jesus of the gospels truly lived, taught, gained a reputation as a miracle-worker and was executed - for more on what they conclude we can know about Jesus, see Jesus in history.

http://www.is-there-a-god.info/belief/wasjesusreal.shtml

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