Australian Politics Forum - Leftist lawyers responsible for refugee's death?

Dnarever

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Re: Leftist lawyers responsible for refugee's death?
Reply #30 - Nov 15^th, 2015 at 7:59am

Maqqa wrote on Nov 14^th, 2015 at 1:11pm:

philperth2010 wrote on Nov 14^th, 2015 at 11:19am:

The lawyer was correct to advise the men to plead guilty....Initiating the physical altercation would negate the self defence argument and diminish any argument of remorse....How the man escaped the detention centre and was later found dead is the responsibility of the Federal Government and staff at the detention centre!!!

Roll Eyes

If he didn't try to escape then he would still be alive

So the lefties will say - when escaped he didn't anticipate on dying or anticipate his risk of death would increase

for goodness sake - take personal responsibility!!

It's always someone else's fault

Have a look at your title to this topic and the lead comment - seems you started out blaming the Lawyer and the Leftists ?

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Phemanderac Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 3507 Gender:	Re: Leftist lawyers responsible for refugee's death? Reply #31 - Nov 15^th, 2015 at 8:04am Dnarever wrote on Nov 15^th, 2015 at 7:59am: Have a look at your title to this topic and the lead comment - seems you started out blaming the Lawyer and the Leftists ? That would be the Right way to take responsibility would it not?
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Dnarever

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Re: Leftist lawyers responsible for refugee's death?
Reply #32 - Nov 15^th, 2015 at 8:04am

Maqqa wrote on Nov 14^th, 2015 at 1:11pm:

philperth2010 wrote on Nov 14^th, 2015 at 11:19am:

The lawyer was correct to advise the men to plead guilty....Initiating the physical altercation would negate the self defence argument and diminish any argument of remorse....How the man escaped the detention centre and was later found dead is the responsibility of the Federal Government and staff at the detention centre!!!

Roll Eyes

If he didn't try to escape then he would still be alive

So the lefties will say - when escaped he didn't anticipate on dying or anticipate his risk of death would increase

for goodness sake - take personal responsibility!!

It's always someone else's fault

If he didn't try to escape then he would still be alive

Probably but had he been released in a timely fashion following being identified as a genuine refugee he also would likely still been alive. Had he not been imprisoned for 4 years having committed no crime he also would still be alive.

However we don't know how he died, he may have died from a stroke which could have occurred in any scenario or it could have been a heat attack which should have been treated and the blame falls on his lack of treatment and the due diligence of his captors and the nastiness of the governments.

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John Smith Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 75100 Gender:	Re: Leftist lawyers responsible for refugee's death? Reply #33 - Nov 15^th, 2015 at 8:59am rightie logic lock them up until they go mental and then blame them for going mental
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Dnarever Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 59186 Here Gender:	Re: Leftist lawyers responsible for refugee's death? Reply #34 - Nov 15^th, 2015 at 9:30am John Smith wrote on Nov 15^th, 2015 at 8:59am: rightie logic lock them up until they go mental and then blame them for going mental Seems to have worked well for over 2 decades now - why change a winning formula ?
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philperth2010

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Re: Leftist lawyers responsible for refugee's death?
Reply #35 - Nov 15^th, 2015 at 10:09am

Maqqa wrote on Nov 15^th, 2015 at 12:30am:

Lets take this back several notches

Stage 1
He was given refugee status and issued a VISA -

Because he was found to be a genuine refugee and of sound character, until he assaulted another detainee. Then the Immigration Minister cancelled his visa because he believed the man failed the character test. Peter Dutton obviously thought the assault was serious enough to take this action.

Stage 2
He was involved in an assault -

Which he initiated by pushing another person, this is defined as common assault under Australian law.

Stage 3
His lawyer advised him to plea guilty even though a guilty plea meant he would lose his VISA -

There were no grounds for self defence as the accused initiated the physical contact. The accused was also free to reject the lawyers advice if he thought it would be detrimental to his defence. Not accepting responsibility and showing no remorse would have resulted in a harsher penalty. He would have lost his visa anyway and suffered a harsher penalty from the court.

Stage 4
As the result of his guilty plea he fails the character test and lose his VISA -

As a result of the defendant initiating a common assault he failed the character test and would have lost his visa no matter how he pleaded. Any lawyer would advise their client to plead guilty when they are in fact guilty.

Stage 5
VISA revoked and he was kept in detention for deportation -

Where the responsibility for his incarceration and safety are the sole responsibility of detention centre staff and the Immigration Minister.

Stage 6
He tried to escape and died. Investigations underway for cause of death -

The investigation will also examine how was able to escape and the circumstances that lead to him being found deceased.

The point of this thread is - in Stage 3 his lawyer failed him. -

You are incorrect, the lawyer gave his client the correct advise. Do you think a plea of self defence would have been accepted by the court when the defendant initiated the physical assault?

Lefties continue to focus on Stage 6 -

You continue to fail in your interpretation of common law and who is responsible for anyone who is interned by the Government for any reason. If a prisoner escapes custody who is responsible, the authorities charged with ensuring his safety and the safety of the public or the person who escaped.

Using your flawed analogy and adverse impacts on a person who is incarcerated is the fault of the lawyer who represented them not those charged with their care. I a prisoner escapes jail it is the lawyers fault?

It may well be that this man escaped and committed suicide or had a tragic accident....However the lawyer is not responsible for his incarceration and safety is he....That responsibility falls on the Immigration Minister Peter Dutton?

Roll Eyes

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Maqqa

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Re: Leftist lawyers responsible for refugee's death?
Reply #36 - Nov 15^th, 2015 at 10:54am

philperth2010 wrote on Nov 15^th, 2015 at 10:09am:

Maqqa wrote on Nov 15^th, 2015 at 12:30am:

Lets take this back several notches

Stage 1
He was given refugee status and issued a VISA -

Because he was found to be a genuine refugee and of sound character, until he assaulted another detainee. Then the Immigration Minister cancelled his visa because he believed the man failed the character test. Peter Dutton obviously thought the assault was serious enough to take this action.

That is mentioned in Stage 3. So my logic is not flawed. It's just you can't read

Stage 2
He was involved in an assault -

Which he initiated by pushing another person, this is defined as common assault under Australian law.

Stage 3
His lawyer advised him to plea guilty even though a guilty plea meant he would lose his VISA -

There were no grounds for self defence as the accused initiated the physical contact. The accused was also free to reject the lawyers advice if he thought it would be detrimental to his defence. Not accepting responsibility and showing no remorse would have resulted in a harsher penalty. He would have lost his visa anyway and suffered a harsher penalty from the court.

If there were mitigating circumstances then this should be presented. If there were no mitigating circumstances then this guy is stuffed. If this is the case then why are lefties defending him?

Stage 4
As the result of his guilty plea he fails the character test and lose his VISA -

As a result of the defendant initiating a common assault he failed the character test and would have lost his visa no matter how he pleaded. Any lawyer would advise their client to plead guilty when they are in fact guilty.

If so then why are lefties defending this guy?

Stage 5
VISA revoked and he was kept in detention for deportation -

Where the responsibility for his incarceration and safety are the sole responsibility of detention centre staff and the Immigration Minister.

Not if he's suicidal. If he wants to kill himself then he will kill himself. Don't pin that one on someone else

Stage 6
He tried to escape and died. Investigations underway for cause of death -

The investigation will also examine how was able to escape and the circumstances that lead to him being found deceased.

That should set an example for others not to do the same

The point of this thread is - in Stage 3 his lawyer failed him. -

You are incorrect, the lawyer gave his client the correct advise. Do you think a plea of self defence would have been accepted by the court when the defendant initiated the physical assault?

If as you said he's guilty beyond doubt then why are lefties defending him?

Lefties continue to focus on Stage 6 -

You continue to fail in your interpretation of common law and who is responsible for anyone who is interned by the Government for any reason. If a prisoner escapes custody who is responsible, the authorities charged with ensuring his safety and the safety of the public or the person who escaped.

If it is as you have interpret then someone would be prosecuted for every single death in custody

Using your flawed analogy and adverse impacts on a person who is incarcerated is the fault of the lawyer who represented them not those charged with their care. I a prisoner escapes jail it is the lawyers fault?

It may well be that this man escaped and committed suicide or had a tragic accident....However the lawyer is not responsible for his incarceration and safety is he....That responsibility falls on the Immigration Minister Peter Dutton?

Roll Eyes

You can't read

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Maqqa

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Re: Leftist lawyers responsible for refugee's death?
Reply #37 - Nov 15^th, 2015 at 10:56am

John Smith wrote on Nov 15^th, 2015 at 8:59am:

rightie logic

lock them up until they go mental and then blame them for going mental Cheesy

They might not go mental if they stopped by the first come they come across

But instead pinned all their hopes and money on a destination that will not put up with their cr#p

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Bill 14% is not the alcohol content of that wine. It's your poll number

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Jovial Monk Gold Member Offline Dogs not cats! Posts: 47794 Gender:	Re: Leftist lawyers responsible for refugee's death? Reply #38 - Nov 15^th, 2015 at 11:09am What country do you think he should have stopped at?
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Grappler Deep State Feller

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Re: Leftist lawyers responsible for refugee's death?
Reply #39 - Nov 15^th, 2015 at 11:18am

"Because he was found to be a genuine refugee and of sound character, until he assaulted another detainee. Then the Immigration Minister cancelled his visa because he believed the man failed the character test. Peter Dutton obviously thought the assault was serious enough to take this action."

Doesn't sound like much of an assault and nothing uncommon in an area where people are packed cheek by jowel and under pressure. Not something that required the draconian punishment of eternal banishment to the outer darkness never to return.

That's just tub-thumping by a minister of a government with no real policy for handling people in a humane manner.

The 'court' should have accepted his 'assault' was miniscule and offered the same kind of punishment anyone else would have received - a caution and see ya later.

Does anyone really imagine the courts here are clogged up with assault charges against people who pushed someone else?

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“Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.”
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philperth2010

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Re: Leftist lawyers responsible for refugee's death?
Reply #40 - Nov 15^th, 2015 at 11:19am

Authorities who charged the defendant with common assault obviously believed he was guilty or they would not have pressed charges against him....The Immigration Minister obviously thought the charges were serious enough to revoke his visa and deport him....All a lawyer can do is instruct his client, he cannot force them to accept his advice....Where the authorities wrong to charge this man with common assault and was the Immigration Minister wrong to revoke his visa....Over to you Maqqa???

Huh

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philperth2010

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Re: Leftist lawyers responsible for refugee's death?
Reply #41 - Nov 15^th, 2015 at 11:22am

Grappler Deep State Feller wrote on Nov 15^th, 2015 at 11:18am:

"Because he was found to be a genuine refugee and of sound character, until he assaulted another detainee. Then the Immigration Minister cancelled his visa because he believed the man failed the character test. Peter Dutton obviously thought the assault was serious enough to take this action."

Doesn't sound like much of an assault and nothing uncommon in an area where people are packed cheek by jowel and under pressure. Not something that required the draconian punishment of eternal banishment to the outer darkness never to return.

That's just tub-thumping by a minister of a government with no real policy for handling people in a humane manner.

The 'court' should have accepted his 'assault' was miniscule and offered the same kind of punishment anyone else would have received - a caution and see ya later.

Does anyone really imagine the courts here are clogged up with assault charges against people who pushed someone else?

Exactly Grapp....It was not the lawyer who charged the man with assault or revoked his visa....The penalty was handed down by a Minister who thought the punishment fitted the crime!!!

Huh

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Grappler Deep State Feller

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Re: Leftist lawyers responsible for refugee's death?
Reply #42 - Nov 15^th, 2015 at 11:24am

philperth2010 wrote on Nov 15^th, 2015 at 11:19am:

Authorities who charged the defendant with common assault obviously believed he was guilty or they would not have pressed charges against him....The Immigration Minister obviously thought the charges were serious enough to revoke his visa and deport him....All a lawyer can do is instruct his client, he cannot force them to accept his advice....Where the authorities wrong to charge this man with common assault and was the Immigration Minister wrong to revoke his visa....Over to you Maqqa???

Huh

Yes - nobody in the street would be charged with that unless it was against a police officer, and we all know the streets are just filled with people who decide to take on police for no good reason, even when they've never committed any wrong in the past Grin

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“Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.”
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John Smith

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Re: Leftist lawyers responsible for refugee's death?
Reply #43 - Nov 15^th, 2015 at 1:01pm

Maqqa wrote on Nov 15^th, 2015 at 10:56am:

John Smith wrote on Nov 15^th, 2015 at 8:59am:

rightie logic

lock them up until they go mental and then blame them for going mental Cheesy

They might not go mental if they stopped by the first come they come across

But instead pinned all their hopes and money on a destination that will not put up with their cr#p

yeah I know gumpy, it's never the govt.s fault when its a liberal govt. Where should he have stopped? Malaysia? Indonesia? Perhaps China? which of those countries would have allowed him to start anew do you think? Cheesy

Maqqa wrote on Nov 15^th, 2015 at 10:54am:

If as you said he's guilty beyond doubt then why are lefties defending him?

no one is defending him or his actions, some however, are questioning the governments duty of care. That you cannot distinguish between the two shows just what a fool you are. Face it Gumpy, you're a hypocrite. You have one standard for the libs, and another standard for everyone else.

Run Forrest Run Grin

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I hope that bitch who was running their brothels for them gets raped with a cactus.

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innocentbystander. Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 4723 Gender:	Re: Leftist lawyers responsible for refugee's death? Reply #44 - Nov 15^th, 2015 at 1:28pm Even now after it has been shown beyond doubt that there are terrorists amongst refugees, that want to murder our children, the idiot left is more determined than ever to bring them in, the idiot left are lemmings and they are taking the rest of us off the cliff with them.
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