Australian Politics Forum - Workers vote to cut pay & conditions for jobs

Dnarever

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Re: Workers vote to cut pay & conditions for jobs
Reply #75 - Nov 19^th, 2015 at 7:44am

aquascoot wrote on Nov 18^th, 2015 at 9:01pm:

Dnarever wrote on Nov 18^th, 2015 at 8:32pm:

aquascoot wrote on Nov 18^th, 2015 at 5:49pm:

Kytro wrote on Nov 18^th, 2015 at 4:28pm:

aquascoot wrote on Nov 18^th, 2015 at 1:41pm:

Kyrto when i look at those guys who are losing their jobs after years of work i see people who are scared and look tired.

They basicly have been sold a lemon.

Its actually a very similar look to what i see when i look at a guy who is getting divorced after a long marriage.

society sells these guys a path which is just not realistic.

if you are a good worker or a good husband, thats simply no gaurantee that life is going to work out well for you. its a myth of the group think of society.

every day in the workplace, every day in your relationships, you gotta bring your A game, you got to be growing, you got to be adapting, you got to be improving.

its sad when they say "ive worked here for 30 years (doing the same job) and how am i going to get another job......
i was a good husband for 30 years and how am i going to get another wife.

In all things, work or relationships, DO NOT ASK what am i getting out of this (be that pay or sex and meals and compnaionship) ask WHAT AM I BECOMING.

most people are beaten down, you have to keep growing, you have to WORK HARDER ON YOURSELF THEN YOU WOULD EVER WORK ON YOUR JOB.

this story is going to become worse and worse and worse as the security (in work and relationships) get worse.

You know your average small business person is always scared and always tired but he learns to live with that, embrace it and uses it as a spur to personal improvement.
If you think you can just learn a job at a steel company and then go into Durrrrrrr mode for 40 years, i'm sorry, society has sold you a pup.
Welcome to the real world, now pick yourself up and learn the lessons you should have been learning every moment of every day for the last 40 years

Effectively the days of doing the same job at the same place for life are mostly over.

we are in furious agreement

Yes it is a shame though.

yes and no,
like i said, the thing the small business person has always had to do is to be happy to live with ambiguity.
to learn to live with a degree of fear.

we all will need to do that now.

the modern worker is really a small business person working for "myself pty ltd"

he needs to have that mindset. he needs to market himself (positive psychology, good smile, firm handshake, well groomed, punctual) and he will need to improve himself (courses, studying, innovating, continuous education, learning IT).

so there is more work, indeed.

but the marriage analogy is valid.
you dont get married and just go....righto , set for life, put in my hours, get fat, couch time, chode mode, do as little as possible and try to get away from the partner...not if you want a good marriage.

same goes for a job...you will get more out of it if you improve yourself and you also make yourself indespensible and more likely to be kept on (ie you wont have to go thru as many painful relationship break ups/sackings)

Don't like you analogy because it only translates into the real world theoretically and the realities are very different. We often come to odds because you primarily consider small business when I am thinking about a bigger corporate picture and we see the same issue with entirely different perspectives.

In my view that long term tenure was a huge advantage to all and in the situation today everyone loses. There is currently a real disadvantage to employee loyalty and zero loyalty from the employer side.

Note - this is where we transgress - when I say that I am thinking of a corporate situation and you would be thinking small business where some small vestiges of loyalty still exist, immediately you say I am wrong.

The corporate reality is that the employee who shows loyalty is going to be dumped by the employer at probably the most disadvantageous time for him / her and this will happen irrespective of his ability commitment or performance. While on the other side we have the employee who shows no loyalty will stay just long enough to leverage the training experience and knowledge he wants and them moving on before paying back any of the effort put in by the employer. These are our most successful employees and in high demand but they only serve to drive down productivity as they leave just as they actually start to become useful.

Unfortunately in the current world the most likely result of loyalty in employment is a kick in the guts mostly for no genuine reason.

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Dnarever

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Re: Workers vote to cut pay & conditions for jobs
Reply #76 - Nov 19^th, 2015 at 7:49am

mariacostel wrote on Nov 19^th, 2015 at 7:25am:

Kytro wrote on Nov 18^th, 2015 at 5:23pm:

mariacostel wrote on Nov 18^th, 2015 at 4:58pm:

Kytro wrote on Nov 18^th, 2015 at 4:26pm:

mariacostel wrote on Nov 18^th, 2015 at 4:07pm:

You dont think employees cheat employers? These issues are ALWAYS two-sided.

Not anywhere near the scale employers do.

So employees never take sickies? Never lazy, never late? Never steal from employees?

Get a grip.

You seem to be attributing things to me I didn't say. At no point did I say or imply that employees don't rip-off employers, but employers have significantly more power in most jobs and are in a better position to rip-off without consequence.

That is still a largely presumptive and unsupported statement. The facts are that most employers obey the letter of the law and then some. There are some bad ones of course, but they are largely ethical and well-behaved. Can you say the same about employees? The employee's ability to rip of the employer is everywhere while the reverse is largely not easy at all.

The facts are that most employers obey the letter of the law and then some.

I have never found that to be the case except for in areas where they know they will be caught. I have never worked for an employer who would not break laws when they knew they would get away with it and an awful lot falls into this category.

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Jovial Monk Gold Member Offline Dogs not cats! Posts: 47794 Gender:	Re: Workers vote to cut pay & conditions for jobs Reply #77 - Nov 19^th, 2015 at 7:52am Just look at the arrears in super unpaid.
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Dnarever

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Re: Workers vote to cut pay & conditions for jobs
Reply #78 - Nov 19^th, 2015 at 7:57am

Jovial Monk wrote on Nov 19^th, 2015 at 7:52am:

Just look at the arrears in super unpaid.

Taxation ,Industrial relations, contract negotiation, under the table activity, money in hand payments, contract inducements and benefits, kick backs etc.

Many companies if not most could put a tick in each box.

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mariacostel

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Re: Workers vote to cut pay & conditions for jobs
Reply #79 - Nov 19^th, 2015 at 7:58am

Dnarever wrote on Nov 19^th, 2015 at 7:49am:

mariacostel wrote on Nov 19^th, 2015 at 7:25am:

Kytro wrote on Nov 18^th, 2015 at 5:23pm:

mariacostel wrote on Nov 18^th, 2015 at 4:58pm:

Kytro wrote on Nov 18^th, 2015 at 4:26pm:

mariacostel wrote on Nov 18^th, 2015 at 4:07pm:

You dont think employees cheat employers? These issues are ALWAYS two-sided.

Not anywhere near the scale employers do.

So employees never take sickies? Never lazy, never late? Never steal from employees?

Get a grip.

You seem to be attributing things to me I didn't say. At no point did I say or imply that employees don't rip-off employers, but employers have significantly more power in most jobs and are in a better position to rip-off without consequence.

That is still a largely presumptive and unsupported statement. The facts are that most employers obey the letter of the law and then some. There are some bad ones of course, but they are largely ethical and well-behaved. Can you say the same about employees? The employee's ability to rip of the employer is everywhere while the reverse is largely not easy at all.

The facts are that most employers obey the letter of the law and then some.

I have never found that to be the case except for in areas where they know they will be caught. I have never worked for an employer who would not break laws when they knew they would get away with it and an awful lot falls into this category.

Ever taken a sickie, DNA? Ever put in less than full effort in your 8 hour day? If so, you have cheated your employer.

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greggerypeccary Gold Member Online Australian Politics Posts: 138755 Gender:	Re: Workers vote to cut pay & conditions for jobs Reply #80 - Nov 19^th, 2015 at 8:01am mariacostel wrote on Nov 19^th, 2015 at 7:25am: The facts are that most employers obey the letter of the law and then some. That's not a fact: it's uninformed opinion.
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mariacostel

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Re: Workers vote to cut pay & conditions for jobs
Reply #81 - Nov 19^th, 2015 at 8:10am

greggerypeccary wrote on Nov 19^th, 2015 at 8:01am:

mariacostel wrote on Nov 19^th, 2015 at 7:25am:

The facts are that most employers obey the letter of the law and then some.

That's not a fact: it's uninformed opinion.

it is actually INFORMED opinion based on the nonexistence of an endless stream of most companies going to court over breaches.

Why don't you ask Waleed for your opinion?

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Dnarever

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Re: Workers vote to cut pay & conditions for jobs
Reply #82 - Nov 19^th, 2015 at 8:22am

mariacostel wrote on Nov 19^th, 2015 at 7:58am:

Dnarever wrote on Nov 19^th, 2015 at 7:49am:

mariacostel wrote on Nov 19^th, 2015 at 7:25am:

Kytro wrote on Nov 18^th, 2015 at 5:23pm:

mariacostel wrote on Nov 18^th, 2015 at 4:58pm:

Kytro wrote on Nov 18^th, 2015 at 4:26pm:

mariacostel wrote on Nov 18^th, 2015 at 4:07pm:

You dont think employees cheat employers? These issues are ALWAYS two-sided.

Not anywhere near the scale employers do.

So employees never take sickies? Never lazy, never late? Never steal from employees?

Get a grip.

You seem to be attributing things to me I didn't say. At no point did I say or imply that employees don't rip-off employers, but employers have significantly more power in most jobs and are in a better position to rip-off without consequence.

That is still a largely presumptive and unsupported statement. The facts are that most employers obey the letter of the law and then some. There are some bad ones of course, but they are largely ethical and well-behaved. Can you say the same about employees? The employee's ability to rip of the employer is everywhere while the reverse is largely not easy at all.

The facts are that most employers obey the letter of the law and then some.

I have never found that to be the case except for in areas where they know they will be caught. I have never worked for an employer who would not break laws when they knew they would get away with it and an awful lot falls into this category.

Ever taken a sickie, DNA? Ever put in less than full effort in your 8 hour day? If so, you have cheated your employer.

I have a life time average consistent with the last ten years where I averaged about 1 day off per year. Mostly to attend funerals. My more recent time off included a shoulder operation where the Dr wanted ne to take off 6 weeks and I only took 15 days. This increased my average to 2.5 days per year average (10yr av). My leave history routinely shows periods of about 2 years with no day off.

I left 1 employer with over 2 years of unused personal leave and a second with about 8 months of unused leave.

Yes I am a dope in this area and I have a history of showing more loyalty than my employers have deserved, I never worked for any company where I would not have easily been in the top 5% of performers in this area.

The only time I have had off when not legitimately sick was due to bush fires where the roads were closed. On the job I was routinely the first to arrive and the last to leave.

I have been good value to any employer I worked for.

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greggerypeccary

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Re: Workers vote to cut pay & conditions for jobs
Reply #83 - Nov 19^th, 2015 at 8:44am

mariacostel wrote on Nov 19^th, 2015 at 8:10am:

greggerypeccary wrote on Nov 19^th, 2015 at 8:01am:

mariacostel wrote on Nov 19^th, 2015 at 7:25am:

The facts are that most employers obey the letter of the law and then some.

That's not a fact: it's uninformed opinion.

it is actually INFORMED ...

Not even close.

"ignorant: lacking knowledge or information as to a particular subject or fact".

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aquascoot

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Re: Workers vote to cut pay & conditions for jobs
Reply #84 - Nov 19^th, 2015 at 8:50am

Dnarever wrote on Nov 19^th, 2015 at 7:44am:

aquascoot wrote on Nov 18^th, 2015 at 9:01pm:

Dnarever wrote on Nov 18^th, 2015 at 8:32pm:

aquascoot wrote on Nov 18^th, 2015 at 5:49pm:

Kytro wrote on Nov 18^th, 2015 at 4:28pm:

aquascoot wrote on Nov 18^th, 2015 at 1:41pm:

Kyrto when i look at those guys who are losing their jobs after years of work i see people who are scared and look tired.

They basicly have been sold a lemon.

Its actually a very similar look to what i see when i look at a guy who is getting divorced after a long marriage.

society sells these guys a path which is just not realistic.

if you are a good worker or a good husband, thats simply no gaurantee that life is going to work out well for you. its a myth of the group think of society.

every day in the workplace, every day in your relationships, you gotta bring your A game, you got to be growing, you got to be adapting, you got to be improving.

its sad when they say "ive worked here for 30 years (doing the same job) and how am i going to get another job......
i was a good husband for 30 years and how am i going to get another wife.

You know your average small business person is always scared and always tired but he learns to live with that, embrace it and uses it as a spur to personal improvement.
If you think you can just learn a job at a steel company and then go into Durrrrrrr mode for 40 years, i'm sorry, society has sold you a pup.
Welcome to the real world, now pick yourself up and learn the lessons you should have been learning every moment of every day for the last 40 years

Effectively the days of doing the same job at the same place for life are mostly over.

we are in furious agreement

Yes it is a shame though.

yes and no,
like i said, the thing the small business person has always had to do is to be happy to live with ambiguity.
to learn to live with a degree of fear.

we all will need to do that now.

the modern worker is really a small business person working for "myself pty ltd"

he needs to have that mindset. he needs to market himself (positive psychology, good smile, firm handshake, well groomed, punctual) and he will need to improve himself (courses, studying, innovating, continuous education, learning IT).

so there is more work, indeed.

but the marriage analogy is valid.
you dont get married and just go....righto , set for life, put in my hours, get fat, couch time, chode mode, do as little as possible and try to get away from the partner...not if you want a good marriage.

same goes for a job...you will get more out of it if you improve yourself and you also make yourself indespensible and more likely to be kept on (ie you wont have to go thru as many painful relationship break ups/sackings)

Don't like you analogy because it only translates into the real world theoretically and the realities are very different. We often come to odds because you primarily consider small business when I am thinking about a bigger corporate picture and we see the same issue with entirely different perspectives.

In my view that long term tenure was a huge advantage to all and in the situation today everyone loses. There is currently a real disadvantage to employee loyalty and zero loyalty from the employer side.

Note - this is where we transgress - when I say that I am thinking of a corporate situation and you would be thinking small business where some small vestiges of loyalty still exist, immediately you say I am wrong.

The corporate reality is that the employee who shows loyalty is going to be dumped by the employer at probably the most disadvantageous time for him / her and this will happen irrespective of his ability commitment or performance. While on the other side we have the employee who shows no loyalty will stay just long enough to leverage the training experience and knowledge he wants and them moving on before paying back any of the effort put in by the employer. These are our most successful employees and in high demand but they only serve to drive down productivity as they leave just as they actually start to become useful.

Unfortunately in the current world the most likely result of loyalty in employment is a kick in the guts mostly for no genuine reason.

yes , point taken.
i can see how this would happen.
This would be due to a failure of middle management in a big corporation.
Middle management , if not staffed with the right people could result in the loss of these valuable employees and the demise of the business.
(and i am firmly of the belief that increasingly, in a service economy, the people are the number one asset).
If top level management and middle management dont value loyalty and if they let their best workers go after training them, they have failed to understand the reality.

In short, they have been lazy and they have not been mindful

If you run a corporation in the service sector and you are lazy with the management of your number one asset (your staff)

You have .....

Messed up Wink

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mariacostel

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Re: Workers vote to cut pay & conditions for jobs
Reply #85 - Nov 19^th, 2015 at 9:03am

Dnarever wrote on Nov 19^th, 2015 at 8:22am:

mariacostel wrote on Nov 19^th, 2015 at 7:58am:

Dnarever wrote on Nov 19^th, 2015 at 7:49am:

mariacostel wrote on Nov 19^th, 2015 at 7:25am:

Kytro wrote on Nov 18^th, 2015 at 5:23pm:

mariacostel wrote on Nov 18^th, 2015 at 4:58pm:

Kytro wrote on Nov 18^th, 2015 at 4:26pm:

mariacostel wrote on Nov 18^th, 2015 at 4:07pm:

You dont think employees cheat employers? These issues are ALWAYS two-sided.

Not anywhere near the scale employers do.

So employees never take sickies? Never lazy, never late? Never steal from employees?

Get a grip.

You seem to be attributing things to me I didn't say. At no point did I say or imply that employees don't rip-off employers, but employers have significantly more power in most jobs and are in a better position to rip-off without consequence.

That is still a largely presumptive and unsupported statement. The facts are that most employers obey the letter of the law and then some. There are some bad ones of course, but they are largely ethical and well-behaved. Can you say the same about employees? The employee's ability to rip of the employer is everywhere while the reverse is largely not easy at all.

The facts are that most employers obey the letter of the law and then some.

I have never found that to be the case except for in areas where they know they will be caught. I have never worked for an employer who would not break laws when they knew they would get away with it and an awful lot falls into this category.

Ever taken a sickie, DNA? Ever put in less than full effort in your 8 hour day? If so, you have cheated your employer.

I have a life time average consistent with the last ten years where I averaged about 1 day off per year. Mostly to attend funerals. My more recent time off included a shoulder operation where the Dr wanted ne to take off 6 weeks and I only took 15 days. This increased my average to 2.5 days per year average (10yr av). My leave history routinely shows periods of about 2 years with no day off.

I left 1 employer with over 2 years of unused personal leave and a second with about 8 months of unused leave.

Yes I am a dope in this area and I have a history of showing more loyalty than my employers have deserved, I never worked for any company where I would not have easily been in the top 5% of performers in this area.

The only time I have had off when not legitimately sick was due to bush fires where the roads were closed. On the job I was routinely the first to arrive and the last to leave.

I have been good value to any employer I worked for.

Good for you. Now, would you describe yourself as even remotely typical of workers in the companies you have been employed by?

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aquascoot

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Re: Workers vote to cut pay & conditions for jobs
Reply #86 - Nov 19^th, 2015 at 9:24am

mariacostel wrote on Nov 19^th, 2015 at 9:03am:

Dnarever wrote on Nov 19^th, 2015 at 8:22am:

mariacostel wrote on Nov 19^th, 2015 at 7:58am:

Dnarever wrote on Nov 19^th, 2015 at 7:49am:

mariacostel wrote on Nov 19^th, 2015 at 7:25am:

Kytro wrote on Nov 18^th, 2015 at 5:23pm:

mariacostel wrote on Nov 18^th, 2015 at 4:58pm:

Kytro wrote on Nov 18^th, 2015 at 4:26pm:

mariacostel wrote on Nov 18^th, 2015 at 4:07pm:

You dont think employees cheat employers? These issues are ALWAYS two-sided.

Not anywhere near the scale employers do.

So employees never take sickies? Never lazy, never late? Never steal from employees?

Get a grip.

You seem to be attributing things to me I didn't say. At no point did I say or imply that employees don't rip-off employers, but employers have significantly more power in most jobs and are in a better position to rip-off without consequence.

That is still a largely presumptive and unsupported statement. The facts are that most employers obey the letter of the law and then some. There are some bad ones of course, but they are largely ethical and well-behaved. Can you say the same about employees? The employee's ability to rip of the employer is everywhere while the reverse is largely not easy at all.

The facts are that most employers obey the letter of the law and then some.

I have never found that to be the case except for in areas where they know they will be caught. I have never worked for an employer who would not break laws when they knew they would get away with it and an awful lot falls into this category.

Ever taken a sickie, DNA? Ever put in less than full effort in your 8 hour day? If so, you have cheated your employer.

I have a life time average consistent with the last ten years where I averaged about 1 day off per year. Mostly to attend funerals. My more recent time off included a shoulder operation where the Dr wanted ne to take off 6 weeks and I only took 15 days. This increased my average to 2.5 days per year average (10yr av). My leave history routinely shows periods of about 2 years with no day off.

I left 1 employer with over 2 years of unused personal leave and a second with about 8 months of unused leave.

Yes I am a dope in this area and I have a history of showing more loyalty than my employers have deserved, I never worked for any company where I would not have easily been in the top 5% of performers in this area.

The only time I have had off when not legitimately sick was due to bush fires where the roads were closed. On the job I was routinely the first to arrive and the last to leave.

I have been good value to any employer I worked for.

Good for you. Now, would you describe yourself as even remotely typical of workers in the companies you have been employed by?

Its not enough to say "good for you" .
People should be rewarded for doing the right thing.
My dad left the railways with over a year of sick leave and got paid not one cent.

Clearly this is not incentivising the right behaviour.

i would make it a condition that workers be paid their full accrued sick leave when they leave work.
In fact, i would , perhaps, call for the number of sick days paid per annum to be reduced from 10 to 5 and for workers to not only be paid their unpaid sick leave, but with the savings made, they would be paid unclaimed sick leave at 150 %.

this then makes a real "good on you" into a tangible benefit.

We must always look at a desired behaviour and reward it.

This is not rocket science.

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John Smith

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Re: Workers vote to cut pay & conditions for jobs
Reply #87 - Nov 19^th, 2015 at 9:39am

aquascoot wrote on Nov 19^th, 2015 at 9:24am:

Its not enough to say "good for you" .
People should be rewarded for doing the right thing.
My dad left the railways with over a year of sick leave and got paid not one cent.

Clearly this is not incentivising the right behaviour.

i would make it a condition that workers be paid their full accrued sick leave when they leave work.
In fact, i would , perhaps, call for the number of sick days paid per annum to be reduced from 10 to 5 and for workers to not only be paid their unpaid sick leave, but with the savings made, they would be paid unclaimed sick leave at 150 %.

this then makes a real "good on you" into a tangible benefit.

We must always look at a desired behaviour and reward it.

This is not rocket science.

that doesn't encourage good behavior, it encourages bad behavior.

If you can feel a flu coming on, congestion of the sinus's, a tickle of the throat, but aren't really sick yet, you can stay home and nip it in the butt BEFORE it knocks you out completely, or you can push on, share the germs with all your colleagues until you are too sick to get out of bed, along with a high percentage of your colleagues leaving the business severely understaffed.

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Our esteemed leader:
I hope that bitch who was running their brothels for them gets raped with a cactus.

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Jovial Monk

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Re: Workers vote to cut pay & conditions for jobs
Reply #88 - Nov 19^th, 2015 at 9:44am