Australian Politics Forum - Abbott’s clarity is creating anxiety for Turnbull

progressiveslol Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 17029	Re: Abbott’s clarity is creating anxiety for Turnbull Reply #15 - Nov 19^th, 2015 at 10:36am USA cant lead with a soft c ck in the wight house. Get someone who isnt a muslim or a lefty. Then and only then, will isis be defeated
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cods

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Re: Abbott’s clarity is creating anxiety for Turnbull
Reply #16 - Nov 19^th, 2015 at 10:39am

Karnal wrote on Nov 19^th, 2015 at 10:28am:

Armchair_Politician wrote on Nov 19^th, 2015 at 10:07am:

America has a history of pulling out too soon. They celebrated too soon for victory in Iraq then pulled out before Iraqi security forces were ready to take over. The same is happening in Afghanistan. By comparison, when Howard lead Australia against Indonesia over the independence of East Timor, we saw the birth of a prosperous, free, democratic brand new country right on our doorstep. Relations with Indonesia were strained due to the presence of Australian troops, but nothing worse. I reckon if Australia had lead the planning of operations in Syria with Howard as PM, we'd be seeing a far different result - a far more desirable result.

The US was in Iraq for twice the length of WWI, Armchair. The problems in Iraq are not to do with any lack of US involvement, but the decisions they made during the occupation. The biggest mistake they made was ousting the Ba'athists (or ex-Ba'athists) from positions of power. Many of those Ba'athists went elsewhere, including ISIL. They took their weapons and their connections. And they took their grievances.

Howard wasn't involved in the post-war planning. But he was an active member of the so-called Coalition of the Willing. His decision to commit to the invasion of Iraq was the biggest folly the world has seen this century. Not only did it destroy any semblance of security in the Middle East, it saw the US lose its grip on power. It saw a trillion added to the US deficit, and for nothing. The result of the Iraq invasion was the creation of ISIS.

And this is why Obama is so "weak" today. The US has lost its grip on both hard and soft power in the Middle East. This has created a vacuum Iran and now Russia has jumped in to fill.

the trouble is karmal....you are saying that in hindsight...

when we all know Hussein is dead.. so we have no idea what IRAQ would be like or what he would have done.. when it comes to ISIS....had IRAQ not been invaded??..

do you think HE would have attacked ISIS or welcomed them???????..

we will never know will we.......the world could be even more unsafe.....its just a thought. Sad

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cods Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 88048	Re: Abbott’s clarity is creating anxiety for Turnbull Reply #17 - Nov 19^th, 2015 at 10:40am progressiveslol wrote on Nov 19^th, 2015 at 10:36am: USA cant lead with a soft c ck in the wight house. Get someone who isnt a muslim or a lefty. Then and only then, will isis be defeated TRUMP it is then...
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____

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Re: Abbott’s clarity is creating anxiety for Turnbull
Reply #18 - Nov 19^th, 2015 at 10:45am

cods wrote on Nov 19^th, 2015 at 10:40am:

progressiveslol wrote on Nov 19^th, 2015 at 10:36am:

USA cant lead with a soft c ck in the wight house. Get someone who isnt a muslim or a lefty. Then and only then, will isis be defeated

TRUMP it is then... Cheesy

Ben Carson would be better.

Ben Carson Is Struggling to Grasp Foreign Policy, Advisers Say

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/11/18/us/politics/ben-carson-is-struggling-to-grasp-...

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Dsmithy70

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Re: Abbott’s clarity is creating anxiety for Turnbull
Reply #19 - Nov 19^th, 2015 at 11:30am

cods wrote on Nov 19^th, 2015 at 10:39am:

do you think HE would have attacked ISIS or welcomed them???????..

we will never know will we..

No but we can make a very educated guess based on his actions whilst alive.

Iraq was secular, women drove & went to University, hell they even wore jeans.

Any religious nutjob that got to big for his boots was mercilessly crushed.

Seeing ISIL was born in the aftermath of his demise & is a religious based organisation, my monies on
1) them NEVER existing with a Saddam leading Iraq

2)Any muffti who dared even think of taking any of his power or stirring dissent would have been welcomed into the republican guard compound.

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REBELLION is not what most people think it is.
REBELLION is when you turn off the TV & start educating & thinking for yourself.
Gavin Nascimento

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Maqqa

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Re: Abbott’s clarity is creating anxiety for Turnbull
Reply #20 - Nov 19^th, 2015 at 11:33am

Armchair_Politician wrote on Nov 19^th, 2015 at 8:51am:

____ wrote on Nov 19^th, 2015 at 8:46am:

Not having troops in Syria is logical and nothing to do with the harping hard right.

As much as the daily terror wants to create a storm in a tea cup so to undermine Turnbull, the majority of Australian will oppose the conservatives warmongering.

Because the bombing campaign by warplanes has been so effective, hasn't it?

It's ineffective because the US has decreased it from 1000 sorties per day to 15 per day

There are reports some of the 15 bombers come back with their bomb load still intact

Why? Because US changed it's Rules of Engagement. This is why I started a thread on this

I am not defending Greens - all I am saying is compare apples with apples

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Bill 14% is not the alcohol content of that wine. It's your poll number

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tickleandrose

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Re: Abbott’s clarity is creating anxiety for Turnbull
Reply #21 - Nov 19^th, 2015 at 11:38am

Re Armchair & others

More boots on the ground will just simply mean more casualities for our soldiers.

It will change absolutely nothing.

To secure the entire area in the regions that you speak of - Syria / Iraq would take an army unheard of. The US had some 200 to 300 thousand troops for Gulf War 2. Poured billions after billions each year, and all they can secure is a Green Zone in Iraq. You are talking about an undertaking, so grand in scale, and so expensive, that it will bankrupt the Western Civilization.

And this is just one region of the world. What about Libya, what about Sudan / south Sudan, what about other parts of middle east, Africa?

And lets just be very positive, and it will stop ISIS there. What stops ISIS from moving to another region and do the exact same thing? Remember, groups like ISIS is tiny comparing to US/European war machinery, and exceptionally mobile.

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Armchair_Politician

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Re: Abbott’s clarity is creating anxiety for Turnbull
Reply #22 - Nov 19^th, 2015 at 11:54am

Maqqa wrote on Nov 19^th, 2015 at 11:33am:

Armchair_Politician wrote on Nov 19^th, 2015 at 8:51am:

____ wrote on Nov 19^th, 2015 at 8:46am:

Not having troops in Syria is logical and nothing to do with the harping hard right.

As much as the daily terror wants to create a storm in a tea cup so to undermine Turnbull, the majority of Australian will oppose the conservatives warmongering.

Because the bombing campaign by warplanes has been so effective, hasn't it?

It's ineffective because the US has decreased it from 1000 sorties per day to 15 per day

There are reports some of the 15 bombers come back with their bomb load still intact

Why? Because US changed it's Rules of Engagement. This is why I started a thread on this

I am not defending Greens - all I am saying is compare apples with apples

It's been reduced to 15 sorties a day because ISIS leaders are using civilians as human shields. Cowards, the lot of them.

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Armchair_Politician

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Re: Abbott’s clarity is creating anxiety for Turnbull
Reply #23 - Nov 19^th, 2015 at 11:55am

tickleandrose wrote on Nov 19^th, 2015 at 11:38am:

Re Armchair & others

More boots on the ground will just simply mean more casualities for our soldiers.

It will change absolutely nothing.

To secure the entire area in the regions that you speak of - Syria / Iraq would take an army unheard of. The US had some 200 to 300 thousand troops for Gulf War 2. Poured billions after billions each year, and all they can secure is a Green Zone in Iraq. You are talking about an undertaking, so grand in scale, and so expensive, that it will bankrupt the Western Civilization.

And this is just one region of the world. What about Libya, what about Sudan / south Sudan, what about other parts of middle east, Africa?

And lets just be very positive, and it will stop ISIS there. What stops ISIS from moving to another region and do the exact same thing? Remember, groups like ISIS is tiny comparing to US/European war machinery, and exceptionally mobile.

They don't have to secure all of Syria or all of Iraq. Just the areas in which ISIS are entrenched.

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Karnal

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Re: Abbott’s clarity is creating anxiety for Turnbull
Reply #24 - Nov 19^th, 2015 at 11:55am

cods wrote on Nov 19^th, 2015 at 10:39am:

Karnal wrote on Nov 19^th, 2015 at 10:28am:

Armchair_Politician wrote on Nov 19^th, 2015 at 10:07am:

America has a history of pulling out too soon. They celebrated too soon for victory in Iraq then pulled out before Iraqi security forces were ready to take over. The same is happening in Afghanistan. By comparison, when Howard lead Australia against Indonesia over the independence of East Timor, we saw the birth of a prosperous, free, democratic brand new country right on our doorstep. Relations with Indonesia were strained due to the presence of Australian troops, but nothing worse. I reckon if Australia had lead the planning of operations in Syria with Howard as PM, we'd be seeing a far different result - a far more desirable result.

The US was in Iraq for twice the length of WWI, Armchair. The problems in Iraq are not to do with any lack of US involvement, but the decisions they made during the occupation. The biggest mistake they made was ousting the Ba'athists (or ex-Ba'athists) from positions of power. Many of those Ba'athists went elsewhere, including ISIL. They took their weapons and their connections. And they took their grievances.

Howard wasn't involved in the post-war planning. But he was an active member of the so-called Coalition of the Willing. His decision to commit to the invasion of Iraq was the biggest folly the world has seen this century. Not only did it destroy any semblance of security in the Middle East, it saw the US lose its grip on power. It saw a trillion added to the US deficit, and for nothing. The result of the Iraq invasion was the creation of ISIS.

And this is why Obama is so "weak" today. The US has lost its grip on both hard and soft power in the Middle East. This has created a vacuum Iran and now Russia has jumped in to fill.

the trouble is karmal....you are saying that in hindsight...

when we all know Hussein is dead.. so we have no idea what IRAQ would be like or what he would have done.. when it comes to ISIS....had IRAQ not been invaded??..

do you think HE would have attacked ISIS or welcomed them???????..

we will never know will we.......the world could be even more unsafe.....its just a thought. Sad

No, Cods, we know. The invasion of Iraq was the second invasion. George Bush Snr deliberately left Saddam in power to avoid exactly the problems the world is facing now.

Bush Jnr's Iraqi candidates for the Iraqi leadership proved unpopular and unable to govern. The US held elections off for 3 years for this very reason. Basically, they had no post-occupation strategy. Cobbling together political and ethnic alliances proved almost impossible. A number of candidates were assassinated. The US were forced to rely, as they always do, on a corrupt regime. Worse, they were forced to rely on a Shia-backed leadership that alienated the rest of the country.

Hence, ISIS.

Not only was this predicted by talking heads all over the world in the lead-up to the invasion of Iraq, it was predicted by George Bush Snr, who left Saddam in charge for this very reason.

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Armchair_Politician

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Re: Abbott’s clarity is creating anxiety for Turnbull
Reply #25 - Nov 19^th, 2015 at 11:59am

Karnal wrote on Nov 19^th, 2015 at 11:55am:

cods wrote on Nov 19^th, 2015 at 10:39am:

Karnal wrote on Nov 19^th, 2015 at 10:28am:

Armchair_Politician wrote on Nov 19^th, 2015 at 10:07am:

America has a history of pulling out too soon. They celebrated too soon for victory in Iraq then pulled out before Iraqi security forces were ready to take over. The same is happening in Afghanistan. By comparison, when Howard lead Australia against Indonesia over the independence of East Timor, we saw the birth of a prosperous, free, democratic brand new country right on our doorstep. Relations with Indonesia were strained due to the presence of Australian troops, but nothing worse. I reckon if Australia had lead the planning of operations in Syria with Howard as PM, we'd be seeing a far different result - a far more desirable result.

The US was in Iraq for twice the length of WWI, Armchair. The problems in Iraq are not to do with any lack of US involvement, but the decisions they made during the occupation. The biggest mistake they made was ousting the Ba'athists (or ex-Ba'athists) from positions of power. Many of those Ba'athists went elsewhere, including ISIL. They took their weapons and their connections. And they took their grievances.

Howard wasn't involved in the post-war planning. But he was an active member of the so-called Coalition of the Willing. His decision to commit to the invasion of Iraq was the biggest folly the world has seen this century. Not only did it destroy any semblance of security in the Middle East, it saw the US lose its grip on power. It saw a trillion added to the US deficit, and for nothing. The result of the Iraq invasion was the creation of ISIS.

And this is why Obama is so "weak" today. The US has lost its grip on both hard and soft power in the Middle East. This has created a vacuum Iran and now Russia has jumped in to fill.

the trouble is karmal....you are saying that in hindsight...

when we all know Hussein is dead.. so we have no idea what IRAQ would be like or what he would have done.. when it comes to ISIS....had IRAQ not been invaded??..

do you think HE would have attacked ISIS or welcomed them???????..

we will never know will we.......the world could be even more unsafe.....its just a thought. Sad

No, Cods, we know. The invasion of Iraq was the second invasion. George Bush Snr deliberately left Saddam in power to avoid exactly the problems the world is facing now.

Bush Jnr's Iraqi candidates for the Iraqi leadership proved unpopular and unable to govern. The US held elections off for 3 years for this very reason. Basically, they had no post-occupation strategy. Cobbling together political and ethnic alliances proved almost impossible. A number of candidates were assassinated. The US were forced to rely, as they always do, on a corrupt regime. Worse, they were forced to rely on a Shia-backed leadership that alienated the rest of the country.

Hence, ISIS.

Not only was this predicted by talking heads all over the world in the lead-up to the invasion of Iraq, it was predicted by George Bush Snr, who left Saddam in charge for this very reason.

Therein lies the problem with Islam. It is so bitterly divided between Shia and Sunni. It's like the Catholic Church going to war against the Anglican Church.

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Karnal

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Re: Abbott’s clarity is creating anxiety for Turnbull
Reply #26 - Nov 19^th, 2015 at 12:07pm

Armchair_Politician wrote on Nov 19^th, 2015 at 11:59am:

Karnal wrote on Nov 19^th, 2015 at 11:55am:

cods wrote on Nov 19^th, 2015 at 10:39am:

Karnal wrote on Nov 19^th, 2015 at 10:28am:

Armchair_Politician wrote on Nov 19^th, 2015 at 10:07am:

America has a history of pulling out too soon. They celebrated too soon for victory in Iraq then pulled out before Iraqi security forces were ready to take over. The same is happening in Afghanistan. By comparison, when Howard lead Australia against Indonesia over the independence of East Timor, we saw the birth of a prosperous, free, democratic brand new country right on our doorstep. Relations with Indonesia were strained due to the presence of Australian troops, but nothing worse. I reckon if Australia had lead the planning of operations in Syria with Howard as PM, we'd be seeing a far different result - a far more desirable result.

The US was in Iraq for twice the length of WWI, Armchair. The problems in Iraq are not to do with any lack of US involvement, but the decisions they made during the occupation. The biggest mistake they made was ousting the Ba'athists (or ex-Ba'athists) from positions of power. Many of those Ba'athists went elsewhere, including ISIL. They took their weapons and their connections. And they took their grievances.

Howard wasn't involved in the post-war planning. But he was an active member of the so-called Coalition of the Willing. His decision to commit to the invasion of Iraq was the biggest folly the world has seen this century. Not only did it destroy any semblance of security in the Middle East, it saw the US lose its grip on power. It saw a trillion added to the US deficit, and for nothing. The result of the Iraq invasion was the creation of ISIS.

And this is why Obama is so "weak" today. The US has lost its grip on both hard and soft power in the Middle East. This has created a vacuum Iran and now Russia has jumped in to fill.

the trouble is karmal....you are saying that in hindsight...

when we all know Hussein is dead.. so we have no idea what IRAQ would be like or what he would have done.. when it comes to ISIS....had IRAQ not been invaded??..

do you think HE would have attacked ISIS or welcomed them???????..

we will never know will we.......the world could be even more unsafe.....its just a thought. Sad

No, Cods, we know. The invasion of Iraq was the second invasion. George Bush Snr deliberately left Saddam in power to avoid exactly the problems the world is facing now.

Bush Jnr's Iraqi candidates for the Iraqi leadership proved unpopular and unable to govern. The US held elections off for 3 years for this very reason. Basically, they had no post-occupation strategy. Cobbling together political and ethnic alliances proved almost impossible. A number of candidates were assassinated. The US were forced to rely, as they always do, on a corrupt regime. Worse, they were forced to rely on a Shia-backed leadership that alienated the rest of the country.

Hence, ISIS.

Not only was this predicted by talking heads all over the world in the lead-up to the invasion of Iraq, it was predicted by George Bush Snr, who left Saddam in charge for this very reason.

Therein lies the problem with Islam. It is so bitterly divided between Shia and Sunni. It's like the Catholic Church going to war against the Anglican Church.

If this is what you believe, why would you invade a country and remove a secular regime to facilitate such a division?

A boost to the arms industry? A boost in the polls? A bit of fun?

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Maqqa

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Re: Abbott’s clarity is creating anxiety for Turnbull
Reply #27 - Nov 19^th, 2015 at 12:08pm

Armchair_Politician wrote on Nov 19^th, 2015 at 11:54am:

It's been reduced to 15 sorties a day because ISIS leaders are using civilians as human shields. Cowards, the lot of them.

And this is why I came up with the Rules of Engagement thread

How do we know the human shield are not ISIS?

Like my Vietnam War thread - how do you tell the difference between ISIS and Syrian civilians?

First step is Assad then ISIS - but that could be interchangeable

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Bill 14% is not the alcohol content of that wine. It's your poll number

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tickleandrose

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Re: Abbott’s clarity is creating anxiety for Turnbull
Reply #28 - Nov 19^th, 2015 at 12:12pm

Armchair_Politician wrote on Nov 19^th, 2015 at 11:55am:

tickleandrose wrote on Nov 19^th, 2015 at 11:38am:

Re Armchair & others

More boots on the ground will just simply mean more casualities for our soldiers.

It will change absolutely nothing.

To secure the entire area in the regions that you speak of - Syria / Iraq would take an army unheard of. The US had some 200 to 300 thousand troops for Gulf War 2. Poured billions after billions each year, and all they can secure is a Green Zone in Iraq. You are talking about an undertaking, so grand in scale, and so expensive, that it will bankrupt the Western Civilization.

And this is just one region of the world. What about Libya, what about Sudan / south Sudan, what about other parts of middle east, Africa?

And lets just be very positive, and it will stop ISIS there. What stops ISIS from moving to another region and do the exact same thing? Remember, groups like ISIS is tiny comparing to US/European war machinery, and exceptionally mobile.

They don't have to secure all of Syria or all of Iraq. Just the areas in which ISIS are entrenched.

Like I said ISIS would just go underground, and spawn out elsewhere. They are highly mobile, they can be borderless like Al Aqaeda. Modern warfares are often asymetrical.

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Armchair_Politician

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Re: Abbott’s clarity is creating anxiety for Turnbull
Reply #29 - Nov 19^th, 2015 at 12:14pm

Maqqa wrote on Nov 19^th, 2015 at 12:08pm:

Armchair_Politician wrote on Nov 19^th, 2015 at 11:54am:

It's been reduced to 15 sorties a day because ISIS leaders are using civilians as human shields. Cowards, the lot of them.

And this is why I came up with the Rules of Engagement thread

How do we know the human shield are not ISIS?

Like my Vietnam War thread - how do you tell the difference between ISIS and Syrian civilians?

First step is Assad then ISIS - but that could be interchangeable

In towns like Raqqa, for example, they just about all are ISIS family members, supporters or sympathisers. Everyone else has fled in fear of their lives. I, for one, wouldn't have any problem with them bombing ISIS compounds - even those with women and children. All that means is that fewer kids are going to grow up to be assholes like their fathers.

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Poll
Question: Is Abbott White anting Turnbull
Yes 1 (20.0%) Most definitely 1 (20.0%) Yo bro 0 (0.0%) All the above 3 (60.0%) Total votes: 5 « Created by: skippy. on: Nov 19^th, 2015 at 4:38pm »