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Abbott’s clarity is creating anxiety for Turnbull (Read 4067 times)

Karnal

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Re: Abbott’s clarity is creating anxiety for Turnbull
Reply #30 - Nov 19^th, 2015 at 12:16pm

tickleandrose wrote on Nov 19^th, 2015 at 12:12pm:

Armchair_Politician wrote on Nov 19^th, 2015 at 11:55am:

tickleandrose wrote on Nov 19^th, 2015 at 11:38am:

Re Armchair & others

More boots on the ground will just simply mean more casualities for our soldiers.

It will change absolutely nothing.

To secure the entire area in the regions that you speak of - Syria / Iraq would take an army unheard of. The US had some 200 to 300 thousand troops for Gulf War 2. Poured billions after billions each year, and all they can secure is a Green Zone in Iraq. You are talking about an undertaking, so grand in scale, and so expensive, that it will bankrupt the Western Civilization.

And this is just one region of the world. What about Libya, what about Sudan / south Sudan, what about other parts of middle east, Africa?

And lets just be very positive, and it will stop ISIS there. What stops ISIS from moving to another region and do the exact same thing? Remember, groups like ISIS is tiny comparing to US/European war machinery, and exceptionally mobile.

They don't have to secure all of Syria or all of Iraq. Just the areas in which ISIS are entrenched.

Like I said ISIS would just go underground, and spawn out elsewhere. They are highly mobile, they can be borderless like Al Aqaeda. Modern warfares are often asymetrical.

Sure, but we're dealing with a genocidal regime. Surely the global community has a responsibility to those ISIL is placing in danger.

As Maqqa points out, killing those civilians off through bombing or a ground war is not a solution to this problem.

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Karnal

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Re: Abbott’s clarity is creating anxiety for Turnbull
Reply #31 - Nov 19^th, 2015 at 12:26pm

Armchair_Politician wrote on Nov 19^th, 2015 at 12:14pm:

Maqqa wrote on Nov 19^th, 2015 at 12:08pm:

Armchair_Politician wrote on Nov 19^th, 2015 at 11:54am:

It's been reduced to 15 sorties a day because ISIS leaders are using civilians as human shields. Cowards, the lot of them.

And this is why I came up with the Rules of Engagement thread

How do we know the human shield are not ISIS?

Like my Vietnam War thread - how do you tell the difference between ISIS and Syrian civilians?

First step is Assad then ISIS - but that could be interchangeable

In towns like Raqqa, for example, they just about all are ISIS family members, supporters or sympathisers. Everyone else has fled in fear of their lives..

The burnt out cars left on roads near the border are a warning. ISIL are killing those who attempt to flee. Those who don't are subject to the litany of horrors ISIL have in store for those who rebel. Young men who refuse to join the jihad have been detained and tortured. Recently, one 19 year old who refused to join up had his right hand and foot cut off in the local market.

This is how ISIL deals with those it governs. Those in ISIL-held territory are not all happy converts to medieval justice. Many in its ranks are themselves captives.

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Maqqa

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Re: Abbott’s clarity is creating anxiety for Turnbull
Reply #32 - Nov 19^th, 2015 at 12:33pm

Armchair_Politician wrote on Nov 19^th, 2015 at 12:14pm:

Maqqa wrote on Nov 19^th, 2015 at 12:08pm:

Armchair_Politician wrote on Nov 19^th, 2015 at 11:54am:

It's been reduced to 15 sorties a day because ISIS leaders are using civilians as human shields. Cowards, the lot of them.

And this is why I came up with the Rules of Engagement thread

How do we know the human shield are not ISIS?

Like my Vietnam War thread - how do you tell the difference between ISIS and Syrian civilians?

First step is Assad then ISIS - but that could be interchangeable

In towns like Raqqa, for example, they just about all are ISIS family members, supporters or sympathisers. Everyone else has fled in fear of their lives. I, for one, wouldn't have any problem with them bombing ISIS compounds - even those with women and children. All that means is that fewer kids are going to grow up to be assholes like their fathers.

Yes but the Obama administration has a view that women and children must be assumed to be innocent

So even if the terrorist men are close by - you don't bomb

We must change the rules of engagement i.e. if we see a target - bomb the sheeeet out of it

Bill 14% is not the alcohol content of that wine. It's your poll number

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John Smith

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Re: Abbott’s clarity is creating anxiety for Turnbull
Reply #33 - Nov 19^th, 2015 at 12:43pm

Maqqa wrote on Nov 19^th, 2015 at 12:33pm:

Yes but the Obama administration has a view that women and children must be assumed to be innocent

So even if the terrorist men are close by - you don't bomb

We must change the rules of engagement i.e. if we see a target - bomb the sheeeet out of it

so we go there in the first place because they are murdering and torturing civilians and trying to force them to join their crusade, and you feel the west needs to defend these people ..... and your solution is to bomb the sheeet out of all of them? including those same civilians you went there to defend?

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Our esteemed leader:
I hope that bitch who was running their brothels for them gets raped with a cactus.

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Maqqa

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Re: Abbott’s clarity is creating anxiety for Turnbull
Reply #34 - Nov 19^th, 2015 at 12:50pm

Well jack sheeet

I anticipated these questions of yours which is why I posted several thread about Rules of Engagement and Can we learn from Vietnam War

In Vietnam - how do you tell the difference between a Viet Cong and a South Vietnamese. The Americans can't but the South Vietnamese could!!

Same as Syria - you can't tell the difference between ISIS and Syrian civilians. But the Syrians civilians is more than likely know who ISIS are!

Therefore we have to help the the Syrian civilians - who control the Syrian civilians? ASSAD. But Assad is supporting ISIS.

Bill 14% is not the alcohol content of that wine. It's your poll number

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Karnal

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Re: Abbott’s clarity is creating anxiety for Turnbull
Reply #35 - Nov 19^th, 2015 at 12:51pm

Maqqa wrote on Nov 19^th, 2015 at 12:33pm:

Armchair_Politician wrote on Nov 19^th, 2015 at 12:14pm:

Maqqa wrote on Nov 19^th, 2015 at 12:08pm:

Armchair_Politician wrote on Nov 19^th, 2015 at 11:54am:

It's been reduced to 15 sorties a day because ISIS leaders are using civilians as human shields. Cowards, the lot of them.

And this is why I came up with the Rules of Engagement thread

How do we know the human shield are not ISIS?

Like my Vietnam War thread - how do you tell the difference between ISIS and Syrian civilians?

First step is Assad then ISIS - but that could be interchangeable

In towns like Raqqa, for example, they just about all are ISIS family members, supporters or sympathisers. Everyone else has fled in fear of their lives. I, for one, wouldn't have any problem with them bombing ISIS compounds - even those with women and children. All that means is that fewer kids are going to grow up to be assholes like their fathers.

Yes but the Obama administration has a view that women and children must be assumed to be innocent

So even if the terrorist men are close by - you don't bomb

We must change the rules of engagement i.e. if we see a target - bomb the sheeeet out of it

Maqqa, you don't even know what a "target" is. The US is not at war with Syria or Iraq, so the "rules of engagement" don't apply. Killing civilians on mass is not an option for the US. If it has learned anything from the invasion of Iraq, it is to stay well away from civilians.

I'm not too sure of the situation on the ground in Iraq and Syria, so I wouldn't dream of lecturing the US on "the rules of engagement". But I do know that in war, there are rules, among them the Geneva Convention.

I also know that if your objective is to protect a civilian population, you don't "bomb the sheet out of it".

To me, that just seems like common sense.

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tickleandrose

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Re: Abbott’s clarity is creating anxiety for Turnbull
Reply #36 - Nov 19^th, 2015 at 12:51pm

Maqqa wrote on Nov 19^th, 2015 at 12:33pm:

Armchair_Politician wrote on Nov 19^th, 2015 at 12:14pm:

Maqqa wrote on Nov 19^th, 2015 at 12:08pm:

Armchair_Politician wrote on Nov 19^th, 2015 at 11:54am:

It's been reduced to 15 sorties a day because ISIS leaders are using civilians as human shields. Cowards, the lot of them.

And this is why I came up with the Rules of Engagement thread

How do we know the human shield are not ISIS?

Like my Vietnam War thread - how do you tell the difference between ISIS and Syrian civilians?

First step is Assad then ISIS - but that could be interchangeable

In towns like Raqqa, for example, they just about all are ISIS family members, supporters or sympathisers. Everyone else has fled in fear of their lives. I, for one, wouldn't have any problem with them bombing ISIS compounds - even those with women and children. All that means is that fewer kids are going to grow up to be assholes like their fathers.

Yes but the Obama administration has a view that women and children must be assumed to be innocent

So even if the terrorist men are close by - you don't bomb

We must change the rules of engagement i.e. if we see a target - bomb the sheeeet out of it

If you look at media coming from different parts of the world other than CNN, you will find that the US drones are already doing this. And they have a name for it already "collateral damage". And I believe there is actually a guideline on the type and priority of the target, and 'acceptable' collateral damage.

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tickleandrose

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Re: Abbott’s clarity is creating anxiety for Turnbull
Reply #37 - Nov 19^th, 2015 at 12:56pm

Maqqa wrote on Nov 19^th, 2015 at 12:50pm:

Well jack sheeet

I anticipated these questions of yours which is why I posted several thread about Rules of Engagement and Can we learn from Vietnam War

In Vietnam - how do you tell the difference between a Viet Cong and a South Vietnamese. The Americans can't but the South Vietnamese could!!

Same as Syria - you can't tell the difference between ISIS and Syrian civilians. But the Syrians civilians is more than likely know who ISIS are!

Therefore we have to help the the Syrian civilians - who control the Syrian civilians? ASSAD. But Assad is supporting ISIS.

And lets talk about Vietnam War. Indescriminate killings by US warplane, and use of Agent Orange in Jungles had caused dramatic loss of moral in the US army, decrease in political support for the war at home, and ultimately, it lost the support of the general population, leading to loss of war in Vietnam - undeclared of course.

The exact same thing will happen in Syria if you repeat the history again.

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John Smith

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Re: Abbott’s clarity is creating anxiety for Turnbull
Reply #38 - Nov 19^th, 2015 at 12:57pm

Maqqa wrote on Nov 19^th, 2015 at 12:50pm:

Therefore we have to help the the Syrian civilians -

you don't want to help them, you want to bomb the crap out of them. Grow up.

Isis isn't an country you can bomb to smithereens. It's like saying lets bomb all the greenies. How can you tell a greenie from a lib from 30 000 feet up in the air?

Our esteemed leader:
I hope that bitch who was running their brothels for them gets raped with a cactus.

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Maqqa

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Re: Abbott’s clarity is creating anxiety for Turnbull
Reply #39 - Nov 19^th, 2015 at 1:02pm

tickleandrose wrote on Nov 19^th, 2015 at 12:56pm:

And lets talk about Vietnam War. Indescriminate killings by US warplane, and use of Agent Orange in Jungles had caused dramatic loss of moral in the US army, decrease in political support for the war at home, and ultimately, it lost the support of the general population, leading to loss of war in Vietnam - undeclared of course.

The exact same thing will happen in Syria if you repeat the history again.

The US pulled out of Vietnam and they pulled out of the Middle East

The difference is the Vietnamese didn't send suicide bombers to the US and look the Vietnamese economic growth now despite not having the same oil resources like Syria

So the ideology of the Vietnamese and the Syrian are different

Bill 14% is not the alcohol content of that wine. It's your poll number

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Karnal

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Re: Abbott’s clarity is creating anxiety for Turnbull
Reply #40 - Nov 19^th, 2015 at 1:03pm

John Smith wrote on Nov 19^th, 2015 at 12:57pm:

Maqqa wrote on Nov 19^th, 2015 at 12:50pm:

Therefore we have to help the the Syrian civilians -

you don't want to help them, you want to bomb the crap out of them. Grow up.

Isis isn't an country you can bomb to smithereens. It's like saying lets bomb all the greenies. How can you tell a greenie from a lib from 30 000 feet up in the air?

Well, you can't, but the US aren't adverse to giving it a go. Remember, they wanted revenge against al Qaida in 2001, so they invaded Iraq.

They missed Saudi Arabia by about 3 countries, but at least they tried. If we get rid of these messy rules of engagement, who knows?

Maybe we could aim for ISIS and accidentally hit Iran.

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Karnal

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Re: Abbott’s clarity is creating anxiety for Turnbull
Reply #41 - Nov 19^th, 2015 at 1:05pm

Maqqa wrote on Nov 19^th, 2015 at 1:02pm:

tickleandrose wrote on Nov 19^th, 2015 at 12:56pm:

And lets talk about Vietnam War. Indescriminate killings by US warplane, and use of Agent Orange in Jungles had caused dramatic loss of moral in the US army, decrease in political support for the war at home, and ultimately, it lost the support of the general population, leading to loss of war in Vietnam - undeclared of course.

The exact same thing will happen in Syria if you repeat the history again.

The US pulled out of Vietnam and they pulled out of the Middle East

True, Maqqa. They might have pulled out because the North Vietnamese captured Saigon, but we have to look for the positives here.

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John Smith

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Re: Abbott’s clarity is creating anxiety for Turnbull
Reply #42 - Nov 19^th, 2015 at 1:06pm

Karnal wrote on Nov 19^th, 2015 at 1:03pm:

Well, you can't, but the US aren't adverse to giving it a go. Remember, they wanted revenge against al Qaida in 2001, so they invaded Iraq.

They missed Saudi Arabia by about 3 countries, but at least they tried. If we get rid of these messy rules of engagement, who knows?

Maybe we could aim for ISIS and accidentally hit Iran.

its these rules of engagement that are convincing more and more people to join those farkwits (Isis).

Our esteemed leader:
I hope that bitch who was running their brothels for them gets raped with a cactus.

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Maqqa

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Re: Abbott’s clarity is creating anxiety for Turnbull
Reply #43 - Nov 19^th, 2015 at 1:06pm

John Smith wrote on Nov 19^th, 2015 at 12:57pm:

Maqqa wrote on Nov 19^th, 2015 at 12:50pm:

Therefore we have to help the the Syrian civilians -

you don't want to help them, you want to bomb the crap out of them. Grow up.

Isis isn't an country you can bomb to smithereens. It's like saying lets bomb all the greenies. How can you tell a greenie from a lib from 30 000 feet up in the air?

ISIS declared it's own caliphate in Raqqa

In terms of bombing the civilians - if there is a high value target and civilians are in the way. I am happy to sacrifice Syrian civilians to protect the West

Bill 14% is not the alcohol content of that wine. It's your poll number

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Maqqa

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Re: Abbott’s clarity is creating anxiety for Turnbull
Reply #44 - Nov 19^th, 2015 at 1:07pm

John Smith wrote on Nov 19^th, 2015 at 1:06pm:

Karnal wrote on Nov 19^th, 2015 at 1:03pm:

Well, you can't, but the US aren't adverse to giving it a go. Remember, they wanted revenge against al Qaida in 2001, so they invaded Iraq.

They missed Saudi Arabia by about 3 countries, but at least they tried. If we get rid of these messy rules of engagement, who knows?

Maybe we could aim for ISIS and accidentally hit Iran.

its these rules of engagement that are convincing more and more people to join those farkwits (Isis).

People are joining ISIS anyway - I have a thread called "Verse of the Sword" that explains this

Bill 14% is not the alcohol content of that wine. It's your poll number

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