Australian Politics Forum - Is economic growth good per se?

Karnal

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Re: Is economic growth good per se?
Reply #15 - Dec 2^nd, 2015 at 8:48pm

Ajax wrote on Dec 2^nd, 2015 at 5:18pm:

That is a hard question to answer solely based on growth, which neo-liberalism teaches us is the pinnacle of business.

Of course growth is good it leads to prosperity for most of the people in that country where growth is being experienced.

The problem is the current economic climate advantages corporations rather than the countries these corporations have established themselves in.

For example our jobs are slowly being transferred to low cost centres in India and China, these days corporations want their headquarters to be here in Australia so there CEO's and upper management can live the grand old life in the midst of civilization while all the work gets done in these low cost centres.

Also some of these corporations want the work or services to be done in Australia with a foreign work force.

Now I don't know about you guys but I think if the business claims to be Australian it should be based in Australia with an Australian work force.

Another thing, our government should p!ss of the privately owned Rothschild Central bank (RBA) and form its own.

Where it can cut money for the economy and its consumers without having to pay interest on that money, our government has the power to do this, yet it lets our RBA be owned by international bankers who them control our country.

Geez I could go on but this question is more than the growth of the economy, its like taking an equation out of a formulae ten miles long, unfortunately you have to deal with the whole rather than one small piece.

We no longer have any way of achieving a foothold for Australia or Australian jobs, Ajax. Tariffs are gone, we’ve got a floating dollar, we have a privatised - and globalised - economy.

No.worries. This just requires a new focus. While the nation state still exists, production is global. Those who manufacture our goods, grow much of our food and even answer our phones are foreign.

This raises a fundamental ethical question. Why should they be paid less that us? Why is our entire economy based on cheap Chinese, Bangladeshi, Indian and Philippino labour when we have the second best standard of living in the world?

Nation states are no longer economic units. In fact, they never were. Australia has always been part of an empire, an arms race, and now a region. Our goods come from dollar a day labourers in Asia, just as during the British empire, they were made by triangular trade - slave-picked cotton from Amerika, Indian-manufactured cloth and European-sewn clothes.

The only way to run a world is to share the goods, the labour, the energy, and the space.

To be honest, I’m not sure if this will ever happen. The only way the world has ever been run is through slavery, in one form or another.

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beer

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Re: Is economic growth good per se?
Reply #16 - Dec 2^nd, 2015 at 9:13pm

perceptions_now wrote on Dec 2^nd, 2015 at 7:36pm:

beer wrote on Dec 2^nd, 2015 at 6:52pm:

perceptions_now wrote on Dec 2^nd, 2015 at 6:22pm:

Well, let me simply state that everything has limits, as we are now in the process of finding out, on a "few" fronts!

Yes, everything has a limit, but doen't mean you find and stop there. You can find new way, new direction from it. When you were young, did you think about there will be something called Google? the best thing/limit is a big library.

Sorry, I was a bit rushed earlier!
I should have mentioned that the major Drivers of Economic Growth, particularly in the Modern era, were -
1) Demographics - Continuing Population Growth, which was the number 1 driver of Economic Growth, as it was the backstop that ensured Growth would always return.
2) Energy - This has also been a major driver, given that it became readily available, at cheap prices & Supply kept up with Population Growth.
3) Climate - We have had a substantially "Goldilocks Global Climate", for the last 200 years & that has enabled the Population Growth to expand, at very high levels.
4) Innovation - This was also a major driver, enabling more to be done with less. However, like everything, there are limits to doing more with less, even in Economics, as we will now find out.

All other Economic measures, revolve around the above 4 basics!

That said, innovation is now our last, great hope, BUT I would not rely on Innovation, for last minute outcomes, as good public policy & at this point there is nothing on the horizon, which would remotely suggest a good outcome!

So, is economic growth good per se?
The likely answer is, it had its place, But now it is likely to be a fading memory!

Thanks for the above thoughtful comments, but I can not agree with points other than demographics.

All other 3 can be counted with knowledge(social/scientific)/technologies/innovation, only the demographics is driven by instinct.

1. Definition of energy has been changed time by time, price of energy has changed more often.
400 years ago, I guess even coal was not really widely used as energy source for production activities until steam engine was invented. Oil got more important only after car and chemical industry developed. Nowadays, we have more broader definition of energy which can be used, e.g. nuclear power, solar energy.
The price of energy is also driven by technology improvement, most recent example was excavation of shale gas. Thanks to it, oil is below $50 now.

2. I don't know what the theory behind recent 200 years of climate conditions, I guess what you mean was food supply or living related living conditions. Without farming technology improvement like widely used fertilizers and insecticide, I don't think current climate has too much contribution to food supply. I can took an example how Isrial grows vegetables on desert, how cucumber can be supplied under -20 degrees in greenhouse in Sebiria. Food price actually hasn't grown too much in many years, doesn't matter how bad was the weather in each year. Thanks to modern transportation and storage techs as well. In terms of living, Dubai is a very good example how a million people can live luxury in desert climate, though many poor labors have very bad conditions, but to be able to work there in +50 degrees, it's already a miracle.

3. Innovation is now only in technology, but also in social management. There are lots of work process and daily living habits did not exist 50 years ago. e.g shopping online, international travel was as cheap as today, laws take care of more details in daily things, politicians become more difficult to cheat public.

So, I can see it's brighter in tomorrow, people need to be optimistic but not be fooled by those politicians. Terrorism comparing to ww2, cold war and today's environmental challenge, cultural conflicts are just nothing. The world is far from the end and judgement day. The limit of growth is completely not visible in next hundred years, lots of things can be done, very long list.

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Maqqa

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Re: Is economic growth good per se?
Reply #17 - Dec 2^nd, 2015 at 9:19pm

Dnarever wrote on Dec 2^nd, 2015 at 4:16pm:

Sun Tzu wrote on Dec 2^nd, 2015 at 4:02pm:

[ GDP growth% - Productivity growth% ] > Population Growth %

If this doesn't happen society is going backwards.

If productivity growth % > GDP growth %, this implies deflation.

You have 3 variables all with finite limits ? Looks like a recipe that has to end in disaster ?

Guess we are all hoping that we aren't still playing the game when the music stops ?

perception believes world population will decrease to 3-4 billion so that sort of ruin that equation for everyone

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beer

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Re: Is economic growth good per se?
Reply #18 - Dec 2^nd, 2015 at 9:19pm

Karnal wrote on Dec 2^nd, 2015 at 8:48pm:

Ajax wrote on Dec 2^nd, 2015 at 5:18pm:

That is a hard question to answer solely based on growth, which neo-liberalism teaches us is the pinnacle of business.

Of course growth is good it leads to prosperity for most of the people in that country where growth is being experienced.

The problem is the current economic climate advantages corporations rather than the countries these corporations have established themselves in.

For example our jobs are slowly being transferred to low cost centres in India and China, these days corporations want their headquarters to be here in Australia so there CEO's and upper management can live the grand old life in the midst of civilization while all the work gets done in these low cost centres.

Also some of these corporations want the work or services to be done in Australia with a foreign work force.

Now I don't know about you guys but I think if the business claims to be Australian it should be based in Australia with an Australian work force.

Another thing, our government should p!ss of the privately owned Rothschild Central bank (RBA) and form its own.

Where it can cut money for the economy and its consumers without having to pay interest on that money, our government has the power to do this, yet it lets our RBA be owned by international bankers who them control our country.

Geez I could go on but this question is more than the growth of the economy, its like taking an equation out of a formulae ten miles long, unfortunately you have to deal with the whole rather than one small piece.

We no longer have any way of achieving a foothold for Australia or Australian jobs, Ajax. Tariffs are gone, we’ve got a floating dollar, we have a privatised - and globalised - economy.

No.worries. This just requires a new focus. While the nation state still exists, production is global. Those who manufacture our goods, grow much of our food and even answer our phones are foreign.

This raises a fundamental ethical question. Why should they be paid less that us? Why is our entire economy based on cheap Chinese, Bangladeshi, Indian and Philippino labour when we have the second best standard of living in the world?

Nation states are no longer economic units. In fact, they never were. Australia has always been part of an empire, an arms race, and now a region. Our goods come from dollar a day labourers in Asia, just as during the British empire, they were made by triangular trade - slave-picked cotton from Amerika, Indian-manufactured cloth and European-sewn clothes.

The only way to run a world is to share the goods, the labour, the energy, and the space.

To be honest, I’m not sure if this will ever happen. The only way the world has ever been run is through slavery, in one form or another.

Globalization is completely new form of slavery, I fully agree.
Elites from worldwide are uniting to slave all kinds of people from any country, any ethnic group and any religion. You join or not, it's a question.

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Maqqa Gold Member Offline 14% - that low?! Posts: 16000	Re: Is economic growth good per se? Reply #19 - Dec 2^nd, 2015 at 9:41pm You talk about globalisation and slavery But without globalisation there would be less likely chance of these people being employed and it would be even worse than slavery So you prefer that? If so - let's check with these people who are grateful to have a job first
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issuevoter

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Re: Is economic growth good per se?
Reply #20 - Dec 2^nd, 2015 at 9:56pm

beer wrote on Dec 2^nd, 2015 at 6:56pm:

issuevoter wrote on Dec 2^nd, 2015 at 6:50pm:

An ever expanding economy is impossible in a world of finite resources. It seems an unlimited expanding population must pass a point where chaos takes charge. However, no generation has predicted the future with any accuracy.

You forgot moon landing, forgot discovery of America and Austrlia. old way has its limit, but you can always find new way. Up to now, it seems we have not found the limit to create new ways.

I'm so suprised most people in this country has such limited and narrow view. You see, most topics here are religion and terrorism. Or only 1 topic, it's anti-musilm through religious self identifying.

Your confused tenses and syntax make it very difficult to understand your meaning. I did not forget the things you refer to, they are implied.

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beer

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Re: Is economic growth good per se?
Reply #21 - Dec 2^nd, 2015 at 10:02pm

Maqqa wrote on Dec 2^nd, 2015 at 9:41pm:

You talk about globalisation and slavery

But without globalisation there would be less likely chance of these people being employed and it would be even worse than slavery

So you prefer that?

If so - let's check with these people who are grateful to have a job first

I'm not a protester to globalization, but a supporter. But the fact is that is a new form of slavery, that's true.

The world history is a slavery history, only naive people believe they are the boss, but not politicians and super riches, king/queen/pope, etc.

So arguing to keep a dish washing job in Australia or in China, it is meaningless discussion.
People lose jobs in developed countries to China is because: first their currencies are over valued, secondly Chinese currency is too much lower valued, that's it. The valuer is "global elites' union", this setting benefits only them.

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beer

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Re: Is economic growth good per se?
Reply #22 - Dec 2^nd, 2015 at 10:04pm

issuevoter wrote on Dec 2^nd, 2015 at 9:56pm:

beer wrote on Dec 2^nd, 2015 at 6:56pm:

issuevoter wrote on Dec 2^nd, 2015 at 6:50pm:

An ever expanding economy is impossible in a world of finite resources. It seems an unlimited expanding population must pass a point where chaos takes charge. However, no generation has predicted the future with any accuracy.

You forgot moon landing, forgot discovery of America and Austrlia. old way has its limit, but you can always find new way. Up to now, it seems we have not found the limit to create new ways.

I'm so suprised most people in this country has such limited and narrow view. You see, most topics here are religion and terrorism. Or only 1 topic, it's anti-musilm through religious self identifying.

Your confused tenses and syntax make it very difficult to understand your meaning. I did not forget the things you refer to, they are implied.

Thanks to point it out, tense is not in my native language, so it's a hard part for me.

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Maqqa

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Re: Is economic growth good per se?
Reply #23 - Dec 2^nd, 2015 at 10:06pm

beer wrote on Dec 2^nd, 2015 at 10:02pm:

Maqqa wrote on Dec 2^nd, 2015 at 9:41pm:

You talk about globalisation and slavery

But without globalisation there would be less likely chance of these people being employed and it would be even worse than slavery

So you prefer that?

If so - let's check with these people who are grateful to have a job first

I'm not a protester to globalization, but a supporter. But the fact is that is a new form of slavery, that's true.

The world history is a slavery history, only naive people believe they are the boss, but not politicians and super riches, king/queen/pope, etc.

So arguing to keep a dish washing job in Australia or in China, it is meaningless discussion.
People lose jobs in developed countries to China is because: first their currencies are over valued, secondly Chinese currency is too much lower valued, that's it. The valuer is "global elites' union", this setting benefits only them.

But these people's lives are better off

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Bill 14% is not the alcohol content of that wine. It's your poll number

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Karnal

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Re: Is economic growth good per se?
Reply #24 - Dec 2^nd, 2015 at 10:06pm

Maqqa wrote on Dec 2^nd, 2015 at 9:41pm:

You talk about globalisation and slavery

But without globalisation there would be less likely chance of these people being employed and it would be even worse than slavery

So you prefer that?

If so - let's check with these people who are grateful to have a job first

These people?

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Maqqa

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Re: Is economic growth good per se?
Reply #25 - Dec 2^nd, 2015 at 10:08pm

Karnal wrote on Dec 2^nd, 2015 at 10:06pm:

Maqqa wrote on Dec 2^nd, 2015 at 9:41pm:

You talk about globalisation and slavery

But without globalisation there would be less likely chance of these people being employed and it would be even worse than slavery

So you prefer that?

If so - let's check with these people who are grateful to have a job first

These people?

The so-called slaves

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Bill 14% is not the alcohol content of that wine. It's your poll number

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Karnal

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Re: Is economic growth good per se?
Reply #26 - Dec 2^nd, 2015 at 10:15pm

Maqqa wrote on Dec 2^nd, 2015 at 10:08pm:

Karnal wrote on Dec 2^nd, 2015 at 10:06pm:

Maqqa wrote on Dec 2^nd, 2015 at 9:41pm:

You talk about globalisation and slavery

But without globalisation there would be less likely chance of these people being employed and it would be even worse than slavery

So you prefer that?

If so - let's check with these people who are grateful to have a job first

These people?

The so-called slaves

Not us, you mean?

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issuevoter

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Re: Is economic growth good per se?
Reply #27 - Dec 2^nd, 2015 at 10:44pm

Maqqa wrote on Dec 2^nd, 2015 at 9:41pm:

You talk about globalisation and slavery

But without globalisation there would be less likely chance of these people being employed and it would be even worse than slavery

So you prefer that?

If so - let's check with these people who are grateful to have a job first

That reads like a complacent bourgeois simplification to me. So globalization is the panacea of the worlds ecomomic and social woes? Globalisation has always been about cheap labour for industrialists. When we have forgotten how to make anything, cheap goods will get expensive.

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bogarde73

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Re: Is economic growth good per se?
Reply #28 - Dec 3^rd, 2015 at 7:01am

issuevoter wrote on Dec 2^nd, 2015 at 6:50pm:

An ever expanding economy is impossible in a world of finite resources. It seems an unlimited expanding population must pass a point where chaos takes charge. However, no generation has predicted the future with any accuracy.

Two things I would say here:
1. I don't believe in finite resources. How can we ever say we know what resources exist or what combinations of resources will in the future meet expanding needs
2. As the income of the developing world rises, as I think is the case in many places, experience shows us that pop growth slows and I believe this is happening already.

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Karnal

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Re: Is economic growth good per se?
Reply #29 - Dec 3^rd, 2015 at 8:00am

bogarde73 wrote on Dec 3^rd, 2015 at 7:01am:

issuevoter wrote on Dec 2^nd, 2015 at 6:50pm:

An ever expanding economy is impossible in a world of finite resources. It seems an unlimited expanding population must pass a point where chaos takes charge. However, no generation has predicted the future with any accuracy.

Two things I would say here:
1. I don't believe in finite resources. How can we ever say we know what resources exist or what combinations of resources will in the future meet expanding needs
2. As the income of the developing world rises, as I think is the case in many places, experience shows us that pop growth slows and I believe this is happening already.

Resources are finite, Bogie. What’s not finite is ideas.

If we could cultivate renewable energy,.we wouldn’t need any resources at all. We could become a service economy with,yes, endless growth. The internet has made this posdible. Music and films are delivered over the wire. We don’t even need a retail sector anymore.

But we would still require manufactured goods. The problem with out "growth" is that it comes on the back of cheap labour. Eventually, Chinese wages will rise, and there goes all that cheap stuff.

Growth requires our terms of trade to be good. I.e, we need to export more than we import. If we don’t get our economy going after the mining boom, we will become a banana republic agsin.

Nation states have come to specialise. China does manufacturing, the US does patents and intellectual property. The UK still does financial services.

Australia’s days as a mine are numbered.

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