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Is economic growth good per se? (Read 6598 times)
Kytro
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Re: Is economic growth good per se?
Reply #30 - Dec 3rd, 2015 at 8:23am
 
Maqqa wrote on Dec 2nd, 2015 at 9:41pm:
You talk about globalisation and slavery

But without globalisation there would be less likely chance of these people being employed and it would be even worse than slavery

So you prefer that?

If so - let's check with these people who are grateful to have a job first


Globalisation is inevitable, given the conditions that exist (population size, technology etc).

Standards of living are being increased around the world, and while there is exploitation, generally things are improving and people becoming more affluent. That could change though, and it by no means certain.
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beer
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Re: Is economic growth good per se?
Reply #31 - Dec 3rd, 2015 at 8:32am
 
Karnal wrote on Dec 3rd, 2015 at 8:00am:
bogarde73 wrote on Dec 3rd, 2015 at 7:01am:
issuevoter wrote on Dec 2nd, 2015 at 6:50pm:
An ever expanding economy is impossible in a world of finite resources. It seems an unlimited expanding population must pass a point where chaos takes charge. However, no generation has predicted the future with any accuracy.


Two things I would say here:
1. I don't believe in finite resources. How can we ever say we know what resources exist or what combinations of resources will in the future meet expanding needs
2. As the income of the developing world rises, as I think is the case in many places, experience shows us that pop growth slows and I believe this is happening already.


Resources are finite, Bogie. What’s not finite is ideas.

If we could cultivate renewable energy,.we wouldn’t need any resources at all. We could become a service economy with,yes, endless growth. The internet has made this posdible. Music and films are delivered over the wire. We don’t even need a retail sector anymore.

But we would still require manufactured goods. The problem with out "growth" is that it comes on the back of cheap labour. Eventually, Chinese wages will rise, and there goes all that cheap stuff.

Growth requires our terms of trade to be good. I.e, we need to export more than we import. If we don’t get our economy going after the mining boom, we will become a banana republic agsin.

Nation states have come to specialise. China does manufacturing, the US does patents and intellectual property. The UK still does financial services.

Australia’s days as a mine are numbered.


The primary level education is too bad here. How much can a primary school teacher earn? I think not very good, then you can not attract good people to work in this area. Country's resources are all directed to lawyers and doctors kind of jobs. Those jobs don't provide too much real values. You can search for numbers, how many healthcare workers you have per 100,000 population? It's very high even in developed countries. But what's the outcome of their services? I remember the number of total healthcare services in NSW was pretty low. I asked a lawyer about the fees to win a business case. The answer was you never want to get into such a trouble. What? you can not expect any justice here, because you can not afford the legal cost? Then how can then society benefits from legal system? That's why angry people are everywhere, if no justice can be provided efficiently.
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mariacostel
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Re: Is economic growth good per se?
Reply #32 - Dec 3rd, 2015 at 8:53am
 
The 'anti-growth' rhetoric from so many of you mirrors your personal philosophy. How many of you have 'grown' in the last 20 years? Studied anything? Started a business, developed new skills? Or are you just the same person you were 20 years ago, just older?

If you understand and promote personal growth then the concept of economic growth makes perfect sence. But if you stopped growing and improving then you would expect the rest of the world to go in a holding-pattern with you.  But it won't. Ever.
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mariacostel
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Re: Is economic growth good per se?
Reply #33 - Dec 3rd, 2015 at 9:14am
 
beer wrote on Dec 3rd, 2015 at 8:32am:
Karnal wrote on Dec 3rd, 2015 at 8:00am:
bogarde73 wrote on Dec 3rd, 2015 at 7:01am:
issuevoter wrote on Dec 2nd, 2015 at 6:50pm:
An ever expanding economy is impossible in a world of finite resources. It seems an unlimited expanding population must pass a point where chaos takes charge. However, no generation has predicted the future with any accuracy.


Two things I would say here:
1. I don't believe in finite resources. How can we ever say we know what resources exist or what combinations of resources will in the future meet expanding needs
2. As the income of the developing world rises, as I think is the case in many places, experience shows us that pop growth slows and I believe this is happening already.


Resources are finite, Bogie. What’s not finite is ideas.

If we could cultivate renewable energy,.we wouldn’t need any resources at all. We could become a service economy with,yes, endless growth. The internet has made this posdible. Music and films are delivered over the wire. We don’t even need a retail sector anymore.

But we would still require manufactured goods. The problem with out "growth" is that it comes on the back of cheap labour. Eventually, Chinese wages will rise, and there goes all that cheap stuff.

Growth requires our terms of trade to be good. I.e, we need to export more than we import. If we don’t get our economy going after the mining boom, we will become a banana republic agsin.

Nation states have come to specialise. China does manufacturing, the US does patents and intellectual property. The UK still does financial services.

Australia’s days as a mine are numbered.


The primary level education is too bad here. How much can a primary school teacher earn? I think not very good, then you can not attract good people to work in this area. Country's resources are all directed to lawyers and doctors kind of jobs. Those jobs don't provide too much real values. You can search for numbers, how many healthcare workers you have per 100,000 population? It's very high even in developed countries. But what's the outcome of their services? I remember the number of total healthcare services in NSW was pretty low. I asked a lawyer about the fees to win a business case. The answer was you never want to get into such a trouble. What? you can not expect any justice here, because you can not afford the legal cost? Then how can then society benefits from legal system? That's why angry people are everywhere, if no justice can be provided efficiently.



Do you want to try that again, but in English? And when you are sober?
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Maqqa
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Re: Is economic growth good per se?
Reply #34 - Dec 3rd, 2015 at 9:20am
 
issuevoter wrote on Dec 2nd, 2015 at 10:44pm:
Maqqa wrote on Dec 2nd, 2015 at 9:41pm:
You talk about globalisation and slavery

But without globalisation there would be less likely chance of these people being employed and it would be even worse than slavery

So you prefer that?

If so - let's check with these people who are grateful to have a job first


That reads like a complacent bourgeois simplification to me. So globalization is the panacea of the worlds ecomomic and social woes? Globalisation has always been about cheap labour for industrialists. When we have forgotten how to make anything, cheap goods will get expensive.


What's the alternative?

We give them jobs and their lives are better

By panacea you want to bring them up to our standard of living immediately?

That's not going to happen in ANY society!
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beer
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Re: Is economic growth good per se?
Reply #35 - Dec 3rd, 2015 at 9:20am
 
mariacostel wrote on Dec 3rd, 2015 at 9:14am:
beer wrote on Dec 3rd, 2015 at 8:32am:
Karnal wrote on Dec 3rd, 2015 at 8:00am:
bogarde73 wrote on Dec 3rd, 2015 at 7:01am:
issuevoter wrote on Dec 2nd, 2015 at 6:50pm:
An ever expanding economy is impossible in a world of finite resources. It seems an unlimited expanding population must pass a point where chaos takes charge. However, no generation has predicted the future with any accuracy.


Two things I would say here:
1. I don't believe in finite resources. How can we ever say we know what resources exist or what combinations of resources will in the future meet expanding needs
2. As the income of the developing world rises, as I think is the case in many places, experience shows us that pop growth slows and I believe this is happening already.


Resources are finite, Bogie. What’s not finite is ideas.

If we could cultivate renewable energy,.we wouldn’t need any resources at all. We could become a service economy with,yes, endless growth. The internet has made this posdible. Music and films are delivered over the wire. We don’t even need a retail sector anymore.

But we would still require manufactured goods. The problem with out "growth" is that it comes on the back of cheap labour. Eventually, Chinese wages will rise, and there goes all that cheap stuff.

Growth requires our terms of trade to be good. I.e, we need to export more than we import. If we don’t get our economy going after the mining boom, we will become a banana republic agsin.

Nation states have come to specialise. China does manufacturing, the US does patents and intellectual property. The UK still does financial services.

Australia’s days as a mine are numbered.


The primary level education is too bad here. How much can a primary school teacher earn? I think not very good, then you can not attract good people to work in this area. Country's resources are all directed to lawyers and doctors kind of jobs. Those jobs don't provide too much real values. You can search for numbers, how many healthcare workers you have per 100,000 population? It's very high even in developed countries. But what's the outcome of their services? I remember the number of total healthcare services in NSW was pretty low. I asked a lawyer about the fees to win a business case. The answer was you never want to get into such a trouble. What? you can not expect any justice here, because you can not afford the legal cost? Then how can then society benefits from legal system? That's why angry people are everywhere, if no justice can be provided efficiently.



Do you want to try that again, but in English? And when you are sober?


Never back to school, never wake from drunken Grin
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bogarde73
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Re: Is economic growth good per se?
Reply #36 - Dec 3rd, 2015 at 9:55am
 
Where you say slavery Karnal, I say comparative advantage, which is a flexible relationship that will evolve in ways we haven't imagined yet.

And I agree with Macca's point: ask the people of Bangladesh, are they happy with the work that's come their way at this point or would they still prefer a more subsistence existence in the paddy fields, subject to the whims of typhoons and so forth.

Resources are finite in the sense that no more rocks are being manufactured, although even that's debatable. But what I mean is we don't know what elements or compounds still remain to be understood in terms of their full utility. And as I think beer mentioned, an infinite and as yet not understood resource is human cooperation. You could add to that imagination and the expansion of the mind.

There is no limit to growth until the sun does its thing and maybe even not then.
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Karnal
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Re: Is economic growth good per se?
Reply #37 - Dec 3rd, 2015 at 10:20am
 
mariacostel wrote on Dec 3rd, 2015 at 8:53am:
The 'anti-growth' rhetoric from so many of you mirrors your personal philosophy. How many of you have 'grown' in the last 20 years? Studied anything? Started a business, developed new skills? Or are you just the same person you were 20 years ago, just older?

If you understand and promote personal growth then the concept of economic growth makes perfect sence. But if you stopped growing and improving then you would expect the rest of the world to go in a holding-pattern with you.  But it won't. Ever.


Yes, dear, but you went to private school, so you don’t need any more study.

Longy could have done a PhD in maths, but the professors were all IDIOTS.
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Re: Is economic growth good per se?
Reply #38 - Dec 3rd, 2015 at 10:33am
 
Karnal wrote on Dec 3rd, 2015 at 10:20am:
mariacostel wrote on Dec 3rd, 2015 at 8:53am:
The 'anti-growth' rhetoric from so many of you mirrors your personal philosophy. How many of you have 'grown' in the last 20 years? Studied anything? Started a business, developed new skills? Or are you just the same person you were 20 years ago, just older?

If you understand and promote personal growth then the concept of economic growth makes perfect sence. But if you stopped growing and improving then you would expect the rest of the world to go in a holding-pattern with you.  But it won't. Ever.


Yes, dear, but you went to private school, so you don’t need any more study.

Longy could have done a PhD in maths, but the professors were all IDIOTS.


Don't say that, not all professors are IDIOTS, I think if they used to work in real business or advanced research environment, had good achievements, before retirement, go back to uni to pass their knowledge and experience to young people, they are good professors. Only those who always stay in uni since graduated, then waited for many years in a queue and become professors for a good income are idiots. (except people who really study hard in theoretical things)
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Karnal
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Re: Is economic growth good per se?
Reply #39 - Dec 3rd, 2015 at 10:45am
 
bogarde73 wrote on Dec 3rd, 2015 at 9:55am:
Where you say slavery Karnal, I say comparative advantage, which is a flexible relationship that will evolve in ways we haven't imagined yet.

And I agree with Macca's point: ask the people of Bangladesh, are they happy with the work that's come their way at this point or would they still prefer a more subsistence existence in the paddy fields, subject to the whims of typhoons and so forth.

Resources are finite in the sense that no more rocks are being manufactured, although even that's debatable. But what I mean is we don't know what elements or compounds still remain to be understood in terms of their full utility. And as I think beer mentioned, an infinite and as yet not understood resource is human cooperation. You could add to that imagination and the expansion of the mind.

There is no limit to growth until the sun does its thing and maybe even not then.


The limits to growth are not just resources, Bogie, they’re financial. Consumers and governments have a finite amount of money to spend.
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Re: Is economic growth good per se?
Reply #40 - Dec 3rd, 2015 at 11:56am
 
I believe it really depends on what kind of economy is growing, and that a country should gear towards growth in sectors that benefits it.

For example, ever increasing and expansion of money into real estate may not be good if its not geared towards producing new dwelling.   But keep increasing in price through easy credit on existing stock is just going to create bubbles that eventually have to burst.

Expansion in renewable energy sector is more preferable than non renewable, that is to prepare for the future. 

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Re: Is economic growth good per se?
Reply #41 - Dec 3rd, 2015 at 12:54pm
 
tickleandrose wrote on Dec 3rd, 2015 at 11:56am:
I believe it really depends on what kind of economy is growing, and that a country should gear towards growth in sectors that benefits it.

For example, ever increasing and expansion of money into real estate may not be good if its not geared towards producing new dwelling.   But keep increasing in price through easy credit on existing stock is just going to create bubbles that eventually have to burst.  



True. You could say that existing dwellings are not technically GDP. All you're doing is passing a product from one person to another.

You could also say that real estate is negative growth. I.e, when you become a home-owner, you go into debt.

This issue alone is the big problem with the Australian economy. Per capita, Australians owe debt of 150% of their annual salaries - among the highest debt levels in the world.

By comparison, government debt is among the lowest in the OECD. It sits at around 20% of GDP, as opposed to US debt, which is over 100%.

The way we think about these two kinds of debt - public and private - is striking. We have come to believe that government debt is inherently bad, while household debt is somehow virtuous. Buying a home or maxing out your credit card through a bit of retail therapy: good. Government investment in schools, infrastructure, home insulation, etc: evil.

The housing boom is what currently keeps the eastern states awash with stamp duty revenue. The NSW Treasury is currently loaded thanks to the Sydney property market.

But the debt that fuels this boom leaves Australia in a very precarious situation. It would not take much to collapse, but what's more likely is a slow economic decline, driven by rising terms of trade and low wage growth. As our money is tied up in debt, less money gets spent and invested. With low interest rates, investment makes little profit. Much of that debt is foreign, so it goes back out of the country - with interest.

In the current economic environment, encouraging spending, as governments generally love to do, encourages debt. This shifts the burden of debt from the government onto the individual.

Mind you, if it works, businesses employ and wages rise. Wages and capital are finite, but demand is illusive. Governments can make small changes that have a big impact on business and consumer confidence, and this is the current Turnbull strategy.

Governments can increase revenue in a number of ways, but there are broadly three: cut services, raise taxes, or encourage growth. These strategies need to be balanced and applied to economic circumstances.

Take the Abbott approach. Abbott talked the economy down both in opposition, and then in government. He manufactured an economic crisis that he then meant to solve. The solution? Cuts to government services.

Abbott wasn't successful in getting his cuts through, but he created economic gloom, shadowed by the end of the mining boom and the dearth of manufacturing. In his next budget, Abbott did a reversal. His aim? To stimulate the economy through generous family payments and small business rebates. Abbott wanted small business to "have a go".

The mixed messages here confused business. Business groups had no idea where Abbott was going. It was clear that the Abbott government was purely reactive and had no long-term plan. This was one of the main reasons why Abbott was deposed.

The day after Abbott's sacking, the dollar rose by two cents. Surveys showed business confidence improving after only a few weeks. By doing absolutely nothing, Turnbull achieved a minor boost in confidence. It's difficult to measure so close to Christmas, but employment has also risen.

Government money in Australia accounts for around 25% of the economy, so small shifts in direction can have a huge impact. The Abbott government, with Joe Hockey as treasurer, was a textbook example on what governments should not do.

Just think how ludicrous Abbott and Hockey's message was about home ownership and wages. Abbott said that high house prices are good. Hockey followed up by saying the best way to afford a home is to get a higher paying job. Abbott ruled out changes to negative gearing or capital gains tax, which artificially stimulate house prices. By talking up a wages auction, Hockey was pushing for wages growth, which causes inflation (and higher interest rates) - as if this could even be possible, given employment levels.

The messages made no sense, but they were the government's message on home ownership. As Hockey acknowledged, the Abbott government failed to get its message across on so many different levels. There was no coherence, but ultimately, there was no shared purpose to begin with. The Abbott government was doomed by its own words in opposition. It could not possibly provide a solution after talking up the problem to such a degree. The Abbott government was hung by its own rope.

The Turnbull government has a task on its hands, but "paying off Labor's debt" is the least of its problems. Reducing private debt is crucial to getting the economy going again.
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Re: Is economic growth good per se?
Reply #42 - Dec 3rd, 2015 at 2:10pm
 
Why not cut the service price that government paid for?  like you said 1/3 GDP belongs to the gov, it only benefits a small amount of businesses and individuals. It's the side effect of mining boom, too much easy money before.

The government spending is not fairly redistributed back to tax payers. Contractors and sub-contractors got too much money but provided very limited services.

This unfair reallocation of wealth divided poor and rich further and further. So rich people buy more and more houses in ridiculous high price, they know they have nowhere to invest other than just buying properties.

Normal people stuck in their debts, dare not to change jobs, find new opportunities, they became slaves of high housing debts, which is created by government unfair paid high income groups. So consumer & retail market was always bad, normal businesses could not earn money, they also need to pay more budget fixing tax to riches. Dead loop.

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Re: Is economic growth good per se?
Reply #43 - Dec 3rd, 2015 at 3:39pm
 
beer wrote on Dec 3rd, 2015 at 2:10pm:
The government spending is not fairly redistributed back to tax payers. Contractors and sub-contractors got too much money but provided very limited services.

This unfair reallocation of wealth divided poor and rich further and further. So rich people buy more and more houses in ridiculous high price, they know they have nowhere to invest other than just buying properties.



Socialist and communist views - money is not meant to be redistributed fairly back to taxpayers. If it does then every $1 that a poor person gets - a rich person should get as well

Rich people are rich for a variety of reasons - you don't have to agree with how they got their money but why should they share more of their wealth with you?

This then goes to the "the rich can afford it". Affordability is subjective. If someone believes you can afford to pay more tax - then do they have the right to take that money from you?

I am not a strong advocate of this view
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Karnal
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Re: Is economic growth good per se?
Reply #44 - Dec 3rd, 2015 at 4:04pm
 
Maqqa wrote on Dec 3rd, 2015 at 3:39pm:
Rich people are rich for a variety of reasons - you don't have to agree with how they got their money but why should they share more of their wealth with you?


The majority of the rich are rich due to market monopolies.

"Their" wealth? The richest companies are banks and super and hedge funds. Warren Buffett's wealth all comes from other people's money.

All capital comes from other people's money. People become rich due to government policies. They build their wealth through their ability to lobby and befriend governments. The world's richest are those granted monopolies by governments. Most of them are lent government money to do so.

Russian oligarchs, Chinese princelings, Saudi oil shieks - the wealthiest of these were lent money by their governments and granted monopolies. Many were given money by government-friendly banks - again, other people's money.

The same principle applies to airlines, casino developers, radio and TV stations, and on and on. If you think people become rich through hard work or smart ideas, good luck to you. The hardest and smartest workers throughout the world will never become rich through working and thinking. The rich, however, become wealthy through good fortune and key friendships. And they all do so using the money of other people.

This is precisely why they have a duty to share "their" money with us. That airline route, that mining lease, that casino or TV license or development approval - that belongs to all of us.

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