Australian Politics Forum - Is economic growth good per se?

miketrees Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 6490 Gender:	Re: Is economic growth good per se? Reply #75 - Dec 9^th, 2015 at 8:47pm How is it coupled? OK point taken , perhaps its not. Then I would say we just have to stop population growth and keep economic growth
Back to top	IP Logged

Karnal

Gold Member

Offline

Australian Politics

Posts: 96388

Re: Is economic growth good per se?
Reply #76 - Dec 9^th, 2015 at 9:06pm

freediver wrote on Dec 9^th, 2015 at 8:43pm:

Quote:

Your own reference said " The famine caused millions of deaths over an extended number of years and marked a clear end to the period of growth and prosperity from the eleventh to thirteenth centuries."

A plague comes and goes. People return to health. It is a sudden reduction. A famine takes years to unfold. When the drought ends, people are still starving. A deadly plague will kill off plenty, then the survivors return to full health. The crops are still alive, and there is more to go around. Instant boom.

I have no doubt that famines had a similar effect, once people returned to health, just not so pronounced. For example, when the famine ends, people are no longer starving. This is an improvement. On top of that, the reduction in population means they are less likely to be starving again in the near future. They have more of everything. Most people would consider this to be better off. Richer, even.

Quote:

FD, would you mind explaining the "Malthusian" argument that China’s population growth of 148% since 1950 has been a sudden cut to the population that produced an instant economic boom?
As ever, I’m curious.

They went from an unsustainable population to a sustainable one. See the IPAT link I provided earlier for Perce if you are getting hung up on the increase in absolute population. Obviously the economic liberalisation played a big part too.

I already checked your link, FD. It doesn’t mention anything on this subject - that’s why I’m.asking.

How did China’s population growth from half a billion people to one and a quarter billion people in 50 years make its population more sustainable? This fact appears to disproves your entire thesis. Is there something I’ve missed? What is it?

If you can explain this, we can assess your claim properly.

Back to top

IP Logged

freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 49371 At my desk.	Re: Is economic growth good per se? Reply #77 - Dec 10^th, 2015 at 6:04am What do you mean it "doesn't mention it"? This is what the entirety of the section on the IPAT equation is about. That is why I posted the link in anticipation of this question.
Back to top	People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words. IP Logged

Karnal

Gold Member

Offline

Australian Politics

Posts: 96388

Re: Is economic growth good per se?
Reply #78 - Dec 10^th, 2015 at 8:24am

freediver wrote on Dec 10^th, 2015 at 6:04am:

What do you mean it "doesn't mention it"? This is what the entirety of the section on the IPAT equation is about. That is why I posted the link in anticipation of this question.

FD, you know why a source that doesn’t describe China’s population growth as a population cut is not going to work. I’m inviting you to address your claims seriously. At present, no one here believes them. They appear to make no sense, particularly in light of the feedback you've received.

I’ve always been eager to discuss economic issues with you. This is a subject you’ve put a lot of thought into. I’m concerned, however, that you bound yourself to a few impressive universal theories back in uni and have since given up thinking about them.

So far, your "Malthusian" argument doesn’t stand up to question. As others have shown, population growth normally gives way to a rise in economic growth, not the reverse. The China example backs this up. Your own sources back this up.

Tricking readers to "win" an argument doesn't work. If you want to persuade, you'll need to provide facts. You're free to provide these, just as you're free to treat your readers like mugs by posting contradictory, unrelated sources.

It's up to you. Freeeedom, innit.

Back to top

« Last Edit: Dec 10^th, 2015 at 1:37pm by Karnal »

IP Logged

freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 49371 At my desk.	Re: Is economic growth good per se? Reply #79 - Dec 10^th, 2015 at 6:02pm You haven't even followed the link yet, have you Karnal? I think you'll find that no-one who has is still asking for an explanation. In fact, you are the only one asking for it. I posted the link in anticipation.
Back to top	People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words. IP Logged

Karnal Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 96388	Re: Is economic growth good per se? Reply #80 - Dec 10^th, 2015 at 6:19pm freediver wrote on Dec 10^th, 2015 at 6:02pm: You haven't even followed the link yet, have you Karnal? I think you'll find that no-one who has is still asking for an explanation. In fact, you are the only one asking for it. I posted the link in anticipation. No worries, FD. You can’t say we didn’t try.
Back to top	IP Logged

freediver

Gold Member

Offline

www.ozpolitic.com

Posts: 49371
At my desk.

Re: Is economic growth good per se?
Reply #81 - Dec 12^th, 2015 at 8:31am

I can say with certainty that you didn't bother checking out the link. As far as you are concerned, if you are not already aware of it, it does not exist and there is no point looking or trying to inform yourself. You even use your ignorance as an arguing point and project it on to other people. You are a textbook example of willfully ignorant.

Back to top

People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.

IP Logged

freediver

Gold Member

Offline

www.ozpolitic.com

Posts: 49371
At my desk.

Re: Is economic growth good per se?
Reply #82 - Dec 25^th, 2015 at 9:02am

freediver wrote on Dec 8^th, 2015 at 7:54am:

So it is synergy that drives economic growth, not competition?

Quote:

Business is no longer pretending that competition drives them. They now acknowledge that synergy and vertical and horizontal integration is key to success.

Either that, or the exact opposite, depending on the business model they choose.

Quote:

This is the way business has always been done, it's just not captured in classical economic theories

Right. Only Karnalism captures the reality of economics. It's synergy, innit?

Quote:

FD's comments on communism are an interesting throwback to the cold war. Then , it was believed that if you questioned free trade, you were advocating communism.

So what are you advocating Karnal? Synergy? Empty headed catchphrases from self improvement books? An accounting degree?

Karnal I have started another thread on this for you:

http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1450997927

Back to top

People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.

IP Logged

Karnal

Gold Member

Offline

Australian Politics

Posts: 96388

Re: Is economic growth good per se?
Reply #83 - Dec 26^th, 2015 at 4:02pm

freediver wrote on Dec 12^th, 2015 at 8:31am:

I can say with certainty that you didn't bother checking out the link. As far as you are concerned, if you are not already aware of it, it does not exist and there is no point looking or trying to inform yourself. You even use your ignorance as an arguing point and project it on to other people. You are a textbook example of willfully ignorant.

Not willfully ignorant, FD. If you won’t quote or refer me to your source, what to do?

Ignorance is strength, no?

Back to top

« Last Edit: Dec 26^th, 2015 at 4:10pm by Karnal »

IP Logged

freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 49371 At my desk.	Re: Is economic growth good per se? Reply #84 - Dec 27^th, 2015 at 8:58am Are you saying you need me to post the link again? Try going back in the thread to before you started pretending you had read it.
Back to top	People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words. IP Logged

Karnal Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 96388	Re: Is economic growth good per se? Reply #85 - Dec 27^th, 2015 at 10:41am How long would any reasonable person try to hide their sources, FD? Weeks? Months? Sorry. That’s a question.
Back to top	IP Logged

Ajax Gold Member Offline CO2 has never controlled temperature on Earth Posts: 10982 Australia Gender:	Re: Is economic growth good per se? Reply #86 - Dec 27^th, 2015 at 10:53am And there I was thinking per capita was the most meaningless statistic in Economics. this takes the cake.....!!!!
Back to top	1. There has never been a more serious assault on our standard of living than Anthropogenic Global Warming..Ajax 2. "One hour of freedom is worth more than 40 years of slavery & prison" Regas Feraeos IP Logged

freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 49371 At my desk.	Re: Is economic growth good per se? Reply #87 - Dec 27^th, 2015 at 3:47pm Wow, how did you find that hidden source Ajax? You followed the link I posted didn't you?
Back to top	People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words. IP Logged

Karnal

Gold Member

Offline

Australian Politics

Posts: 96388

Re: Is economic growth good per se?
Reply #88 - Dec 27^th, 2015 at 9:02pm

freediver wrote on Dec 27^th, 2015 at 3:47pm:

Wow, how did you find that hidden source Ajax? You followed the link I posted didn't you?

Ajax must have done some good detective work, FD, but I can’t read any of it.

Do you want to paste your source here for us all to see, or should we continue to forget it and move on?

I must say, after all this, it had better be good.

Back to top

IP Logged

freediver

Gold Member

Offline

www.ozpolitic.com

Posts: 49371
At my desk.

Re: Is economic growth good per se?
Reply #89 - Dec 27^th, 2015 at 9:05pm

freediver wrote on Dec 9^th, 2015 at 5:32pm:

They were on the brink of starvation, living the Malthusian dilemma. That's why a sudden cut to the population was an instant economic boom. They went from having no spare resources to having some. That's an infinite increase in disposable income.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Famine_of_1315%E2%80%9317

Famines were a familiar occurrence in Medieval Europe.

If you are confused about the lower absolute population, see this explanation:

http://www.ozpolitic.com/population-sustainability.html#IPAT

Back to top

People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.

IP Logged