Australian Politics Forum - Di NaMonkey predicts ALP/Greens coalition in 15yrs

Jovial Monk Gold Member Offline Dogs not cats! Posts: 47970 Gender:	Re: Di NaMonkey predicts ALP/Greens coalition in 15yrs Reply #30 - Dec 7^th, 2015 at 10:35am Looking at Greens_Split here why would anyone ever vote Green? More spin than Lisa’s hard worked washing machine. Attacks Labor not Lib, then says Greens aren’t rightwing???
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Kytro Gold Member Offline Blasphemy: a victimless crime Posts: 3409 Adelaide Gender:	Re: Di NaMonkey predicts ALP/Greens coalition in 15yrs Reply #31 - Dec 7^th, 2015 at 11:57am Yet more childish nonsense, can't anyone have a discussion without restoring to name-calling.
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Baronvonrort Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 18906 Gender:	Re: Di NaMonkey predicts ALP/Greens coalition in 15yrs Reply #32 - Dec 7^th, 2015 at 12:03pm After the last fiasco with Labor it will probably take another 15 years before Labor prostitute their heart and soul again in combination with the greens.
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mariacostel

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Re: Di NaMonkey predicts ALP/Greens coalition in 15yrs
Reply #33 - Dec 7^th, 2015 at 1:01pm

Bam wrote on Dec 7^th, 2015 at 9:32am:

mariacostel wrote on Dec 7^th, 2015 at 9:17am:

DiNatale is simply demonstrating how naive his party is. After the last Labor/Greens 'agreement', Labor stated that it was a disaster - which it was. The Greens have no conception of what a coalition is. They want the rewards of power but are completely unwilling to compromise and vote in unity. They want their own way ALL THE TIME as well as the benefits of a coalition. It will never happen until they learn to compromise.

The ETS fiasco and the entire Gillard government experience will tell labor MPs not to trust them.

It is extremely naive on your part to dismiss the possibility of an ALP-Greens coalition out of hand based on imperfect early efforts. If this same principle had applied from experiences in the 1920s, the Country party would never have formed a bound coalition with the Liberals or the conservative party of the day. It took 30 years or more for the Country Party and the conservative party of the day to iron out their differences and form a settled coalition. Permanent coalitions take time to be established because trust must be built up between the parties.

Labor are centre-right while Greens are left. Their agreement centres on being opposed to the Libs and pretty much nothing else. Labor are professional while Greens are activists and little more. They have nothing in common in terms of aspirational goals or methodologies. Gillard found that out quickly. They will take everything you offeren and give precisely nothing back.

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Jovial Monk

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Re: Di NaMonkey predicts ALP/Greens coalition in 15yrs
Reply #34 - Dec 7^th, 2015 at 1:37pm

mariacostel wrote on Dec 7^th, 2015 at 1:01pm:

Bam wrote on Dec 7^th, 2015 at 9:32am:

mariacostel wrote on Dec 7^th, 2015 at 9:17am:

DiNatale is simply demonstrating how naive his party is. After the last Labor/Greens 'agreement', Labor stated that it was a disaster - which it was. The Greens have no conception of what a coalition is. They want the rewards of power but are completely unwilling to compromise and vote in unity. They want their own way ALL THE TIME as well as the benefits of a coalition. It will never happen until they learn to compromise.

The ETS fiasco and the entire Gillard government experience will tell labor MPs not to trust them.

It is extremely naive on your part to dismiss the possibility of an ALP-Greens coalition out of hand based on imperfect early efforts. If this same principle had applied from experiences in the 1920s, the Country party would never have formed a bound coalition with the Liberals or the conservative party of the day. It took 30 years or more for the Country Party and the conservative party of the day to iron out their differences and form a settled coalition. Permanent coalitions take time to be established because trust must be built up between the parties.

Labor are centre-right while Greens are left. Their agreement centres on being opposed to the Libs and pretty much nothing else. Labor are professional while Greens are activists and little more. They have nothing in common in terms of aspirational goals or methodologies. Gillard found that out quickly. They will take everything you offeren and give precisely nothing back.

I would quibble about Greens being Left, especially now, but apart from that pretty much agree.

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Bam

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Re: Di Natale predicts ALP/Greens coalition in 15yrs
Reply #35 - Dec 7^th, 2015 at 2:16pm

____ wrote on Dec 7^th, 2015 at 10:24am:

Labor pretends to be a friend of the renewable sector. The coalition are up front on their opposition due to fossil donations to the party.

Labor are being dishonest to try and trick voters.

But the Coalition are good because they have worse environmental policies? What kind of nonsense is this? Why are you so soft on the Coalition when they are the biggest environmental wreckers in Australian politics?

____ wrote on Dec 7^th, 2015 at 10:24am:

Stating a target without policies to attain. And just days before the climate conference.
Labor has no real aim on renewable energy. More trickery.

As bad as the coalition, they are constant in policy. Labor isn't.

Labor are not in government now. They don't have to keep the same policies that they took to an election and lost. Oppositions are allowed to develop policies between elections. Your analysis isn't credible because it's so biased. You have hardly said a word against the Coalition even though they have backflipped on environmental policies just as much and have done far worse. They are the ones who pushed hard for the reduction in the RET ... yet you blame Labor for this. Why are you so filled with bile and hate towards Labor when the Coalition are far worse?

____ wrote on Dec 7^th, 2015 at 10:24am:

The Liberal now being conservative is a political advantage to the Greens in the longer period, in giving Greens more scope.
Labor trying to be all to everyone is just an attempt to be relevant in a changing world.
Longterm the diametrically opposed Greens ~ Conservative is the main game.
Labor sooner or later has to either split, die out, or choose a side.

You really need to understand how the political spectrum works. Perhaps it is the Greens who will die out when there's no longer room in the political spectrum for their policies?

____ wrote on Dec 7^th, 2015 at 10:24am:

The ideals labor will forward are reasonably obvious. Labor is reliant on coal electorates, coal exports, and will want to avoid a fossil fuel campaign against them. They are also trying to work nuclear into Australia's future. Labor will once again fence sit on an issue, rather than take a conservative or progressive side.

Again, all Labor bashing. Obviously lashing out at the party that is the biggest threat to the Greens' survival.

You need to learn a simple truth. Politics is not a contest of parties. It's a contest of ideas. If the ALP adopted every one of the Greens' policies, passed them into law in government and so made the Greens' irrelevant, does it really matter at all? No, it doesn't because the ideas are still implemented. Once you're talking about parties, you're losing sight of the ideas.

The archer who aims for the bullseye will win the prize. The archer who looks at the prize will miss the target.

So too should we remember that the target's bullseye is the set of ideas that are to be implemented. Being in government is just a prize, but setting the sights on the prize will cause the ideas to be missed. This is a problem with democracy in Australia. Too much partisan crap, not enough mature discussion on policy.

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Bam

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Re: Di Natale predicts ALP/Greens coalition in 15yrs
Reply #36 - Dec 7^th, 2015 at 2:18pm

____ wrote on Dec 7^th, 2015 at 10:24am:

I would rather see the demolition of the older parties and the rise of other parties out of their ashes, as well as new or smaller parties growing. And a shift to a more democratic model along the lines of a MMP or similar.

Coalition with either old party is just keeping the status quo and is against the Greens' revolutionary principles of renewal.

We can't change to a MMP system federally without some effort. The Federal Parliament elects members from the states and a MMP system would cause difficulty for Tasmania and the territories because they only elect a few members. For example, the NT elects two members. Electing both members from a single electorate pretty much guarantees that one will be Labor and one CLP. Rather than encourage democracy, such a system would cause stagnation in these states.

Moving away from a state-based Federal Parliament requires a constitutional amendment and that's not likely to succeed.

It doesn't mean that MMP can't work (electing the 37 Federal MPs from NSW in a single statewide electorate by an MMP system would produce very good proportional results) but the possibility of stagnation for "safe" MPs in high positions on list seats has to be addressed.

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Jovial Monk Gold Member Offline Dogs not cats! Posts: 47970 Gender:	Re: Di NaMonkey predicts ALP/Greens coalition in 15yrs Reply #37 - Dec 7^th, 2015 at 2:22pm Greens_split is beginning to sound desperate, especially now after the bielection.
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____ Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 33410 Australia Gender:	Re: Di Natale predicts ALP/Greens coalition in 15yrs Reply #38 - Dec 7^th, 2015 at 2:30pm With shorten_15%_and_dropping fronting dismal labor, I suggest you review your own position JM.
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____

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Re: Di Natale predicts ALP/Greens coalition in 15yrs
Reply #39 - Dec 7^th, 2015 at 2:55pm

Bam wrote on Dec 7^th, 2015 at 2:16pm: