Australian Politics Forum - Baden Clay wins appeal.

Alinta Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 1470 Melbourne Gender:	Re: Baden Clay wins appeal. Reply #1275 - Aug 31^st, 2016 at 1:15pm For those interested in the High Court reasoning......highly recommended reading http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/cases/cth/HCA/2016/35.html
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Re: Baden Clay wins appeal.
Reply #1276 - Aug 31^st, 2016 at 1:20pm

I have not read the High Court Judgement so this is a tad assumption based. The decision will affect how Defence conducts its cases like this in future. It also re-inforces what was always my advice to anyone being questioned by the Cops on any charge - keep your mouth shut, as is your right. Give 'em your name, address and drivers' licence, nothing more. Talking to the Cops will not prevent a charge. All it does is tip them off as to what your defence will later be if they think there is enough evidence to charge you. You will have kept your powder dry for when it really counts ~ in Court.

So ~ scenario. Completely made up but with some similarities.

Smith is in strife financially. He is having an affair and it is getting harder to handle. Mrs Smith (she is insured and he knows it) gets the schits big time, and an argument, verbal, breaks out. She gets hysterical, and then starts physically attacking him, including raking his face with her nails. He pushes her away with no intent other than to ..... push her away to pause her attack.

She stumbles. She falls, she hits the floor. Unconscious. She does not revive. She dies.

What does he do?

It does not matter what he does now.....it cannot change those facts. That is how she died and that was his intent......push her away to pause her attack.

He then does.....nothing other than call Cops and Ambos. Her says nothing to anyone other than to his Lawyer and he tells the Lawyer the truth, the facts. A Post Mortem is unable to determine a cause of death and cannot identify his tissue under her nails.

What evidence will the Crown have on which to base a charge?

1. He was in trouble financially.
2. He was having an affair, messy.
3. She was insured.
4. She is dead.
5. He called Police and Ambos.
6. Cause of death unknown.
7. He has some marks on his face.

That's it.

No jury could could convict him of anything on that evidence. Way to much room for doubt.

Okay, lets add/change some facts.

He panics, or goes into zombie mode. He does not call the Cops/Ambos. He puts her in the car and dumps her body on a creek bank.

He calls the Cops and says she is missing and he knows nothing at all about it. He sticks with that story all the way (including to his Lawyers) even to his Trial where he gives that evidence.

We all know that he did no have any intention other than to push her away to pause her attack.

How on Earth can he safely be convicted of murder, i.e. intentionally causing her death, intentionally killing her.

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red baron Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 10204 Blue Mountains Gender:	Re: Baden Clay wins appeal. Reply #1277 - Aug 31^st, 2016 at 1:29pm S...I...M...P...L....I...S...T...I...C Aussie The High Court have called Gerard Baden-Clay for what he is, which has been patently obvious to everyone except those jerks on the Qld Court of Appeal. He is a stone cold killer
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Aussie

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Re: Baden Clay wins appeal.
Reply #1278 - Aug 31^st, 2016 at 1:33pm

Alinta wrote on Aug 31^st, 2016 at 1:15pm:

For those interested in the High Court reasoning......highly recommended reading

http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/cases/cth/HCA/2016/35.html

Thanks Alinta. Have briefly now scanned that, Every Criminal Lawyer has lessons to learn in that decision, and the most obvious one is....

keep your client's mouth as shut as possible unless there is no other alternative.

Notice how the High Court has used what came out of Baden Clay's mouth as evidence against him.

That cannot happen if nothing comes out of the mouth.

Last quick comment ~ Defence Counsel in the original Trial stuffed up needlessly. He allowed himself to be drawn where he should never have gone and in doing so, narrowed the options available to him.

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red baron

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Re: Baden Clay wins appeal.
Reply #1279 - Aug 31^st, 2016 at 1:35pm

Source ABC NEWS:

"The High Court held that the hypothesis on which the Court of Appeal acted was not available on the evidence.

"In particular, the Court [of Appeal] accepted the respondent's submission, made for the first time on appeal, that the prosecution had not excluded the hypothesis that there was a physical confrontation between the appellant and his wife in which he delivered a blow which killed her [for example, by the effects of a fall hitting her head against a hard surface] without intending to cause grievous bodily harm."

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Aussie

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Re: Baden Clay wins appeal.
Reply #1280 - Aug 31^st, 2016 at 1:36pm

red baron wrote on Aug 31^st, 2016 at 1:29pm:

S...I...M...P...L....I...S...T...I...C Aussie

The High Court have called Gerard Baden-Clay fort what he is, which has been patently obvious to everyone except those jerks on the Qld Court of Appeal.

He is a stone cold killer

Lift your game and look at what the broad legal position is now. This decision sets the course for defence in future....which is

always, always shut the ferk up

, until and unless you have no other choice. As much as is possible and within reasonable risk management, always rely on the presumption of innocence and require the Crown to prove every element of the offence beyond reasonable doubt, and never be badgered by a Trial Judge into limiting those options.

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red baron

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Re: Baden Clay wins appeal.
Reply #1281 - Aug 31^st, 2016 at 1:48pm

You can say that all you like and I would agree with you Aussie. In the main people hang themselves with their own words.

What I have learned in my years as a Cop is people love to hear the sound of their own voices.

They also think Cops are dumb and they can 'play them'.

Unfortunately for them they have their ambitions and their abilities confused a tad.

In the Baden-Clay case Gerard really didn't give much away. However the forensic evidence and in particular the stuff that was found on Alison's body and how the experts nailed down that 'stuff'; to her very own garden is fascinating, even to the point that some of that flora could only be found in rare places.

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Aussie

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Re: Baden Clay wins appeal.
Reply #1282 - Aug 31^st, 2016 at 2:12pm

Aussie wrote on Aug 31^st, 2016 at 1:36pm:

red baron wrote on Aug 31^st, 2016 at 1:29pm:

S...I...M...P...L....I...S...T...I...C Aussie

The High Court have called Gerard Baden-Clay fort what he is, which has been patently obvious to everyone except those jerks on the Qld Court of Appeal.

He is a stone cold killer

Lift your game and look at what the broad legal position is now. This decision sets the course for defence in future....which is

always, always shut the ferk up

, until and unless you have no other choice. As much as is possible and within reasonable risk management, always rely on the presumption of innocence and require the Crown to prove every element of the offence beyond reasonable doubt, and never be badgered by a Trial Judge into limiting those options.

And here are a couple of Junior Burger Lawyers coming to the same conclusion.

Link.

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cods

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Re: Baden Clay wins appeal.
Reply #1283 - Aug 31^st, 2016 at 2:33pm

Aussie wrote on Aug 31^st, 2016 at 1:20pm:

I have not read the High Court Judgement so this is a tad assumption based. The decision will affect how Defence conducts its cases like this in future. It also re-inforces what was always my advice to anyone being questioned by the Cops on any charge - keep your mouth shut, as is your right. Give 'em your name, address and drivers' licence, nothing more. Talking to the Cops will not prevent a charge. All it does is tip them off as to what your defence will later be if they think there is enough evidence to charge you. You will have kept your powder dry for when it really counts ~ in Court.

So ~ scenario. Completely made up but with some similarities.

Smith is in strife financially. He is having an affair and it is getting harder to handle. Mrs Smith (she is insured and he knows it) gets the schits big time, and an argument, verbal, breaks out. She gets hysterical, and then starts physically attacking him, including raking his face with her nails. He pushes her away with no intent other than to ..... push her away to pause her attack.

She stumbles. She falls, she hits the floor. Unconscious. She does not revive. She dies.

What does he do?

It does not matter what he does now.....it cannot change those facts. That is how she died and that was his intent......push her away to pause her attack.

He then does.....nothing other than call Cops and Ambos. Her says nothing to anyone other than to his Lawyer and he tells the Lawyer the truth, the facts. A Post Mortem is unable to determine a cause of death and cannot identify his tissue under her nails.

What evidence will the Crown have on which to base a charge?

1. He was in trouble financially.
2. He was having an affair, messy.
3. She was insured.
4. She is dead.
5. He called Police and Ambos.
6. Cause of death unknown.
7. He has some marks on his face.

That's it.

No jury could could convict him of anything on that evidence. Way to much room for doubt.

Okay, lets add/change some facts.

He panics, or goes into zombie mode. He does not call the Cops/Ambos. He puts her in the car and dumps her body on a creek bank.

He calls the Cops and says she is missing and he knows nothing at all about it. He sticks with that story all the way (including to his Lawyers) even to his Trial where he gives that evidence.

We all know that he did no have any intention other than to push her away to pause her attack.

How on Earth can he safely be convicted of murder, i.e. intentionally causing her death, intentionally killing her.

HOW DO WE "ALL" KNOW THAT?..

the trouble is aussie.. as you have maintained all along.. SHE IS DEAD... of course in your mind it doesnt matter whether hes guilty of murder or manslaughter...

she bloody dead... get over it.!!

but you see it isnt your mind anyone cares about... its the victims families mind that matters.....

like it or not there will be a huge stigma on this guy always being tagged a murderer......if someone bashes someone outside a pub and he/she dies from that bashing.. it is called manslaughter....

if someone kills someone by accident then tries to cover it up and pretend he/she had not a thing to do with it... then thats murder....

why cover up an accident.. why let police and family search for 3 weeks when you know all along where the body is??..

thats calculating....that takes some kind of person to do that......

that isnt any accident..

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Aussie

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Re: Baden Clay wins appeal.
Reply #1284 - Aug 31^st, 2016 at 2:44pm

Quote:

HOW DO WE "ALL" KNOW THAT?..

Because it was a made up scenario of agreed facts....we were all flies on the wall and saw it occur.

Quote:

the trouble is aussie.. as you have maintained all along.. SHE IS DEAD... of course in your mind it doesnt matter whether hes guilty of murder or manslaughter...

Where have I ever said that, cods?

Quote:

she bloody dead... get over it.!!

That she is, and nothing can change that.

Quote:

but you see it isnt your mind anyone cares about... its the victims families mind that matters.....

Okay, so start calling for Justice for the Families, instead of Justice for *here insert name of deceased person.*

Quote:

like it or not there will be a huge stigma on this guy always being tagged a murderer......if someone bashes someone outside a pub and he/she dies from that bashing.. it is called manslaughter....

Correct.

Quote:

if someone kills someone by accident then tries to cover it up and pretend he/she had not a thing to do with it... then thats murder....

Quote:

why cover up an accident.. why let police and family search for 3 weeks when you know all along where the body is??..

thats calculating....that takes some kind of person to do that......

Someone in panic, in zomblie mode, in survival mode, in 'WTF just happened to me' mode.

Quote:

that isnt any accident..

The cover up is no accident, but, in my pretend scenario (which we saw as flies on the wall) we know all he did was push her away to pause her attack....no intent other than that.

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PZ547

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Re: Baden Clay wins appeal.
Reply #1285 - Aug 31^st, 2016 at 2:48pm

'I will be free on 31 July'

' I will come to you a free man '

' Your mother fell down a hole and won't be coming back '

Dumps murdered wife in the mud to be gnawed at by crabs

Leaves her there for weeks

Sits back, does nothing during all that time

Fakes car accident: ' I'm a little bit hurt '

Lets siblings, parents, in laws, etc. face the media

Dodgy carryings-on with the two-car scenario

Has hiked wife's insurance

Lets parents mortgage their home in their dotage to pay legal fees

Soon as body is discovered (but not identified) he's on the blower to the insurance mob to claim

Sells or tries to sell dead wife's share of Gold Coast property

Lies his smug face off in court. Costs the country a fortune. Denies any part in wife's death. Later tries to scrape out of prison by saying, 'Ok. Yes I killed her. Didn't mean it '

No respect for anyone

All about himself

Ruthless, narcissistic, self-serving, threw everyone into the flames

'Keep his mouth shut'. LOL. He couldn't keep his big mouth shut. Loves the sound of his own voice, any sort of attention will do

How could he have avoided all this PAIN to everyone else?

He could have phoned the police and ambulance the minute his wife hit the deck

He could have explained how she came to be in that condition

Police would have investigated his affairs

He would have had to take his chances in court

Jury might have accepted his 'fit of rage, pushed her away, I didn't mean it' plea

Or, they might not

If he had even a quarter of a testicle, his first concern would be for

(a) his wife, the one he betrayed, humiliated and killed intentionally or not

(b) his children, his wife's young daugters

(c) his wife's parents, siblings

(d) his own parents, siblings

(e) everyone with whom he and his wife had been associated

Instead, he lied and postured and allowed total strangers to trudge through flood, mud, bush, leeches, spiders. They went down holes, under houses and left their own families and jobs to take care of themselves

Worst of all, he left his wife to literally rot and be consumed by vermin and maggots while he showered and shaved and ponced around

Unforgivable. He should be on a chain gang 16 hours a day right now making token repayment to Australians and Australia. And any cent he earns once he's released into society should be ripped from his hands at the same time he has to wipe gallons of spittle from his vile face

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All my comments, posts & opinions are to be regarded as satire & humour

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cods

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Re: Baden Clay wins appeal.
Reply #1286 - Aug 31^st, 2016 at 2:49pm

Aussie wrote on Aug 31^st, 2016 at 1:36pm:

red baron wrote on Aug 31^st, 2016 at 1:29pm:

S...I...M...P...L....I...S...T...I...C Aussie

The High Court have called Gerard Baden-Clay fort what he is, which has been patently obvious to everyone except those jerks on the Qld Court of Appeal.

He is a stone cold killer

Lift your game and look at what the broad legal position is now. This decision sets the course for defence in future....which is

always, always shut the ferk up

, until and unless you have no other choice. As much as is possible and within reasonable risk management, always rely on the presumption of innocence and require the Crown to prove every element of the offence beyond reasonable doubt, and never be badgered by a Trial Judge into limiting those options.

his whole defence was I was asleep... he didnt even bother to come up with a scenario that someone else could have done it...

you are wrong,... if manslaughter had prevailed that would have changed the course of murder trials...

and if you dont believe every murderer would have used..

it wasnt what I was intending at the moment of death. excuse... are you in fantasy land..

he did it....he got rid of the body he was probably hoping animals would have carried it off....

who goes to all that trouble if they they claim it was an accident.. assuming your silly scenario is a real one.. to be unconscious she would have hit her head... thats an easy one to prove.....

I would think you would have to be pretty cold and clear headed to do what he did with Allison....because he knew he murdered her it was no accident..

as for shutting Gerard up.. his team did try to do just that.. but his ego./arrogance wouldnt allow it....

when did the judge do any badgering?????????.....

of course his losing lawyers would crap on like that.. they have no conscience non at all.. they did their best to blacken Allisons name and to suggest she committed suicide was the pits....I ahve no time for legals that claim things about a dead person to get a guilty person off.......lets hope they go out of business. Angry

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Aussie Gold Member Offline OzPolitic Posts: 38868 Gender:	Re: Baden Clay wins appeal. Reply #1287 - Aug 31^st, 2016 at 2:54pm You need to read Alinta's link for the answers for they are there.
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cods

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Re: Baden Clay wins appeal.
Reply #1288 - Aug 31^st, 2016 at 2:54pm

Aussie wrote on Aug 31^st, 2016 at 2:44pm:

The cover up is no accident, but, in my pretend scenario (which we saw as flies on the wall) we know all he did was push her away to pause her attack....no intent other than that.

because you wrote the story.......

funn y but you didnt write the real story and there were no flies on the wall..

all we had was one persons version and according to him he WASNT THERE HE WAS ASLEEP>>>

there was NO ACCIDENT>...you story would have a grain of truth if that is what he claimed from day one.....even after her body... one could say..

well yes I suppose... that could have happened that way..

you are blowing in the wind mate..

he lawyers if they were any good would have gone for a re trial...

this way they are gone and they know it..

their whingeing will be all about saving their face.. they know Gerard killed her...

intent or not he KILLED HER>

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cods Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 88048	Re: Baden Clay wins appeal. Reply #1289 - Aug 31^st, 2016 at 2:55pm Aussie wrote on Aug 31^st, 2016 at 2:54pm: You need to read Alinta's link for the answers for they are there. no thank I read it on the news... you and alinta suck up to each other...and you act so superior .. its laughable.
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