Australian Politics Forum - Baden Clay wins appeal.

cods

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Re: Baden Clay wins appeal.
Reply #285 - Dec 30^th, 2015 at 8:58am

Aussie wrote on Dec 29^th, 2015 at 8:20pm:

Quote:

no one claims this guy meant to kill her ..

What do they claim, then? What do you claim given you finally admit there was no evidence he meant to kill her?

You said you would read every word of the decision of the Court of Appeal. Have you? If you have, why is it you have not been able to rip apart my various alternate explanations for what happened ~ so far as we know?

did the guy who was found guilty of throwing his girl fried over a balcony...simon Gittany.. wake up that morning and say today I am going to KILL LISA...

does every man who is charged with MURDER[ possibly one a week]..

have to make up his mind he is going to KILL that person??...for it to be MURDER... REALLY???>..

so basically all a murderer has to do to get his charges down graded is to say...It was an accident...I strangled her by accident I dont know how my hands went round her neck I think she put them there.. Roll Eyes

easy peasy..

numpty I wouldnt even begin to read half you dense posts let alone answer them... lets say what ever you say I think opposite...

what you think and dumpty... I am not interested in....as you can see you think to prove beyond a reasonable doubt means.. we have to take the murderers word for everything...

the fact he tried to cover it all up.. doesnt mean a thing.. the fact he went 11 days claiming she went for a walk and didnt come back....doesnt mean a thing...

the fact his back was against the wall.. he had a mistress telling him to get a divorce and marry her like he promised..the fact he was thousands in debt and his business was going under....the fact he was used to getting his own way 99% of his life... he still said mummy and daddy....... Roll Eyes

lived a complete lie for most of his marriage......

yet now he is to be admired because he never changed his story......wow..guess what neither has Ivan Milat..

you dont mind do you!If I do not see life like that...

and cunning people are just like that.

very cunning... Angry

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perceptions_now Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 11694 Perth WA Gender:	Re: Baden Clay wins appeal. Reply #286 - Dec 30^th, 2015 at 12:16pm .
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perceptions_now Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 11694 Perth WA Gender:	Re: Baden Clay wins appeal. Reply #287 - Dec 30^th, 2015 at 12:16pm ..
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perceptions_now Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 11694 Perth WA Gender:	Re: Baden Clay wins appeal. Reply #288 - Dec 30^th, 2015 at 12:16pm Seems like this thread is Clogged?!
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perceptions_now Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 11694 Perth WA Gender:	Re: Baden Clay wins appeal. Reply #289 - Dec 30^th, 2015 at 12:17pm ...
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red baron

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Re: Baden Clay wins appeal.
Reply #290 - Dec 30^th, 2015 at 1:46pm

Yes cods there is truth in the simple yet riveting argument you have put forward as to Baden Clay's guilt.

There is nothing really hard to work out how this has played out.

How about this for a scenario.

Baden Clay has been having an affair with his secretary. This has been an on/off/on situation for some time. Baden Clay is also getting 'it on' when he goes to conferences with whomever else.

Baden Clay's real estate business in in bad shape. He has tried to go to whomever will listen to borrow $400,000, he has been unsuccessful in this endeavour.

Baden Clay is aware that his wife Alice has a One million dollar insurance policy on her life.

Baden Clay and his wife have been arguing for some time Alice is aware of his philandering.

Baden Clay decides that he can get rid of his money worries and have his mistress unfettered, all that he needs to do is murder his wife Alice.

Baden Clay has a violent struggle with his wife Alice during which she manages to scrape his face with her fingernails.

During this struggle which is outside the house Alice is forced amongst the shrubs, plants in their garden. She has suffered an injury which has caused her to bleed. However Baden Clay has murdered her.

His wraps up his wife's body, puts it in her car and transports it to the bridge site, where she is eventually found at the creek bed below. Baden Clay leaves her body near the bridge, in an attempt to convince her finders that due to her ongoing depression she committed suicide.

Baden Clay cleans up big time at the scene of the murder at home, the subject vehicle and then lies doggo for some time before belatedly reporting her disappearance to the Police.

Alice Baden Clay's body is finally found. The homicide squad become quickly involved.

Baden Clay is subsequently arrested and charged with his wife's murder.

The errors Baden Clay made with his story to Police.

a) He claimed the marks on his face were from shaving hurriedly with a blunt razor. However expert testimony has put grave doubt that the marks were all from a razor. Expert witnesses have testified that the marks could well have been made by fingernail scratches on his face that have been tampered with a razor to disguise their origin.

b) Baden Clay didn't figure on the fact that the vegetation found in the hair and on Alice's body matched the vegetation around their home but not in any way the vegetation where her body was found.

c) Blood was found in a rivulet under the seat in the subject vehicle. Baden Clay, whilst thorough, wasn't thorough enough in his cleanup attempt. The blood belonged to Alice Baden Clay.

d) There is strong evidence to suggest that due to Baden Clay being in dire financial straits that the inducement of the million dollar insurance policy if realised would result in happy days for the accused.

e) The demise of his wife would free Baden Clay to bring his defacto relationship out into the open.

These factors alone tick all the boxes for me as a retired Cop. If I were serving on a Jury I would, like a Jury has already done; send him down for Murder.

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« Last Edit: Dec 30^th, 2015 at 2:01pm by red baron »

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cods

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Re: Baden Clay wins appeal.
Reply #291 - Dec 30^th, 2015 at 3:16pm

red baron wrote on Dec 30^th, 2015 at 1:46pm:

Yes cods there is truth in the simple yet riveting argument you have put forward as to Baden Clay's guilt.

There is nothing really hard to work out how this has played out.

How about this for a scenario.

Baden Clay has been having an affair with his secretary. This has been an on/off/on situation for some time. Baden Clay is also getting 'it on' when he goes to conferences with whomever else.

you forgot the bit where his wife was about to EXPOSE him to everyone at the conference where she will point out his mistresses......on by one....

in a massive shock to everyone...

she had to be stopped...

why didnt he use the good old QLD.. I WAS PROVOKED escape... Roll Eyes

WHY WHY WHY Gerard?.... didnt you claim she provoked you.....you would have come out a HERO.. to numpty at ant rate..

I see the appeal IS going ahead...so we shall see what is in it.. I find it hard the DPP hasnt listened to numpty.. Cheesy

....then again maybe he has.. Grin

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The Heartless Felon Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 2869 Gender:	Re: Baden Clay wins appeal. Reply #292 - Dec 30^th, 2015 at 3:37pm Who's Alice?
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Aussie

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Re: Baden Clay wins appeal.
Reply #293 - Dec 30^th, 2015 at 3:41pm

red baron wrote on Dec 30^th, 2015 at 1:46pm:

Yes cods there is truth in the simple yet riveting argument you have put forward as to Baden Clay's guilt.

There is nothing really hard to work out how this has played out.

How about this for a scenario.

Baden Clay has been having an affair with his secretary. This has been an on/off/on situation for some time. Baden Clay is also getting 'it on' when he goes to conferences with whomever else.

Baden Clay's real estate business in in bad shape. He has tried to go to whomever will listen to borrow $400,000, he has been unsuccessful in this endeavour.

Baden Clay is aware that his wife Alice has a One million dollar insurance policy on her life.

Baden Clay and his wife have been arguing for some time Alice is aware of his philandering.

Baden Clay decides that he can get rid of his money worries and have his mistress unfettered, all that he needs to do is murder his wife Alice.

Baden Clay has a violent struggle with his wife Alice during which she manages to scrape his face with her fingernails.

During this struggle which is outside the house Alice is forced amongst the shrubs, plants in their garden. She has suffered an injury which has caused her to bleed. However Baden Clay has murdered her.

His wraps up his wife's body, puts it in her car and transports it to the bridge site, where she is eventually found at the creek bed below. Baden Clay leaves her body near the bridge, in an attempt to convince her finders that due to her ongoing depression she committed suicide.

Baden Clay cleans up big time at the scene of the murder at home, the subject vehicle and then lies doggo for some time before belatedly reporting her disappearance to the Police.

Alice Baden Clay's body is finally found. The homicide squad become quickly involved.

Baden Clay is subsequently arrested and charged with his wife's murder.

The errors Baden Clay made with his story to Police.

a) He claimed the marks on his face were from shaving hurriedly with a blunt razor. However expert testimony has put grave doubt that the marks were all from a razor. Expert witnesses have testified that the marks could well have been made by fingernail scratches on his face that have been tampered with a razor to disguise their origin.

b) Baden Clay didn't figure on the fact that the vegetation found in the hair and on Alice's body matched the vegetation around their home but not in any way the vegetation where her body was found.

c) Blood was found in a rivulet under the seat in the subject vehicle. Baden Clay, whilst thorough, wasn't thorough enough in his cleanup attempt. The blood belonged to Alice Baden Clay.

d) There is strong evidence to suggest that due to Baden Clay being in dire financial straits that the inducement of the million dollar insurance policy if realised would result in happy days for the accused.

e) The demise of his wife would free Baden Clay to bring his defacto relationship out into the open.

These factors alone tick all the boxes for me as a retired Cop. If I were serving on a Jury I would, like a Jury has already done; send him down for Murder.

All of that is one of so many options, and that is the problem you are not recognizing. There is no evidence he intended to kill, especially in the circumstance that we do not know her cause of death.

You could take all of your scenario, including some sort of physical domestic confrontation in the yard of their home for all the reasons you mention (I'm not sure you have your facts right about the mistress/timing/Conference etc.......but we'll take it as you describe.) During that struggle, she claws his face. The struggle ends. He goes inside. To stay away from him, or perhaps cool\calm down, she wanders off, and ends up where she was found.

There are way too many possible scenarios consistent with no intent to kill....and while they exist.....the evidence is insufficient in that important element....intent to kill.

I'll jump off the fence and express an opinion on what I reckon the High Court will do when I see the grounds of appeal.

A possible outcome is that the High Court does not even grant threshold permission ('leave') to appeal. I really do not see any new legal issue in contest, or, to be frank, any great matter of significant public interest (as that term is used in High Court appeal contexts.)

But, I'll wait to see the grounds before getting off the fence.

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Aussie Gold Member Offline OzPolitic Posts: 38869 Gender:	Re: Baden Clay wins appeal. Reply #294 - Dec 30^th, 2015 at 3:42pm The Heartless Felon wrote on Dec 30^th, 2015 at 3:37pm: Who's Alice? He means 'Allison.' The deceased.
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Neferti Gold Member Offline Posts: 7965 Canberra Gender:	Re: Baden Clay wins appeal. Reply #295 - Dec 30^th, 2015 at 3:43pm The Heartless Felon wrote on Dec 30^th, 2015 at 3:37pm: Who's Alice? Allison ... clever of you to pick that up, mate.
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red baron

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Re: Baden Clay wins appeal.
Reply #296 - Dec 30^th, 2015 at 3:54pm

Yes...I meant Allison...sorry to that in Allison's memory.

I hear you Aussie but when looking at all the circumstances involving this case and what I personally consider was the overwhelming factor in his decision to murder her, the one million dollar get out of financial ruin clause.

I am on the side of the original Jury. In any case there will always be legal argument on the finer points of the law.

But we live and die by the Jury system and I am personally convinced the Jury got it dead right in this matter.

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Neferti

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Re: Baden Clay wins appeal.
Reply #297 - Dec 30^th, 2015 at 4:02pm

Aussie wrote on Dec 30^th, 2015 at 3:41pm:

All of that is one of so many options, and that is the problem you are not recognizing. There is no evidence he intended to kill, especially in the circumstance that we do not know her cause of death.

You could take all of your scenario, including some sort of physical domestic confrontation in the yard of their home for all the reasons you mention (I'm not sure you have your facts right about the mistress/timing/Conference etc.......but we'll take it as you describe.) During that struggle, she claws his face. The struggle ends. He goes inside. To stay away from him, or perhaps cool\calm down, she wanders off, and ends up where she was found.

Purely a hypothetical by you. Remember EVIDENCE?

Quote:

There are way too many possible scenarios consistent with no intent to kill....and while they exist.....the evidence is insufficient in that important element....intent to kill.

The body, when finally discovered, was so decomposed that Forensics could NOT determine how Allison was MURDERED. She did NOT "commit suicide" by jumping off the bridge, that was obvious.

Quote:

I'll jump off the fence and express an opinion on what I reckon the High Court will do when I see the grounds of appeal.

How BIG of you. Even you don't KNOW what the High Court will do. Smartarse.

Quote:

A possible outcome is that the High Court does not even grant threshold permission ('leave') to appeal. I really do not see any new legal issue in contest, or, to be frank, any great matter of significant public interest (as that term is used in High Court appeal contexts.)

We have already been through this caper before. You know as much about this Case as anybody does.

What MOST people want is that, even IF it is reduced to Manslaughter, Gerard Baden Clay still gets LIFE or whatever for MURDERING HIS WIFE, regardless of whether it was intentional or not. He is GUILTY.

Quote:

But, I'll wait to see the grounds before getting off the fence.

Sure you will, arsie. Bully for you!

Oh, and do NOT forget that the Defence Counsel could NOT convince the Jury of "Reasonable Doubt". GBC is a MURDERER. Luckily Allison's $1 million Life Insurance Policy will NOT be accessed by him.

I also believe that GBC's elderly parents sold their house to fund his Appeal. They seem to think that they are some sort of "celebs" since somewhere they were related to Lord Baden Powell ... the Scout person.

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« Last Edit: Dec 30^th, 2015 at 4:12pm by Neferti »

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Kytro

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Re: Baden Clay wins appeal.
Reply #298 - Dec 30^th, 2015 at 4:03pm

red baron wrote on Dec 30^th, 2015 at 3:54pm:

Yes...I meant Allison...sorry to that in Allison's memory.

I hear you Aussie but when looking at all the circumstances involving this case and what I personally consider was the overwhelming factor in his decision to murder her, the one million dollar get out of financial ruin clause.

I am on the side of the original Jury. In any case there will always be legal argument on the finer points of the law.

But we live and die by the Jury system and I am personally convinced the Jury got it dead right in this matter.

The entire reason the appeal was successful was because the panel of judges believed there was an alternative plausible explanation, and in that circumstance there shouldn't have been a murder trail in the first place.

It does not matter if murder was "more likely" or not. It matters only that it wasn't the only viable explanation.

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Neferti

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Re: Baden Clay wins appeal.
Reply #299 - Dec 30^th, 2015 at 4:24pm

Kytro wrote on Dec 30^th, 2015 at 4:03pm:

I hear you Aussie but when looking at all the circumstances involving this case and what I personally consider was the overwhelming factor in his decision to murder her, the one million dollar get out of financial ruin clause.

I am on the side of the original Jury. In any case there will always be legal argument on the finer points of the law.

But we live and die by the Jury system and I am personally convinced the Jury got it dead right in this matter.

The entire reason the appeal was successful was because the panel of judges believed there was an alternative plausible explanation, and in that circumstance there shouldn't have been a murder trail in the first place.

It does not matter if murder was "more likely" or not. It matters only that it wasn't the only viable explanation.

Murder -v- Manslaughter?

Murder seems to mean that you INTENDED to kill. Manslaughter seems to me that it was an "accident" ... although when trying to rape and strangle you COULD say to yourself " geeze, what the f**k am I doing?" and stop doing it .... but you don't. That's manslaughter?

I am not certain but I presume that, in Australia, Murder and Manslaughter can attract the same "incarceration", i.e. 25 years without Parole.

So, the people protesting GBC's "downgrade" from Murder to Manslaughter are only upset because they think he will get out of Gaol early? I thought he sentence would NOT change. IF it does, I , too will be pissed off.

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