Australian Politics Forum - Baden Clay wins appeal.

cods

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Re: Baden Clay wins appeal.
Reply #300 - Dec 30^th, 2015 at 9:27pm

I'll jump off the fence and express an opinion on what I reckon the High Court will do when I see the grounds of appeal.

A possible outcome is that the High Court does not even grant threshold permission ('leave') to appeal. I really do not see any new legal issue in contest, or, to be frank, any great matter of significant public interest (as that term is used in High Court appeal contexts.)

But, I'll wait to see the grounds before getting off the fence.
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cods

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Re: Baden Clay wins appeal.
Reply #301 - Dec 30^th, 2015 at 9:40pm

red baron wrote on Dec 30^th, 2015 at 3:54pm:

Yes...I meant Allison...sorry to that in Allison's memory.

I hear you Aussie but when looking at all the circumstances involving this case and what I personally consider was the overwhelming factor in his decision to murder her, the one million dollar get out of financial ruin clause.

I am on the side of the original Jury. In any case there will always be legal argument on the finer points of the law.

But we live and die by the Jury system and I am personally convinced the Jury got it dead right in this matter.

lets be honest here...

how many husbands have ANNOUNCED their wife is missing.. OR no shes run off with the milkman.... he went to work came home 8 hours later and the she was gone... her clothes werent nor her phone or creditcard.. but she had run off.... in a hurry of course

now I am not saying the cops suss him straight away... BUT!!!..

he is allowed to cry on TV and beg her to come home...he misses her.. please come home..

yes we know Gerard didnt do that he was far too proud...

but he did say she went out and didnt come back.... Roll Eyes

.... a bit of an A ' HA moment I am thinking??..

leaving behind everything including her beloved daughters....with not so much as a goodbye....

lousy mother..... he did tell a few fibbies about going to bed and getting up late....oh well small details...

did anyone check to see if the girls were drugged so they would sleep through any noise in the night???>..

maybe not...

what sort of man kills his wife then hides her from everyone and pretends he has no idea what or where she is... knowing all the time all the while where the mother of his girls was laying....

he also cleaned up..then came up with all the lies. as to where he was that night..... asleep... really!

what sort of man does that?.... Sad

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Grappler Deep State Feller Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 85523 Always was always will be HOME Gender:	Re: Baden Clay wins appeal. Reply #302 - Dec 30^th, 2015 at 10:17pm So his/her kids won't get the insurance for her untimely death that provides no substantial cause? Just asking.......
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Grappler Deep State Feller

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Re: Baden Clay wins appeal.
Reply #303 - Dec 30^th, 2015 at 10:23pm

Kytro wrote on Dec 30^th, 2015 at 4:03pm:

red baron wrote on Dec 30^th, 2015 at 3:54pm:

Yes...I meant Allison...sorry to that in Allison's memory.

I hear you Aussie but when looking at all the circumstances involving this case and what I personally consider was the overwhelming factor in his decision to murder her, the one million dollar get out of financial ruin clause.

I am on the side of the original Jury. In any case there will always be legal argument on the finer points of the law.

But we live and die by the Jury system and I am personally convinced the Jury got it dead right in this matter.

The entire reason the appeal was successful was because the panel of judges believed there was an alternative plausible explanation, and in that circumstance there shouldn't have been a murder trail in the first place.

It does not matter if murder was "more likely" or not. It matters only that it wasn't the only viable explanation.

The Criminal Code require 'proof beyond reasonable doubt' - not any 'balance of probabilities'. It is of no meaning to suggest that 'murder was more likely' - or that - given the evidence - any homicide even too place. Murder or homicide must be proven - not accorded any balance of probabilities.

I warned in 1992, in my submission to the NSW Law Reform Commission, that 'domestic violence legislation' carried with it the very clear and present danger of reducing ANY court action involving a woman to the civil standard of 'balance of probabilities'.

This appears to have become reality in this case.... as a substantial extension of the crucifixion of countless men under 'domestic violence laws'.

I warned you about the loss of civil and personal liberties. Beyond here be Dragons....

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“Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.”
― John Adams

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Grappler Deep State Feller

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Re: Baden Clay wins appeal.
Reply #304 - Dec 30^th, 2015 at 10:24pm

Neferti wrote on Dec 30^th, 2015 at 4:24pm:

Kytro wrote on Dec 30^th, 2015 at 4:03pm:

I hear you Aussie but when looking at all the circumstances involving this case and what I personally consider was the overwhelming factor in his decision to murder her, the one million dollar get out of financial ruin clause.

I am on the side of the original Jury. In any case there will always be legal argument on the finer points of the law.

But we live and die by the Jury system and I am personally convinced the Jury got it dead right in this matter.

The entire reason the appeal was successful was because the panel of judges believed there was an alternative plausible explanation, and in that circumstance there shouldn't have been a murder trail in the first place.

It does not matter if murder was "more likely" or not. It matters only that it wasn't the only viable explanation.

Murder -v- Manslaughter?

Murder seems to mean that you INTENDED to kill. Manslaughter seems to me that it was an "accident" ... although when trying to rape and strangle you COULD say to yourself " geeze, what the f**k am I doing?" and stop doing it .... but you don't. That's manslaughter?

I am not certain but I presume that, in Australia, Murder and Manslaughter can attract the same "incarceration", i.e. 25 years without Parole.

So, the people protesting GBC's "downgrade" from Murder to Manslaughter are only upset because they think he will get out of Gaol early? I thought he sentence would NOT change. IF it does, I , too will be pissed off.

There is no proof positive of HOW she died............ where do you get 'strangulation'?

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“Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.”
― John Adams

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Grappler Deep State Feller

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Re: Baden Clay wins appeal.
Reply #305 - Dec 30^th, 2015 at 10:26pm

cods wrote on Dec 30^th, 2015 at 9:27pm:

I'll jump off the fence and express an opinion on what I reckon the High Court will do when I see the grounds of appeal.

A possible outcome is that the High Court does not even grant threshold permission ('leave') to appeal. I really do not see any new legal issue in contest, or, to be frank, any great matter of significant public interest (as that term is used in High Court appeal contexts.)

But, I'll wait to see the grounds before getting off the fence.
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Grin

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There you hit upon the nub of jurisprudence and appeal.... the rigid adherence to, not only the case presented at the first hearing - but the assumption that a finding by a jury is correct regardless of fact.

Many a man has lost his life that way......

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“Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.”
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cods

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Re: Baden Clay wins appeal.
Reply #306 - Dec 31^st, 2015 at 7:59am

Grappler Deep State Feller wrote on Dec 30^th, 2015 at 10:24pm:

There is no proof positive of HOW she died............ where do you get 'strangulation'

she could have been suffocated maybe with a plastic bag..... she could have scratched him if he came up behind her......

why did he dump her and then act all the while like she had just left the house whilst he was asleep... Roll Eyes

if he could prove she died in an accident...why didnt he... dont tell me he panicked...he was solid as a rock..

sorry he had plenty of time to come clean....before they found her....

to me all the lying and denial all adds to his guilt not the other way around....

and its been 2.3 years and now they are saying he was an accident.........well well well.

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cods

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Re: Baden Clay wins appeal.
Reply #307 - Dec 31^st, 2015 at 8:01am

Grappler Deep State Feller wrote on Dec 30^th, 2015 at 10:17pm:

So his/her kids won't get the insurance for her untimely death that provides no substantial cause?

Just asking.......

I am not sure if thats anyone business to be honest....but if he gets out of jail before they are old enough guess who might get some benefit???..

what a terrible thing for those girls to have to deal with..

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Alinta

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Re: Baden Clay wins appeal.
Reply #308 - Dec 31^st, 2015 at 8:21am

cods wrote on Dec 31^st, 2015 at 7:59am:

Grappler Deep State Feller wrote on Dec 30^th, 2015 at 10:24pm:

There is no proof positive of HOW she died............ where do you get 'strangulation'

she could have been suffocated maybe with a plastic bag..... she could have scratched him if he came up behind her......

why did he dump her and then act all the while like she had just left the house whilst he was asleep... Roll Eyes

if he could prove she died in an accident...why didnt he... dont tell me he panicked...he was solid as a rock..

sorry he had plenty of time to come clean....before they found her....

to me all the lying and denial all adds to his guilt not the other way around....

and its been 2.3 years and now they are saying he was an accident.........well well well.

Cods, do you wish to read the autopsy report?

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cods

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Re: Baden Clay wins appeal.
Reply #309 - Dec 31^st, 2015 at 8:54am

Alinta wrote on Dec 31^st, 2015 at 8:21am:

cods wrote on Dec 31^st, 2015 at 7:59am:

Grappler Deep State Feller wrote on Dec 30^th, 2015 at 10:24pm:

There is no proof positive of HOW she died............ where do you get 'strangulation'

she could have been suffocated maybe with a plastic bag..... she could have scratched him if he came up behind her......

why did he dump her and then act all the while like she had just left the house whilst he was asleep... Roll Eyes

if he could prove she died in an accident...why didnt he... dont tell me he panicked...he was solid as a rock..

sorry he had plenty of time to come clean....before they found her....

to me all the lying and denial all adds to his guilt not the other way around....

and its been 2.3 years and now they are saying he was an accident.........well well well.

Cods, do you wish to read the autopsy report?

well.. I am not sure I would understand it......all I have read is the coroner.could not find a cause of death.. does it explain anything on how she died????????.

I mean she is dead isnt she....and I dont understand how they cant tell how she died............

at the end of the day alinta... only one person knows how she died??????>..

if you think I would understand it I am up for it..lol.. I read his appeal.... and look forward to Monday to see what the DPP is saying.......I can see the holes his lawyers have punched in the case....when its all worded nicely ion their favour it looks sort of o.k.ish.......petty and I think the down grade was done in haste...

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Kytro

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Re: Baden Clay wins appeal.
Reply #310 - Dec 31^st, 2015 at 9:17am

cods wrote on Dec 31^st, 2015 at 7:59am:

Grappler Deep State Feller wrote on Dec 30^th, 2015 at 10:24pm:

There is no proof positive of HOW she died............ where do you get 'strangulation'

she could have been suffocated maybe with a plastic bag..... she could have scratched him if he came up behind her......

why did he dump her and then act all the while like she had just left the house whilst he was asleep... Roll Eyes

if he could prove she died in an accident...why didnt he... dont tell me he panicked...he was solid as a rock..

sorry he had plenty of time to come clean....before they found her....

to me all the lying and denial all adds to his guilt not the other way around....

and its been 2.3 years and now they are saying he was an accident.........well well well.

None of which discounts the possibility it was accidental. and that's the key point. That's why the initial appeal was successful. Murder may be a better explanation, but that's not the point. the point is there is another explanation.

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Alinta

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Re: Baden Clay wins appeal.
Reply #311 - Dec 31^st, 2015 at 9:19am

cods wrote on Dec 31^st, 2015 at 8:54am:

Alinta wrote on Dec 31^st, 2015 at 8:21am:

cods wrote on Dec 31^st, 2015 at 7:59am:

Grappler Deep State Feller wrote on Dec 30^th, 2015 at 10:24pm:

There is no proof positive of HOW she died............ where do you get 'strangulation'

she could have been suffocated maybe with a plastic bag..... she could have scratched him if he came up behind her......

why did he dump her and then act all the while like she had just left the house whilst he was asleep... Roll Eyes

if he could prove she died in an accident...why didnt he... dont tell me he panicked...he was solid as a rock..

sorry he had plenty of time to come clean....before they found her....

to me all the lying and denial all adds to his guilt not the other way around....

and its been 2.3 years and now they are saying he was an accident.........well well well.

Cods, do you wish to read the autopsy report?

well.. I am not sure I would understand it......all I have read is the coroner.could not find a cause of death.. does it explain anything on how she died????????.

I mean she is dead isnt she....and I dont understand how they cant tell how she died............

at the end of the day alinta... only one person knows how she died??????>..

if you think I would understand it I am up for it..lol.. I read his appeal.... and look forward to Monday to see what the DPP is saying.......I can see the holes his lawyers have punched in the case....when its all worded nicely ion their favour it looks sort of o.k.ish.......petty and I think the down grade was done in haste...

I think it will help you understand why no cause of death could be established Cods.

https://aussiecriminals.files.wordpress.com/2013/03/autopsy-report1.pdf

Yep, I've read...and read...and read the Court of Appeal transcript......almost to the point of obsession I'll admit........it has me at the stage where if I thought for one second that access to the original trial transcript would be given, I would part with good money to obtain a copy. There has to be something in there the DPP believes the Court of Appeal has overlooked/ misinterpreted/etc.....hence its seeking Leave to Appeal to the HC.

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Kytro

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Re: Baden Clay wins appeal.
Reply #312 - Dec 31^st, 2015 at 9:23am

Alinta wrote on Dec 31^st, 2015 at 9:19am:

Yep, I've read...and read...and read the Court of Appeal transcript......almost to the point of obsession I'll admit........it has me at the stage where if I thought for one second that access to the original trial transcript would be given, I would part with good money to obtain a copy. There has to be something in there the Court of Appeal has overlooked/ misinterpreted/etc that the DPP has picked up on.......hence its seeking Leave to Appeal to the HC.

I suspect this is mostly due to political pressure, but we will see, maybe that have a good basis. One of the retired SC judges doesn't like their chances though.

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toots Full Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 146	Re: Baden Clay wins appeal. Reply #313 - Dec 31^st, 2015 at 9:25am I thought it was because the prosecutor didn't tell the jury that Jerard rang the insurance company one week before and was told because he wasn't the policy holder, they could not give him any information. For some reason, they decided not to tell the jury about it. Not good.
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Alinta

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Re: Baden Clay wins appeal.
Reply #314 - Dec 31^st, 2015 at 9:32am

Kytro wrote on Dec 31^st, 2015 at 9:23am:

Alinta wrote on Dec 31^st, 2015 at 9:19am:

Yep, I've read...and read...and read the Court of Appeal transcript......almost to the point of obsession I'll admit........it has me at the stage where if I thought for one second that access to the original trial transcript would be given, I would part with good money to obtain a copy. There has to be something in there the Court of Appeal has overlooked/ misinterpreted/etc that the DPP has picked up on.......hence its seeking Leave to Appeal to the HC.

I suspect this is mostly due to political pressure, but we will see, maybe that have a good basis. One of the retired SC judges doesn't like their chances though.

Definitely wait and see. Yes, I read that article........the retired judge also said he had not read the trial transcript.

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