Australian Politics Forum - Baden Clay wins appeal.

cods Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 88048	Re: Baden Clay wins appeal. Reply #885 - Jan 13^th, 2016 at 10:08pm greggerypeccary wrote on Jan 13^th, 2016 at 7:13pm: How would any of us know I am about to re read the book.. so I WILL KNOW>
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Grappler Deep State Feller

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Re: Baden Clay wins appeal.
Reply #886 - Jan 13^th, 2016 at 11:41pm

greggerypeccary wrote on Jan 13^th, 2016 at 6:51pm:

Neferti wrote on Jan 13^th, 2016 at 6:50pm:

IF I hear that GBC has been attacked in prison and died .... i will celebrate his demise. His 3 little girls do NOT need to see him, ever again.

So, who told you that he smothered her?

Indeed - that has never been established - but the jury apparently assumed that to be the case. It would appear they used the civil standard of 'balance of probabilities' - as I warned would become entrenched in the public and the judicial mind in my dissenting view to the Law Reform Commission of NSW over the intended standards of 'uniform domestic violence laws'.

I warned then that any such move would create a predisposition to find guilt on that lower standard in any case where a woman was the victim - and thus this entire move was intended to to reduce Rights Under Law. This has come to pass...... and it is distinctly possible that Baden Clay is a victim of that deliberately generated mindset, ESPECIALLY when there is NO substantial evidence.

If I happen to walk by as a roadside bomb goes off and am uninjured or injured slightly - does that mean I am the bomber? I take blood thinners - I have scraped my face shaving and can look like I've hit a barbed-wire fence - does that mean I was in a fight with a woman who scratched me?

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« Last Edit: Jan 14^th, 2016 at 12:01am by Grappler Deep State Feller »

“Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.”
― John Adams

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Grappler Deep State Feller

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Re: Baden Clay wins appeal.
Reply #887 - Jan 13^th, 2016 at 11:43pm

cods wrote on Jan 13^th, 2016 at 10:08pm:

greggerypeccary wrote on Jan 13^th, 2016 at 7:13pm:

How would any of us know

I am about to re read the book.. so I WILL KNOW>

And a book based on a conclusion already drawn will tell you what?

I read a book by a journalist about Martin Bryant - it was full of assumptions, errors, obfuscations and pub lore......

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“Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.”
― John Adams

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greggerypeccary Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 140152 Gender:	Re: Baden Clay wins appeal. Reply #888 - Jan 14^th, 2016 at 8:18am Lisa Jones wrote on Jan 13^th, 2016 at 4:32pm: In my view, the case was not managed properly by the Prosecution. It made a few mistakes which left loopholes ie opportunities which were subsequently exploited by Baden's defence team. What mistakes, exactly?
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cods

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Re: Baden Clay wins appeal.
Reply #889 - Jan 14^th, 2016 at 8:31am

Grappler Deep State Feller wrote on Jan 13^th, 2016 at 11:41pm:

greggerypeccary wrote on Jan 13^th, 2016 at 6:51pm:

Neferti wrote on Jan 13^th, 2016 at 6:50pm:

IF I hear that GBC has been attacked in prison and died .... i will celebrate his demise. His 3 little girls do NOT need to see him, ever again.

So, who told you that he smothered her?

Indeed - that has never been established - but the jury apparently assumed that to be the case. It would appear they used the civil standard of 'balance of probabilities' - as I warned would become entrenched in the public and the judicial mind in my dissenting view to the Law Reform Commission of NSW over the intended standards of 'uniform domestic violence laws'.

I warned then that any such move would create a predisposition to find guilt on that lower standard in any case where a woman was the victim - and thus this entire move was intended to to reduce Rights Under Law. This has come to pass...... and it is distinctly possible that Baden Clay is a victim of that deliberately generated mindset, ESPECIALLY when there is NO substantial evidence.

If I happen to walk by as a roadside bomb goes off and am uninjured or injured slightly - does that mean I am the bomber? I take blood thinners - I have scraped my face shaving and can look like I've hit a barbed-wire fence - does that mean I was in a fight with a woman who scratched me?

then again.... this being a serious SUBJECT well to some of us.....

it doesnt matter what the consequences are in a DEATH.........its the INTENTIONS of either party that MATTERS..

in this case male alive women dead..

did HE... INTENTIONALLY KILL HER

did she in fact INTENTIONALLY START AND ALTERCATION THAT ENDED IN HER DYING..

please NOTE emphasis is on INTENTION....

then add in both

PROVED ....BEYOND A REASONABLE DOUBT..

to me its an almost impossible measure to take...but somehow 12 jurymen AND OR WOMEN...need to have that blessed judgement...

you are so judgemental when it comes to women.. you are extremely messed up...this is not about male or female.. its about the charges being reduced from MURDER to MANSLAUGHTER....by the stoke of a pen...

some of us.. me at least..

keep asking HOW would anyone find out what HIS intentions were???..how does this appeal court decide their was no proof BEYOND A REASONABLE DOUBT..he INTENDED to kill..

how do you PROVE ANYTHING ANYONE DOES ON THE SPUR OF THE MOMENT...........

the way I see it..

if he didnt INTEND to kill her... why not ring for an ambulance to try and save her...

.how do we know she wasnt alive when dropped off the bridge..

no one knows... yet the appeal court thinks thats good enough to call it manslaughter...

b ecause you cannot prove what someone was thinking at the time of death... Roll Eyes

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Lisa Jones

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Re: Baden Clay wins appeal.
Reply #890 - Jan 14^th, 2016 at 9:12am

Grappler Deep State Feller wrote on Jan 13^th, 2016 at 11:43pm:

cods wrote on Jan 13^th, 2016 at 10:08pm:

greggerypeccary wrote on Jan 13^th, 2016 at 7:13pm:

How would any of us know

I am about to re read the book.. so I WILL KNOW>

And a book based on a conclusion already drawn will tell you what?

I read a book by a journalist about Martin Bryant - it was full of assumptions, errors, obfuscations and pub lore......

Not all books are like that.

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If I let myself be bought then I am no longer free.

HYPATIA - Greek philosopher, mathematician and astronomer (370 - 415)

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Alinta

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Re: Baden Clay wins appeal.
Reply #891 - Jan 14^th, 2016 at 9:48am

Lisa Jones wrote on Jan 14^th, 2016 at 9:12am:

Grappler Deep State Feller wrote on Jan 13^th, 2016 at 11:43pm:

cods wrote on Jan 13^th, 2016 at 10:08pm:

greggerypeccary wrote on Jan 13^th, 2016 at 7:13pm:

How would any of us know

I am about to re read the book.. so I WILL KNOW>

And a book based on a conclusion already drawn will tell you what?

I read a book by a journalist about Martin Bryant - it was full of assumptions, errors, obfuscations and pub lore......

Not all books are like that.

Yes......I've read the book to which Cods refers and found nothing contradictory to the diary /journal evidence shown at trial as per the link below.

Link is supplied SOLELY for the evidence.........the journalist commentary is superfluous to my purpose.

http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/queensland/brisbane-supreme-court-releases-jo...

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red baron

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Re: Baden Clay wins appeal.
Reply #892 - Jan 14^th, 2016 at 1:55pm

Please note the extract I have copied from the Appeal Summary:

It is important to note that the Crown did not at trial contend that the killing of Mrs Baden-Clay was in any way premeditated or that the appellant might have been motivated by some benefit he stood to gain from his wife’s death.5 The respondent’s written submissions here spoke of the identified financial and emotional pressures as going to
“motive, as that term is understood to signify an explanation for uncharacteristic conduct”;
contending that, having regard to them, the jury could find that the appellant
“acted uncharacteristically, but nevertheless deliberately and with intent”....end quote

I believe this item is of exceptional significance.

How could a $967,000 Insurance Policy on Alison Baden-Clay's wife not be a Prime Motivating factor in Gerard considering murdering his wife?

His financial affairs were dreadful and it has been quoted 'that they were on the bones of their financial arse'.

If I can see any weakness in the Crown Case at the Original Trial it is this.

Absolutely gobsmacking that they didn't use this incredible factor to press home the Prosecution.

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greggerypeccary Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 140152 Gender:	Re: Baden Clay wins appeal. Reply #893 - Jan 14^th, 2016 at 2:00pm red baron wrote on Jan 14^th, 2016 at 1:55pm: His financial affairs were dreadful and it has been quoted 'that they were on the bones of their financial arse'. Indeed. That doesn't prove that he was motivated by an insurance payout though.
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Aussie

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Re: Baden Clay wins appeal.
Reply #894 - Jan 14^th, 2016 at 2:31pm

red baron wrote on Jan 14^th, 2016 at 1:55pm:

Please note the extract I have copied from the Appeal Summary:

It is important to note that the Crown did not at trial contend that the killing of Mrs Baden-Clay was in any way premeditated or that the appellant might have been motivated by some benefit he stood to gain from his wife’s death.5 The respondent’s written submissions here spoke of the identified financial and emotional pressures as going to
“motive, as that term is understood to signify an explanation for uncharacteristic conduct”;
contending that, having regard to them, the jury could find that the appellant
“acted uncharacteristically, but nevertheless deliberately and with intent”....end quote

I believe this item is of exceptional significance.

How could a $967,000 Insurance Policy on Alison Baden-Clay's wife not be a Prime Motivating factor in Gerard considering murdering his wife?

His financial affairs were dreadful and it has been quoted 'that they were on the bones of their financial arse'.

If I can see any weakness in the Crown Case at the Original Trial it is this.

Absolutely gobsmacking that they didn't use this incredible factor to press home the Prosecution.

Mr Baron, I've just re-read the Appeal Court decision and you have convoluted what was said in that decision which is:

Quote:

It is important to note that the Crown did not at trial contend that the killing of Mrs Baden-Clay was in any way premeditated or that the appellant might have been motivated by some benefit he stood to gain from his wife’s death.

The respondent’s written submissions here spoke of the identified financial and emotional pressures as going to “motive, as that term is understood to signify an explanation for uncharacteristic conduct”; contending that, having regard to them, the jury could find that the appellant “acted uncharacteristically, but nevertheless deliberately and with intent”. But that does not seem an apposite use of the word “motive”. To explain why somebody might be in a volatile emotional state is not to provide a motive for his conduct; to say that he might act out of character in using violence does nothing to establish a reason or purpose for his doing so. It was not, of course, incumbent on the Crown to establish a motive, but to do so might have assisted in proving an intent to kill or do grievous bodily harm. The evidence of financial stress and the extra-marital affair suggested a context of strain between the couple which might well have culminated in a confrontation; but it did not provide a motive or point to murder rather than manslaughter.

*snip*

Although there was evidence of an insurance policy on Mrs Baden-Clay’s life, the Crown at trial disavowed any suggestion that the appellant had killed her in order to benefit from it.

It is also worthy of note that not one of his creditors was pushing for payment, and also, the financial 'bones of the arse' position was not sudden. It had existed for months.

Nah, Mr Baron.....you are over-reaching yet again with hyperbole and cliche.

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cods

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Re: Baden Clay wins appeal.
Reply #895 - Jan 14^th, 2016 at 2:57pm

Grappler Deep State Feller wrote on Jan 13^th, 2016 at 11:43pm:

cods wrote on Jan 13^th, 2016 at 10:08pm:

greggerypeccary wrote on Jan 13^th, 2016 at 7:13pm:

How would any of us know

I am about to re read the book.. so I WILL KNOW>

And a book based on a conclusion already drawn will tell you what?

I read a book by a journalist about Martin Bryant - it was full of assumptions, errors, obfuscations and pub lore......

well its a book about Allison to b e honest....from people who knew her well....

I havent read your adventures of your life grap...... but I am sure if I did I would also take them with a grain of salt..

Roll Eyes

how do you know the book on Bryant was full of ERRORS>>????

did you know him personally????>..

or had he written his own autobiography....

so you could compare??

perhaps you lived near Martin and had first hand knowledge of him..

to condemn a book as ruthlessly as you have... means you had some first hand knowledge of this young man... Roll Eyes

lets hear it?>

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Redmond Neck Gold Member Offline OzPolitic Posts: 21753 ACT Gender:	Re: Baden Clay wins appeal. Reply #896 - Jan 14^th, 2016 at 3:11pm You are wasted on here Aussie! Why dont you use all your expert knowledge on one of these! https://www.google.com.au/?gws_rd=ssl#q=legal+forum+australia
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Aussie

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Re: Baden Clay wins appeal.
Reply #897 - Jan 14^th, 2016 at 3:15pm

Redmond Neck wrote on Jan 14^th, 2016 at 3:11pm:

You are wasted on here Aussie!

Why dont you use all your expert knowledge on one of these!

https://www.google.com.au/?gws_rd=ssl#q=legal+forum+australia

Yeas, I know, but I'm willing to wallow as a community service. I'm that kinda guy, you know.

Just an afterthought.....can you imagine the bullshit which would stay up/be posted here and be taken as gospel by the gullible? I think I should be the 2016 Australian of the Year as a reward for the sacrifice I have made and the excellent community service delivered!

*First exception for 2016 follows*

Grin

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cods Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 88048	Re: Baden Clay wins appeal. Reply #898 - Jan 14^th, 2016 at 3:23pm Redmond Neck wrote on Jan 14^th, 2016 at 3:11pm: You are wasted on here Aussie! Why dont you use all your expert knowledge on one of these! https://www.google.com.au/?gws_rd=ssl#q=legal+forum+australia he probably does..gweg is his Paul Drake...
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Neferti

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Re: Baden Clay wins appeal.
Reply #899 - Jan 14^th, 2016 at 3:31pm

greggerypeccary wrote on Jan 14^th, 2016 at 2:00pm:

red baron wrote on Jan 14^th, 2016 at 1:55pm:

His financial affairs were dreadful and it has been quoted 'that they were on the bones of their financial arse'.

Indeed.

That doesn't prove that he was motivated by an insurance payout though.

Stop making excuses for the jerk. He killed her. Then moved her body and threw it over a bridge like a bit of rubbish. Why or How he did it is irrelevant. He is still GUILTY of MURDER and should get LIFE. Who else was there to commit this crime? His 3 little kids? Sure. That's it. They all teamed up and captured her and "something" went wrong and she suffocated ....... too bad, so sad. For dog's sake!

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