Australian Politics Forum - Islam Vs Free speech in Australia

polite_gandalf

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Re: Islam Vs Free speech in Australia
Reply #75 - Dec 15^th, 2015 at 9:12am

freediver wrote on Dec 14^th, 2015 at 8:05pm:

So far the only explanation Kat has given for why 90% of them are ignorant bigots is that they are ignorant bigots. Sounds like prejudice to me.

I suppose 'ignorant' and 'bigot' could be considered subjective. So the question for you FD is what do you consider ignorant and bigoted? Is it like how you treat racism - ie not existent to the point where we ridicule it with really clever words like "wacist" whenever its mentioned?

I'm guessing Kat looks at the constant stream of comments from Yadda and Sprint and others. Many people would consider the comments by these posters as ignorant and bigoted. What do you think FD? Is saying things like every single muslim in a latent wannabe homocidal maniac bigoted? Or is saying that all muslims in Australia should be deported bigoted? Or how about labelling an assault by 15 thugs on a shop owner and his wife in Scotland for what happened in Paris as "totally justified"?

I'm genuinely interested in what you would consider ignorant and/or bigoted in regards to anti-Islamic rhetoric, because you have been notably silent on the topic. You seem to be only interested in mocking the claim that anti-Islamic rhetoric can be bigoted or racist or ignorant - whenever it comes up.

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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Yadda

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Re: Islam Vs Free speech in Australia
Reply #76 - Dec 15^th, 2015 at 9:55am

polite_gandalf wrote on Dec 15^th, 2015 at 9:12am:

I suppose 'ignorant' and 'bigot' could be considered subjective.
.....
.....

I'm guessing Kat looks at the constant stream of comments from Yadda and Sprint and others.

Many people would consider the comments by these posters as ignorant and bigoted.

What do you think FD?

Is saying things like every single muslim in a latent wannabe homocidal maniac bigoted?

gandalf,

You call me a bigot [...which i do deny].

And yet, you yourself, you deny the very real obligations, which are imposed upon you [by your deity, no less!!!, as per the content of the Koran], in remaining, being a moslem,

Why is that gandalf.

Why do you brush off, every reference, to your religious obligations of a moslem ?

e.g.

http://pickeringpost.com/story/the-apologist-for-islam-better-start-apologising/...
Quote:

1. Is Mohamed the supreme example of a human being?

2. Does the Qur'an command muslims to 'obey Allah and the messenger?'

3. Do you follow the example of Mohamed?

4. Are you a true muslim if you reject the example of Mohamed and disobey the Qur'an?

gandalf,

You call me hateful and bigoted.....
[.....because of my analysis of ISLAM, and ISLAM's scripture, and because of my opinion, of what is motivating the vicious and inhuman behaviour of many moslems,    ....always, in those places, 'moslem lands', where moslems find themselves unrestrained by 'things' like Western laws.]

And yet, you YOURSELF, absolutely refuse to acknowledge the hatred and the religious bigotry which is inherent within ISLAM.

And you refuse to acknowledge the legitimate ISLAMIC authority of, and the existence of, the hatred and the religious bigotry which is seen throughout almost all of authorised ISLAMIC scripture.

e.g.

"....Lo! Allah is an enemy to those who reject Faith."
Koran 2.98

"....those who reject Allah have no protector."
Koran 47.008
v. 8-11

"Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued. "
Koran 9.29

"There is for you an excellent example (to follow) in Abraham and those with him, when they said to their people: "We are clear of you and of whatever ye worship besides Allah: we have rejected you, and there has arisen, between us and you, enmity and hatred for ever,- unless ye believe in Allah and Him alone"....."
Koran 60:4

.

ISLAMIC LAW....          !!!!!!!

"Ibn 'Abbas reported that the Prophet said: "The bare essence of Islam and the basics of the religion are three [acts], upon which Islam has been established. Whoever leaves one of them becomes an unbeliever and his blood may legally be spilled. [The acts are:] Testifying that there is no God except Allah, the obligatory prayers, and the fast of Ramadan."...."
fiqhussunnah/#3.110

n.b.
"Whoever......becomes an unbeliever.....his blood may legally be spilled."

.

gandalf,

You call me a bigot    [...which i do deny].

I call you, hypocrite, and, a denier of truth.

You are an infidel, imo.

Look the word up in a dictionary gandalf.

.

gandalf, referring to my own statements.....
Quote:

.....Is saying things like every single muslim in a latent wannabe homocidal maniac bigoted?

Yaddas mitigation.....

---------- >

CRIMINAL INTENT, IN THE MOSLEM HEART
http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1252898491/0#0
Quote:

Every moslem in Australia [and indeed, every moslem on the planet], by self declaring as a moslem, is self declaring a criminal intent [by our laws] against local non-moslems.

ISLAM is a criminal compact among moslems, to wage a violent 'religious' war against non-moslems ['disbelievers'].

.....Basically, fundamentally, all ISLAMIC doctrine translates as enmity, and encourages [criminal] violence, towards ALL non-moslems.

.

Yadda said....
http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1431117115/1#1
Quote:

"every moslem in Australia is a latent, wanna-be homicidal maniac"

- Yadda

QUESTION;
What about the innocent moslems ?

IMO, [logically] there are no innocent moslems [among persons who have come to the age of consent], and yet still declare themselves to be moslems.

How so [logically] ?

QUESTION;
How credible is it that a person who is devout enough to insist that he is a moslem, is unaware of what ISLAM promotes, and is unaware of what the principle tenets of ISLAM are ?

QUESTION;
How 'innocent' is a person who agrees to give aid and comfort [and to give their own 'power'], ...to a philosophy which transforms human beings, into homicidal maniacs ?

QUESTION;
How 'innocent' is a person who agrees to give aid and comfort [and to give their own 'power'], ...to a philosophy which claims that murdering, in the cause of religious bigotry, is a religious virtue ?

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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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polite_gandalf Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 20027 Canberra Gender:	Re: Islam Vs Free speech in Australia Reply #77 - Dec 15^th, 2015 at 10:01am translation: gandalf you are a bigot because you believe what I say you believe. Not because of anything you've actually said mind you.
Back to top	A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said: Quote: Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms. IP Logged

Yadda

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Re: Islam Vs Free speech in Australia
Reply #78 - Dec 15^th, 2015 at 10:16am

polite_gandalf wrote on Dec 15^th, 2015 at 10:01am:

translation: gandalf you are a bigot ......because you believe what I say you believe.

Not because of anything you've actually said mind you.

gandalf,

IMO, you are a moslem.

Why so [logically] ?

Because you do, self-declare, as being a moslem.

And, imo, it is that condition which also makes you a religious bigot.

Why so [logically] ?

--------- >

Every moslem, is a moslem.

Every moslem, who self-declares, who insists, that he is a moslem, .....is a person who is declaring that he chooses to follow and support ISLAM.

As a moslem, he/she is thereby choosing to follow and support what ISLAM is.

That is what a moslem is.

And, he does agree with, and support ALL of ISLAM's tenets and laws.

That is what a moslem is.

And every moslem reveres the example of Mohammed [Allah's messenger], .... and every moslem is taught [from childhood] by his religion, that he aught to follow the example of Mohammed's life. !!!!!

That is what a moslem is.

THE LIFE OF MOHAMMED [Allah's messenger], IS AN EXAMPLE TO THE MOSLEM,

.....IT IS AN EXAMPLE WHICH DECLARES, THAT MURDERING DISBELIEVERS, FOR YOUR 'RELIGION' IS HALAL [permitted]....

THE HADITH....

"...the Prophet said, 'If somebody (a Muslim) discards his religion, kill him."

- DEAD.
hadithsunnah/bukhari/ #004.052.260

.

Yadda said....
http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1414013899/0#0
Quote:

A moslem, is a person who chooses to embrace a philosophy [ISLAM], which teaches them [moslems] that it is 'lawful' for them [moslems], to kill those, who do not believe, as they believe.

That is what a moslem is.

.

Yadda said....
http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1424590530/21#21
Quote:

THE PERSON WHO DECLARES HIMSELF TO BE, A MOSLEM ------- >

By definition, 'the moslem' is a person who 'subscribes' to the tenets and laws and 'ideals' of ISLAM.

That, is the essential definition of a 'moslem'.

And these monsters [moslems] live among us.

.

Yadda said....
Quote:

All moslems are monsters in human form, imo.

How do i justify such an accusation ?

-------->

Where is Tony-missing-in-action-Abbott ???
http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1421158879/6#6

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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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Karnal

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Re: Islam Vs Free speech in Australia
Reply #79 - Dec 15^th, 2015 at 10:16am

polite_gandalf wrote on Dec 15^th, 2015 at 9:12am:

freediver wrote on Dec 14^th, 2015 at 8:05pm:

So far the only explanation Kat has given for why 90% of them are ignorant bigots is that they are ignorant bigots. Sounds like prejudice to me.

I suppose 'ignorant' and 'bigot' could be considered subjective. So the question for you FD is what do you consider ignorant and bigoted? Is it like how you treat racism - ie not existent to the point where we ridicule it with really clever words like "wacist" whenever its mentioned?

I'm guessing Kat looks at the constant stream of comments from Yadda and Sprint and others. Many people would consider the comments by these posters as ignorant and bigoted. What do you think FD? Is saying things like every single muslim in a latent wannabe homocidal maniac bigoted? Or is saying that all muslims in Australia should be deported bigoted? Or how about labelling an assault by 15 thugs on a shop owner and his wife in Scotland for what happened in Paris as "totally justified"?

I'm genuinely interested in what you would consider ignorant and/or bigoted in regards to anti-Islamic rhetoric, because you have been notably silent on the topic. You seem to be only interested in mocking the claim that anti-Islamic rhetoric can be bigoted or racist or ignorant - whenever it comes up.

Now now, G. Islam is not a race, so you can't be bigoted. Moslem == a follower of Islam, so it's perfectly justifiable to ban them, kill them, nuke them, etc.

The old boy favours intelligence and integrity, so the Muselman must be bashed, killed, carpetbombed, etc.

FD favours Freeeeedom, so Muslims must be detained, attacked, killed, etc, before they take away the freeeeeedoms of decent white people everywhere.

Herbie favours neo-Nazism, so Muslims need to be rounded up and gassed with their apologist friends in the fullness of time.

Y favours Karmic Christianity, so the Moslem needs to be stoned, burned, drowned, etc, and then sent to hell.

Sprint and Moses favour Christianity too. Your Muslim needs to be annihilated in a new holy war.

It may not happen overnight, G, but it will happen.

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freediver

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Re: Islam Vs Free speech in Australia
Reply #80 - Dec 15^th, 2015 at 12:52pm

philperth2010 wrote on Dec 14^th, 2015 at 9:40pm:

freediver wrote on Dec 14^th, 2015 at 9:36pm:

philperth2010 wrote on Dec 14^th, 2015 at 8:38pm:

There is no doubting there is a problem with radical Islam all over the world....I see nothing wrong with pointing this out and calling it for what it is....However just like I don't condemn all religious people for the failings of the few I stand by those who worship in peace!!!

Never confuse the faith with the supposedly faithful.
Randy K. Milholland, Something Positive Comic, 10-19-06

Sounds to me like you are confusing the faith with the faithful. Is it "radical Muslims" or "radical Islam" that you really have a problem with?

Do you have a problem with Islam?

No!!!

Are you saying you have no problem with Muslim terrorists, for example?

What in your mind is the difference between radical and non-radical Islam?

Quote:

I never said there was not a problem with Islam....

So you do have a problem with Islam?

Quote:

Perhaps you should try to read what people write instead of trying to prove a point???

Perhaps you could try to make sense.

Quote:

I suppose 'ignorant' and 'bigot' could be considered subjective. So the question for you FD is what do you consider ignorant and bigoted?

Thanks Gandalf. I can trust you to turn my efforts to make sense of Kat's posts around to a demand for me to clarify. Perhaps an example will do. Kat's post accusing a group of people of being ignorant and bigoted, without having a clue why, is ignorant and bigoted.

Quote:

I'm guessing Kat looks at the constant stream of comments from Yadda and Sprint and others.

She was not referring to them Gandalf.

Quote:

translation: gandalf you are a bigot because you believe what I say you believe. Not because of anything you've actually said mind you.

Gandalf can you apply the same logic to Kat's criticism of a bunch of people she doesn't know?

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polite_gandalf

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Re: Islam Vs Free speech in Australia
Reply #81 - Dec 15^th, 2015 at 1:17pm

freediver wrote on Dec 15^th, 2015 at 12:52pm:

Thanks Gandalf. I can trust you to turn my efforts to make sense of Kat's posts around to a demand for me to clarify. Perhaps an example will do. Kat's post accusing a group of people of being ignorant and bigoted, without having a clue why, is ignorant and bigoted.

It makes perfect sense to anyone not covering their ears and shouting "lalala! its all legitimate criticism of ideas!" I agree with Kat that 90% of anti-Islam rhetoric is bigoted and ignorant - a point that needs no clarification for anyone who hasn't got their heads buried in the sand. I referred to examples on this board because I believe they are representative of the general wider discourse on the subject. By the way, do you consider those examples I cited as bigoted? You haven't said.

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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Karnal

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Re: Islam Vs Free speech in Australia
Reply #82 - Dec 15^th, 2015 at 1:17pm

freediver wrote on Dec 15^th, 2015 at 12:52pm:

philperth2010 wrote on Dec 14^th, 2015 at 9:40pm:

freediver wrote on Dec 14^th, 2015 at 9:36pm:

philperth2010 wrote on Dec 14^th, 2015 at 8:38pm:

There is no doubting there is a problem with radical Islam all over the world....I see nothing wrong with pointing this out and calling it for what it is....However just like I don't condemn all religious people for the failings of the few I stand by those who worship in peace!!!

Never confuse the faith with the supposedly faithful.
Randy K. Milholland, Something Positive Comic, 10-19-06

Sounds to me like you are confusing the faith with the faithful. Is it "radical Muslims" or "radical Islam" that you really have a problem with?

Do you have a problem with Islam?

No!!!

Are you saying you have no problem with Muslim terrorists, for example?

What in your mind is the difference between radical and non-radical Islam?

Quote:

I never said there was not a problem with Islam....

So you do have a problem with Islam?

Quote:

Perhaps you should try to read what people write instead of trying to prove a point???

Perhaps you could try to make sense.

Quote:

I suppose 'ignorant' and 'bigot' could be considered subjective. So the question for you FD is what do you consider ignorant and bigoted?

Thanks Gandalf. I can trust you to turn my efforts to make sense of Kat's posts around to a demand for me to clarify. Perhaps an example will do. Kat's post accusing a group of people of being ignorant and bigoted, without having a clue why, is ignorant and bigoted.

Quote:

I'm guessing Kat looks at the constant stream of comments from Yadda and Sprint and others.

She was not referring to them Gandalf.

Quote:

translation: gandalf you are a bigot because you believe what I say you believe. Not because of anything you've actually said mind you.

Gandalf can you apply the same logic to Kat's criticism of a bunch of people she doesn't know?

Good point, FD. If you can't get G to agree, try working on Phil for a few pages.

You can always go back to G, as you have. You'll get him eventually. If he ignores you, make something up. That usually works.

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Karnal

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Re: Islam Vs Free speech in Australia
Reply #83 - Dec 15^th, 2015 at 1:20pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Dec 15^th, 2015 at 1:17pm:

[quote author=freediver link=1449980422/80#80 date=1450147929] By the way, do you consider those examples I cited as bigoted? You haven't said.

Of course not, G. It's all about the ideas. You can't be bigoted against the Muselman. FD says that all the time. The Muselman is not a race, you know.

It's all about Freeeedom. The only thing you're allowed to say is ban them, kill them, nuke them.

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philperth2010

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Re: Islam Vs Free speech in Australia
Reply #84 - Dec 15^th, 2015 at 6:53pm

Once again for FD....

Quote:

There is no doubting there is a problem with radical Islam all over the world....I see nothing wrong with pointing this out and calling it for what it is....However just like I don't condemn all religious people for the failings of the few I stand by those who worship in peace!!!

Never confuse the faith with the supposedly faithful.
Randy K. Milholland, Something Positive Comic, 10-19-06

I differentiate between radical nut jobs who use religion to promote hatred and see no problem pointing this out....I will not condemn all religious people for the actions of a few....What I do not do is throw bullshit semantics up to try and distort the real meanings of other peoples posts....I have made my point and do not need to indulge in a pissing contest with anyone!!!

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If knowledge can create problems, it is not through ignorance that we can solve them.
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freediver

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Re: Islam Vs Free speech in Australia
Reply #85 - Dec 15^th, 2015 at 7:56pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Dec 15^th, 2015 at 1:17pm:

freediver wrote on Dec 15^th, 2015 at 12:52pm:

Thanks Gandalf. I can trust you to turn my efforts to make sense of Kat's posts around to a demand for me to clarify. Perhaps an example will do. Kat's post accusing a group of people of being ignorant and bigoted, without having a clue why, is ignorant and bigoted.

It makes perfect sense to anyone not covering their ears and shouting "lalala! its all legitimate criticism of ideas!" I agree with Kat that 90% of anti-Islam rhetoric is bigoted and ignorant - a point that needs no clarification for anyone who hasn't got their heads buried in the sand. I referred to examples on this board because I believe they are representative of the general wider discourse on the subject. By the way, do you consider those examples I cited as bigoted? You haven't said.

Again, that is not what Kat actually said. If you are going to agree with someone, you could at least check what you are agreeing with.

Quote:

I differentiate between radical nut jobs who use religion to promote hatred and see no problem pointing this out....

OK then, what is the difference? Is like asking what is the difference between a duck?

Quote:

What I do not do is throw bullshit semantics up to try and distort the real meanings of other peoples posts....

I am not trying to distort the meaning of what you posted, I am trying to make sense of it. You are all over the place. That is the whole point of semantics - words have meanings, and if you choose the wrong one, people will hear the opposite of what you intended.

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philperth2010

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Re: Islam Vs Free speech in Australia
Reply #86 - Dec 15^th, 2015 at 8:34pm

freediver wrote on Dec 15^th, 2015 at 7:56pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on Dec 15^th, 2015 at 1:17pm:

freediver wrote on Dec 15^th, 2015 at 12:52pm:

Thanks Gandalf. I can trust you to turn my efforts to make sense of Kat's posts around to a demand for me to clarify. Perhaps an example will do. Kat's post accusing a group of people of being ignorant and bigoted, without having a clue why, is ignorant and bigoted.

It makes perfect sense to anyone not covering their ears and shouting "lalala! its all legitimate criticism of ideas!" I agree with Kat that 90% of anti-Islam rhetoric is bigoted and ignorant - a point that needs no clarification for anyone who hasn't got their heads buried in the sand. I referred to examples on this board because I believe they are representative of the general wider discourse on the subject. By the way, do you consider those examples I cited as bigoted? You haven't said.

Again, that is not what Kat actually said. If you are going to agree with someone, you could at least check what you are agreeing with.

Quote:

I differentiate between radical nut jobs who use religion to promote hatred and see no problem pointing this out....

OK then, what is the difference? Is like asking what is the difference between a duck?

Quote:

What I do not do is throw bullshit semantics up to try and distort the real meanings of other peoples posts....

I am not trying to distort the meaning of what you posted, I am trying to make sense of it. You are all over the place. That is the whole point of semantics - words have meanings, and if you choose the wrong one, people will hear the opposite of what you intended.

Tell me FD is your problem with Islam or religion in general???

Huh

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If knowledge can create problems, it is not through ignorance that we can solve them.
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polite_gandalf

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Re: Islam Vs Free speech in Australia
Reply #87 - Dec 15^th, 2015 at 10:33pm

Here you go fd...

Kat wrote on Dec 13^th, 2015 at 7:00pm:

freediver wrote on Dec 13^th, 2015 at 6:56pm:

Kat wrote on Dec 13^th, 2015 at 3:47pm:

BlueBeard wrote on Dec 13^th, 2015 at 2:31pm:

by the way

just to make things clear to the numbskulls

Islam is not a race

you can't be a racists

by speaking out of its evils

ok?

duh Roll Eyes

No, but I'm sick of hearing this bullsh1t excuse from the bigots to try to justify their ignorance, bigotry and Islamophobia.

It mightn't be racist, but it is ignorant and bigoted.

What exactly is ignorant and bigoted?

90% if the anti-Islam rhetoric being thrown around the place.

looks like kat said exactly what i claimed he/she said (highlighted). And i agree 100% with it.

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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freediver

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Re: Islam Vs Free speech in Australia
Reply #88 - Dec 16^th, 2015 at 9:17pm

Don't you think it is a little odd to describe statements as ignorant?

Quote:

Tell me FD is your problem with Islam or religion in general???

Islam in particular.

Am I right that you claim to not have a problem with Islamic extremists?

You appeared to be attempting to make a distinction between radical Islam and some other Islam. What do you see as the difference?

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philperth2010

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Re: Islam Vs Free speech in Australia
Reply #89 - Dec 16^th, 2015 at 9:40pm

freediver wrote on Dec 16^th, 2015 at 9:17pm:

Don't you think it is a little odd to describe statements as ignorant?

Quote:

Tell me FD is your problem with Islam or religion in general???

Islam in particular.

Am I right that you claim to not have a problem with Islamic extremists?

You appeared to be attempting to make a distinction between radical Islam and some other Islam. What do you see as the difference?

Were did I claim not to have a problem with Islamic extremists???

I believe your argument stems from the belief that Islam is an extremist religion and thus anyone who practices it is an extremist by association....If that is your view you are entitled to it and I will not try to convince you otherwise!!!

Roll Eyes

Never try to reason the prejudice out of a man. It was not reasoned into him, and cannot be reasoned out.
Sydney Smith (1771 - 1845)

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If knowledge can create problems, it is not through ignorance that we can solve them.
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