Australian Politics Forum - Top Companies That Pay No Tax

Bam

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Re: Top Companies That Pay No Tax
Reply #135 - Dec 19^th, 2015 at 8:55am

Jovial Monk wrote on Dec 19^th, 2015 at 7:50am:

When we have some years data I think we can start to draw conclusions. One year is probably not enough data, enough maybe to pick some areas to look into more closely.

I have certainly not said any company or industry is dodging tax or anything like that by dubious means. Carry forward of losses is standard practice, has to be as companies don’t get a tax refund like PAYE earners do.

But in a couple of years I would say some conclusions can start to be drawn.

An example here - Qantas is one of the companies listed as paying no tax. In that financial year the company declared a large loss and this is unusual. In most years the company makes a modest profit.

Where we may exert some scrutiny is the mechanism by which this loss came about. How much of it was a real loss and how much of it was a paper loss?

If we have this information available for several years, we will find that some of those companies paying no tax did so legitimately such as carrying forward prior-year losses. Others did not.

Jovial Monk wrote on Dec 19^th, 2015 at 7:50am:

Why is the banking and finance so high in companies paying little tax? Banks are making record profits.

Four of the top six companies that paid the most tax were the four major banks.

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crocodile

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Re: Top Companies That Pay No Tax
Reply #136 - Dec 19^th, 2015 at 9:01am

Dnarever wrote on Dec 19^th, 2015 at 8:32am:

crocodile wrote on Dec 19^th, 2015 at 7:52am:

Just a side note. Andrew, on his blog has been kind enough to post more of his thoughts on corporate taxation. He wholeheartedly agrees that the majority of the burden of corporate tax falls on labour rather than the owners of capital by a margin of 2/3 to 1/3. His only concern is capturing the foreign dividends. Easily fixed through legislation.

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/1467-8462.12127/full

Seriously, the corporate tax rate of 30% is hurting and we are slowly losing to more competitive jurisdictions.

How can it hurt when nobody pays it.

Corporate and payroll taxes account for 1/4 of the entire government budgets you nonce.

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Very funny Scotty, now beam down my clothes.

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John Smith Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 75097 Gender:	Re: Top Companies That Pay No Tax Reply #137 - Dec 19^th, 2015 at 9:02am crocodile wrote on Dec 19^th, 2015 at 7:52am: Seriously, the corporate tax rate of 30% is hurting and we are slowly losing to more competitive jurisdictions. except that there isn't a single company that pays 25% or more and only about a half a dozen or so that pay over 20%.
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Bam

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Re: Top Companies That Pay No Tax
Reply #138 - Dec 19^th, 2015 at 9:14am

mariacostel wrote on Dec 19^th, 2015 at 6:45am:

Bam wrote on Dec 18^th, 2015 at 10:04pm:

Bam's list of most patriotic companies:
(The top ten companies by tax paid)

BHP BILLITON LIMITED	3,950,825,604
RIO TINTO LTD	3,050,569,573
COMMONWEALTH BANK OF AUSTRALIA	2,872,351,385
WESTPAC BANKING CORPORATION	2,428,665,547
NATIONAL AUSTRALIA BANK LIMITED	2,260,156,675
AUSTRALIA AND NEW ZEALAND BANKING GROUP LIMITED	1,964,803,966
TELSTRA CORPORATION LTD	1,741,846,820
WESFARMERS LIMITED	1,093,140,349
WOOLWORTHS LIMITED	910,864,515
FORTESCUE METALS GROUP LIMITED	737,898,334

Look more closely ... the top ten companies represent only four industries: banking, mining, telecommunications and retail. Does anyone else think we may need more diversity in our economy?

Then stop complaining and start up your own company in a new area. Although why you think FOUR diverse industries in the top ten is a problem is anyones guess.

It's only "anyone's guess" for a simpleton without a capacity for independent thought. Here are a few clues.

About 80% of all supermarkets in the country are owned by two companies between them. Both have faced lawsuits for abuse of market power. Both companies appear in the top ten.

A similar percentage of the banking business is conducted through the four major banks. Credit card interest rates have not come down at all since 2011 despite the RBA cash rate being cut several times, and home loan margins are growing. The four major banks appear in the top ten.

mariacostel wrote on Dec 19^th, 2015 at 6:45am:

But you normally HATE banks and miners and the likes of Wesfarmers. What happened?

You really need to stop telling lies. I have never said that.

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Bam

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Re: Top Companies That Pay No Tax
Reply #139 - Dec 19^th, 2015 at 9:21am

John Smith wrote on Dec 19^th, 2015 at 9:02am:

crocodile wrote on Dec 19^th, 2015 at 7:52am:

Seriously, the corporate tax rate of 30% is hurting and we are slowly losing to more competitive jurisdictions.

except that there isn't a single company that pays 25% or more and only about a half a dozen or so that pay over 20%.

I think you're misinterpreting the figures. I have no idea why the figures include tax divided by revenue when it should include tax divided by taxable profit. When you do this, you'll see that quite a few companies pay the full 30%, some 25% or so.

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Bam

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Re: Top Companies That Pay No Tax
Reply #140 - Dec 19^th, 2015 at 9:27am

cods wrote on Dec 19^th, 2015 at 8:54am:

I noticed Toys R Us.. on the no pay list...

I for one have no idea how this works...I mean it doesnt matter how little a pensioner earns the govt wants a bit of it...

so this kind of puzzles me...if they are using shelf companies or overseas companies to lower their profits
then I am happy to take my business elsewhere.

Will you do the same for this company?

NEWS AUSTRALIA HOLDINGS PTY LIMITED ... $2,847,566,418 revenue, no taxable income, no tax paid

Here is a company to consider instead:

FAIRFAX MEDIA LIMITED ... $1,655,158,324 revenue, $69,784,426 taxable income, $16,094,244 tax paid

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Bias_2012

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Re: Top Companies That Pay No Tax
Reply #141 - Dec 19^th, 2015 at 9:30am

Re: Top Companies That Pay No Tax
Reply #119 - Yesterday at 10:09pm Quote
Bias_2012 wrote Yesterday at 9:20pm:
crocodile wrote Yesterday at 8:55pm:
And you've fogged your glasses. Where did I say it was a mine or even describe any of its operations.

You and maria then, your answers were way off but you're forgiven because Kelly O'Dywer wouldn't have a clue either

There is nothing wrong with any of my answers. Even if the said corporation was not for profit it does not stop previous losses being brought forward. O'Dwyer is also ugly. Nice jugs though. - crocodile

No, there are no losses, Queensland Alumina Ltd doesn't work like that, it's a Cost-Toll operation. Each partner pays just enough to keep the plant going, 80% for Rio Tinto Alcan and 20% for Rusal. Technically and in reality, QAL is not subject to taxation at all, quite simply it's not a profit and loss company, only the partners are taxed if they sell alumina for a profit in Oz, but nearly all of it is shipped overseas where funny figures and different ownership takes place making it impossible for the ATO to tax profits from the eventual sale of that alumina

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Swagman

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Re: Top Companies That Pay No Tax
Reply #142 - Dec 19^th, 2015 at 10:22am

All these listed companies report publicly via their annual reports anyway.

Their finances are independently audited and subject to ATO scrutiny.

If they are illegitimately not paying tax they can be prosecuted by the ATO and ASIC NOW.

This is really just another example of the politics of envy. Clueless Laymenpersons that either don't pay tax themselves or cannot even complete their own tax returns are suddenly taxation gurus..... Roll Eyes

Here's a company on Perceptions_nows evil company hit list....AVJENNINGS

You can download its annual report here http://www.avjennings.com.au/getdoc/a461ef94-4ab8-40b8-a55a-9075d975cc6f/AnnualA...

This is an extract...

In 2013 this 'evil' Roll Eyes

Australian company paid no tax. In 2014 it paid $8.2 million in tax (around 3.2% of its 'gross' revenues)

It also spent $195 million dollars on building houses. This $195 million dollars provided lots of construction jobs to people that also pay income tax.

It spent $17 million dollars on it's own employees. who pay tax.

Now a company has to make a net profit to pay tax. It has an incentive to make profits because if it doesn't make profits shareholders will not risk their hard earned cash buying shares in the company.

Companies like economies and individuals have good and bad years.

In 2013 this company legitimately paid no tax but still provided $125 million dollars towards construction jobs and paid $16 million dollars to it's own employees who in turn pay tax

So even in bad years when they pay no company tax these companies still provide jobs and income taxes to pay for the ever increasing and bloated bureaucracy we call government.

......and the misinformed leftist ochlocratic masses continue to bite the hands that feeds them Cheesy

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mariacostel

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Re: Top Companies That Pay No Tax
Reply #143 - Dec 19^th, 2015 at 10:28am

Jovial Monk wrote on Dec 19^th, 2015 at 7:32am:

mariacostel wrote on Dec 19^th, 2015 at 6:48am:

Jovial Monk wrote on Dec 19^th, 2015 at 5:38am:

Andrew Leigh on tax transparency:

Quote:

One of Bradbury’s award-winning reforms was tax transparency – laws that required the tax office to report the tax paid by firms with total income above $100 million. The Liberals didn’t like the change, and voted against it at the time. After winning government, they set about trying to repeal it – first by warning of kidnap risk, and then by suggesting that it might embarrass some firms if the public knew how little tax they paid.

Farcically, the government said that it wouldn’t pass its own multinational tax package unless the parliament agreed to wind back secrecy. In effect, Scott Morrison was holding a gun to his own head, but the Greens Party fell for it. On the last day of parliament for 2015, the Greens Party agreed to amendments that kept two in three private companies out of the tax transparency net.

This week’s release of tax transparency data has shown the value of letting the sunlight in. The 1300 economic groups covered by the report had a combined taxable income of $170 billion, and contributed $40 billion in tax towards funding Australia’s schools, hospitals and roads.

Worryingly however, the tax office report also reveals that one in four of these companies paid no tax despite earning over $100 million in revenue. In the energy and resources sector 57 per cent of multinational firms paid no tax, while in the banking and financial sector the figure was 45 per cent. The companies concerned will no doubt want to explain these figures further to their customers and the Australian community.

Tax transparency matters because without it, we have no way of knowing if big companies are paying their fair share. There are plenty that do, and their contribution deserves acknowledgement.

http://www.andrewleigh.com/putting_the_spotlight_on_company_tax_dodgers_business...

Damn Greens, did a dirty deal that disgusted even some of its own Senators, to protect the Green’s wealthy, inner city base from having to disclose tax payments.

And once again here is another MP who lacks the ability to understand the difference between revenue and profit. The silliest thing about tax transparency is that the vast, vast majority cannot understand it and probably never will.

You are bloody joking, Longy! Leigh has high economic qualifications, left a Uni post to enter Parliament.

Can’t you get anything right?

If he cant work out that tax is levied on PROFIT and not revenue then his qualifications are worthless.

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mariacostel

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Re: Top Companies That Pay No Tax
Reply #144 - Dec 19^th, 2015 at 10:30am

Jovial Monk wrote on Dec 19^th, 2015 at 7:50am:

crocodile wrote on Dec 19^th, 2015 at 7:39am:

mariacostel wrote on Dec 19^th, 2015 at 6:48am:

Jovial Monk wrote on Dec 19^th, 2015 at 5:38am:

Andrew Leigh on tax transparency:

Quote:

One of Bradbury’s award-winning reforms was tax transparency – laws that required the tax office to report the tax paid by firms with total income above $100 million. The Liberals didn’t like the change, and voted against it at the time. After winning government, they set about trying to repeal it – first by warning of kidnap risk, and then by suggesting that it might embarrass some firms if the public knew how little tax they paid.

Farcically, the government said that it wouldn’t pass its own multinational tax package unless the parliament agreed to wind back secrecy. In effect, Scott Morrison was holding a gun to his own head, but the Greens Party fell for it. On the last day of parliament for 2015, the Greens Party agreed to amendments that kept two in three private companies out of the tax transparency net.

This week’s release of tax transparency data has shown the value of letting the sunlight in. The 1300 economic groups covered by the report had a combined taxable income of $170 billion, and contributed $40 billion in tax towards funding Australia’s schools, hospitals and roads.

Worryingly however, the tax office report also reveals that one in four of these companies paid no tax despite earning over $100 million in revenue. In the energy and resources sector 57 per cent of multinational firms paid no tax, while in the banking and financial sector the figure was 45 per cent. The companies concerned will no doubt want to explain these figures further to their customers and the Australian community.

Tax transparency matters because without it, we have no way of knowing if big companies are paying their fair share. There are plenty that do, and their contribution deserves acknowledgement.

http://www.andrewleigh.com/putting_the_spotlight_on_company_tax_dodgers_business...

Damn Greens, did a dirty deal that disgusted even some of its own Senators, to protect the Green’s wealthy, inner city base from having to disclose tax payments.

And once again here is another MP who lacks the ability to understand the difference between revenue and profit. The silliest thing about tax transparency is that the vast, vast majority cannot understand it and probably never will.

Not so sure about the lack of understanding on the MP's part. Andrew Leigh is at least one MP with some pretty stellar credentials on the economic front. He knows all right but is unfortunately caught up in the politics and has to toe the party line.

The list doesn't get around the fact that is simply impossible to determine the tax liability with some seriously important information missing. It is rather damaging by giving the casual reader incorrect conclusions.

When we have some years data I think we can start to draw conclusions. One year is probably not enough data, enough maybe to pick some areas to look into more closely.

I have certainly not said any company or industry is dodging tax or anything like that by dubious means. Carry forward of losses is standard practice, has to be as companies don’t get a tax refund like PAYE earners do.

But in a couple of years I would say some conclusions can start to be drawn.

Why is the banking and finance so high in companies paying little tax? Banks are making record profits.

The four major banks appear in the top ten taxpaying companies. Can you get ANYTHING right?

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mariacostel

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Re: Top Companies That Pay No Tax
Reply #145 - Dec 19^th, 2015 at 10:32am

Bam wrote on Dec 19^th, 2015 at 8:36am:

crocodile wrote on Dec 19^th, 2015 at 7:52am:

Just a side note. Andrew, on his blog has been kind enough to post more of his thoughts on corporate taxation. He wholeheartedly agrees that the majority of the burden of corporate tax falls on labour rather than the owners of capital by a margin of 2/3 to 1/3. His only concern is capturing the foreign dividends. Easily fixed through legislation.

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/1467-8462.12127/full

Seriously, the corporate tax rate of 30% is hurting and we are slowly losing to more competitive jurisdictions.

I am not at all convinced by the argument that it's somehow hurting. It's time for some perspective.

For the 1539 large companies listed:

The total amount of revenue was $1,629,023,186,711.
The total taxable income was $169,906,851,714. (10.43% of revenue).
The total tax paid was $39,862,816,070 (23.46% of taxable income and 2.45% of revenue).

How many PAYE taxpayers are paying no more than 2.45% of their gross income in tax? Not many. Most pay more than that.

It's not just taxes though. Spending needs to be considered. Some of these large corporations receive some form of government assistance. The mining industry alone receives more than $2 billion a year in rebates for diesel fuel. After the various forms of corporate welfare are considered, the corporations are not actually contributing much tax revenue at all.

If we want to consider cutting the corporate tax rate, it must be funded by corresponding deep cuts to corporate welfare so the Budget is not left worse off. The PAYE taxpayer already carries the largest tax burden in Federal taxation. They shouldn't be expected to carry more of it so companies can pay less.

What a stupid comparison. What PAYE taxpayer has to contribute a single dollar towards earning their income? NONE.

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mariacostel

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Re: Top Companies That Pay No Tax
Reply #146 - Dec 19^th, 2015 at 10:34am

Bam wrote on Dec 19^th, 2015 at 8:55am:

Jovial Monk wrote on Dec 19^th, 2015 at 7:50am:

When we have some years data I think we can start to draw conclusions. One year is probably not enough data, enough maybe to pick some areas to look into more closely.

I have certainly not said any company or industry is dodging tax or anything like that by dubious means. Carry forward of losses is standard practice, has to be as companies don’t get a tax refund like PAYE earners do.

But in a couple of years I would say some conclusions can start to be drawn.

An example here - Qantas is one of the companies listed as paying no tax. In that financial year the company declared a large loss and this is unusual. In most years the company makes a modest profit.

Where we may exert some scrutiny is the mechanism by which this loss came about. How much of it was a real loss and how much of it was a paper loss?

If we have this information available for several years, we will find that some of those companies paying no tax did so legitimately such as carrying forward prior-year losses. Others did not.

Jovial Monk wrote on Dec 19^th, 2015 at 7:50am:

Why is the banking and finance so high in companies paying little tax? Banks are making record profits.

Four of the top six companies that paid the most tax were the four major banks.

Are you the only person in Australia unaware that Qantas lost $2B last year alongside most of the worlds airlines? You don't even know what a 'paper loss' is. It is the kind of ignorant crap terminology that buffoons like you love to make.

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mariacostel

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Re: Top Companies That Pay No Tax
Reply #147 - Dec 19^th, 2015 at 10:35am

John Smith wrote on Dec 19^th, 2015 at 9:02am:

crocodile wrote on Dec 19^th, 2015 at 7:52am:

Seriously, the corporate tax rate of 30% is hurting and we are slowly losing to more competitive jurisdictions.

except that there isn't a single company that pays 25% or more and only about a half a dozen or so that pay over 20%.

they ALL pay 30% on their profit, you retard. EVERY SINGLE ONE.

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Jovial Monk

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Re: Top Companies That Pay No Tax
Reply #148 - Dec 19^th, 2015 at 10:35am

crocodile wrote on Dec 19^th, 2015 at 9:01am:

Dnarever wrote on Dec 19^th, 2015 at 8:32am:

crocodile wrote on Dec 19^th, 2015 at 7:52am:

Just a side note. Andrew, on his blog has been kind enough to post more of his thoughts on corporate taxation. He wholeheartedly agrees that the majority of the burden of corporate tax falls on labour rather than the owners of capital by a margin of 2/3 to 1/3. His only concern is capturing the foreign dividends. Easily fixed through legislation.

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/1467-8462.12127/full

Seriously, the corporate tax rate of 30% is hurting and we are slowly losing to more competitive jurisdictions.

How can it hurt when nobody pays it.

Corporate and payroll taxes account for 1/4 of the entire government budgets you nonce.

That is because income tax got cut too much by that lazy idiot Costello.

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mariacostel

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Re: Top Companies That Pay No Tax
Reply #149 - Dec 19^th, 2015 at 10:37am

Bam wrote on Dec 19^th, 2015 at 9:27am:

cods wrote on Dec 19^th, 2015 at 8:54am:

I noticed Toys R Us.. on the no pay list...

I for one have no idea how this works...I mean it doesnt matter how little a pensioner earns the govt wants a bit of it...

so this kind of puzzles me...if they are using shelf companies or overseas companies to lower their profits
then I am happy to take my business elsewhere.

Will you do the same for this company?

NEWS AUSTRALIA HOLDINGS PTY LIMITED ... $2,847,566,418 revenue, no taxable income, no tax paid

Here is a company to consider instead:

FAIRFAX MEDIA LIMITED ... $1,655,158,324 revenue, $69,784,426 taxable income, $16,094,244 tax paid

If you cannot quote PROFIT figures then everything else is worthless.

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