Australian Politics Forum - Liberals want penalty rates cut

Dnarever

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Re: Liberals want penalty rates cut
Reply #120 - Dec 24^th, 2015 at 7:59am

Swagman wrote on Dec 24^th, 2015 at 7:24am:

greggerypeccary wrote on Dec 23^rd, 2015 at 2:43pm:

"Penalty rates are not an impediment to economic growth.

"The retail and hospitality sectors grew at 3.6% and 3.2% respectively last year, significantly outperforming the rest of the economy.

"There is no justification for cutting employees’ wages."

http://www.actu.org.au/actu-media/media-releases/2015/turnbull-must-reject-produ...

What if it's to save their jobs? Huh

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-10-08/bluescope-workers-vote-yes/6836414

We will see in a year or two, I have seen this done a number of times and to this point it always has failed. The employees take the pay cut and 15 months later the company folds anyway, The problem was never employee wages - it never is so cutting pay rates never fixes the core issues.

Only difference is that when the company finally goes into receivership there is that little left that the employees who took pay cut now find that all their benefits and payments owed are also gone.

They typically find super payments not made, long service leave payment unfunded, redundancy money spent etc.

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Swagman Gold Member Offline Beware of cheap imitations...... Posts: 15095 Illawarra NSW Gender:	Re: Liberals want penalty rates cut Reply #121 - Dec 24^th, 2015 at 8:11am So they get 15 months more employment which is better than 15 months unemployment. Maybe they can get work up in QLD or in the N/W NSW where new coal mines are being established. Plenty of jobs will become available providing the Greenswine quit their ideological terrorism.
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Kytro

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Re: Liberals want penalty rates cut
Reply #122 - Dec 24^th, 2015 at 8:44am

mariacostel wrote on Dec 23^rd, 2015 at 4:04pm:

So changing Sunday rates to that of Saturday rates is a great evil?

It's not, but they shouldn't be reducing the pay overall. I tend to agree there isn't much difference between Saturday and Sunday, so the rates should probably be the same, but they should be a median point between Saturday and Sunday.

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Swagman

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Re: Liberals want penalty rates cut
Reply #123 - Dec 24^th, 2015 at 9:22am

Kytro wrote on Dec 24^th, 2015 at 8:44am:

mariacostel wrote on Dec 23^rd, 2015 at 4:04pm:

So changing Sunday rates to that of Saturday rates is a great evil?

It's not, but they shouldn't be reducing the pay overall. I tend to agree there isn't much difference between Saturday and Sunday, so the rates should probably be the same, but they should be a median point between Saturday and Sunday.

The day shouldn't matter one iota. It's the demand & supply for the labour.

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greggerypeccary

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Re: Liberals want penalty rates cut
Reply #124 - Dec 24^th, 2015 at 9:26am

Swagman wrote on Dec 24^th, 2015 at 9:22am:

Kytro wrote on Dec 24^th, 2015 at 8:44am:

mariacostel wrote on Dec 23^rd, 2015 at 4:04pm:

So changing Sunday rates to that of Saturday rates is a great evil?

It's not, but they shouldn't be reducing the pay overall. I tend to agree there isn't much difference between Saturday and Sunday, so the rates should probably be the same, but they should be a median point between Saturday and Sunday.

The day shouldn't matter one iota. It's the demand & supply for the labour.

You don't know much about penalty rates, do you? (of course you don't)

It's ALL about the day.

Penalty rates compensate people for working unsocial hours.

i.e. weekends, and evenings.

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Lisa Jones

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Re: Liberals want penalty rates cut
Reply #125 - Dec 24^th, 2015 at 9:31am

greggerypeccary wrote on Dec 24^th, 2015 at 9:26am:

Swagman wrote on Dec 24^th, 2015 at 9:22am:

Kytro wrote on Dec 24^th, 2015 at 8:44am:

mariacostel wrote on Dec 23^rd, 2015 at 4:04pm:

So changing Sunday rates to that of Saturday rates is a great evil?

It's not, but they shouldn't be reducing the pay overall. I tend to agree there isn't much difference between Saturday and Sunday, so the rates should probably be the same, but they should be a median point between Saturday and Sunday.

The day shouldn't matter one iota. It's the demand & supply for the labour.

You don't know much about penalty rates, do you? (of course you don't)

It's ALL about the day.

Penalty rates compensate people for working unsocial hours.

i.e. weekends, and evenings.

Penalty rates compensate AND incentivise this process.

Funnily enough, employees perform better under these conditions.

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greggerypeccary

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Re: Liberals want penalty rates cut
Reply #126 - Dec 24^th, 2015 at 9:36am

Lisa Jones wrote on Dec 24^th, 2015 at 9:31am:

greggerypeccary wrote on Dec 24^th, 2015 at 9:26am:

Swagman wrote on Dec 24^th, 2015 at 9:22am:

Kytro wrote on Dec 24^th, 2015 at 8:44am:

mariacostel wrote on Dec 23^rd, 2015 at 4:04pm:

So changing Sunday rates to that of Saturday rates is a great evil?

It's not, but they shouldn't be reducing the pay overall. I tend to agree there isn't much difference between Saturday and Sunday, so the rates should probably be the same, but they should be a median point between Saturday and Sunday.

The day shouldn't matter one iota. It's the demand & supply for the labour.

You don't know much about penalty rates, do you? (of course you don't)

It's ALL about the day.

Penalty rates compensate people for working unsocial hours.

i.e. weekends, and evenings.

Penalty rates compensate AND incentivise this process.

Funnily enough, employees perform better under these conditions.

Indeed.

If a worker's penalty rates are taken away from them, are they going to be:

a) more enthusiastic about work?

b) less enthusiastic about work?

c) the same?

d) happy?

e) apathetic?

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Kytro

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Re: Liberals want penalty rates cut
Reply #127 - Dec 24^th, 2015 at 9:38am

Swagman wrote on Dec 24^th, 2015 at 9:22am:

Kytro wrote on Dec 24^th, 2015 at 8:44am:

mariacostel wrote on Dec 23^rd, 2015 at 4:04pm:

So changing Sunday rates to that of Saturday rates is a great evil?

It's not, but they shouldn't be reducing the pay overall. I tend to agree there isn't much difference between Saturday and Sunday, so the rates should probably be the same, but they should be a median point between Saturday and Sunday.

The day shouldn't matter one iota. It's the demand & supply for the labour.

That's not how we do things in Australia, the vast majority of Australians don't want to either.

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Lisa Jones

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Re: Liberals want penalty rates cut
Reply #128 - Dec 24^th, 2015 at 9:42am

greggerypeccary wrote on Dec 24^th, 2015 at 9:36am:

Lisa Jones wrote on Dec 24^th, 2015 at 9:31am:

greggerypeccary wrote on Dec 24^th, 2015 at 9:26am:

Swagman wrote on Dec 24^th, 2015 at 9:22am:

Kytro wrote on Dec 24^th, 2015 at 8:44am:

mariacostel wrote on Dec 23^rd, 2015 at 4:04pm:

So changing Sunday rates to that of Saturday rates is a great evil?

It's not, but they shouldn't be reducing the pay overall. I tend to agree there isn't much difference between Saturday and Sunday, so the rates should probably be the same, but they should be a median point between Saturday and Sunday.

The day shouldn't matter one iota. It's the demand & supply for the labour.

You don't know much about penalty rates, do you? (of course you don't)

It's ALL about the day.

Penalty rates compensate people for working unsocial hours.

i.e. weekends, and evenings.

Penalty rates compensate AND incentivise this process.

Funnily enough, employees perform better under these conditions.

Indeed.

If a worker's penalty rates are taken away from them, are they going to be:

a) more enthusiastic about work?

b) less enthusiastic about work?

c) the same?

d) happy?

e) apathetic?

http://i.stack.imgur.com/eIfpq.png

Yep .

And I'm speaking from personal experience too.

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If I let myself be bought then I am no longer free.

HYPATIA - Greek philosopher, mathematician and astronomer (370 - 415)

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Its time

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Re: Liberals want penalty rates cut
Reply #129 - Dec 24^th, 2015 at 10:25am

[quote author=ms.cuteandcheeky link=1450820975/128#128 date=1450914126][quote author=greggerypeccary link=1450820975/126#126 date=1450913815][quote author=ms.cuteandcheeky link=1450820975/125#125 date=1450913475][quote author=greggerypeccary link=1450820975/124#124 date=1450913172][quote author=Timbo2530 link=1450820975/123#123 date=1450912952][quote author=Kytro link=1450820975/122#122 date=1450910655][quote author=mariacostel link=1450820975/71#71 date=1450850656]So changing Sunday rates to that of Saturday rates is a great evil?
[/quote]

It's not, but they shouldn't be reducing the pay overall. I tend to agree there isn't much difference between Saturday and Sunday, so the rates should probably be the same, but they should be a median point between Saturday and Sunday.[/quote]

The day shouldn't matter one iota. It's the demand & supply for the labour.
[/quote]

You don't know much about penalty rates, do you? (of course you don't)

It's ALL about the day.

Penalty rates compensate people for working unsocial hours.

i.e. weekends, and evenings.[/quote]

Penalty rates compensate AND incentivise this process.

Funnily enough, employees perform better under these conditions.

[/quote]

Indeed.

If a worker's penalty rates are taken away from them, are they going to be:

a) more enthusiastic about work?

b) less enthusiastic about work?

c) the same?

d) happy?

e) apathetic?

[img]http://i.stack.imgur.com/eIfpq.png[/img][/quote]

Yep .

And I'm speaking from personal experience too.[/quote]

They work sundays at the school tuck shop?

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mariacostel

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Re: Liberals want penalty rates cut
Reply #130 - Dec 24^th, 2015 at 10:26am

Dnarever wrote on Dec 24^th, 2015 at 7:51am:

mariacostel wrote on Dec 24^th, 2015 at 6:01am:

If you are being bullied by union members for not being in a union then you are effectively being bullied by a union. if you cannot see that then... I am not surprised.

Justified criticism from work mates falls way short of bullying and even though they are union members they have no official union standing. It is not the same thing and it is not what was originally stated.

These are just people who can see that they are spending money to get a result and that these others are sponging off them or probably more accurately bludging on them. They take all the benefits but refuse to contribute to the process.

These people are bludgers and it is understandable that their work mates question the integrity of their actions.

You just cant help yourself 'justified' as if the industrial conditions of today are entirely the product of todays unions. The real work was done many decades ago long before you were even born. Stop claiming ownership of something you had nothing to do with. Paying union dues does not give you that ownership.

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Kiron22

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Re: Liberals want penalty rates cut
Reply #131 - Dec 24^th, 2015 at 10:46am

I argue there is a difference between Saturday and Sunday.

Saturday night is the "major night" of the week for people, it's when everything is on, it's when most people go out, it's when big events happen.

Having to go to to bed early on Saturday to wake up and work early Sunday does cut into important leisure and social time.

Another point lost here I think is how rostering often is done in a way that doesn't even feel like you get days off. Often you will get a tuesday off and a friday off. When you get rostered days off separate from each other especially during the week it often feels like you have no time to really relax or do anything, you can't enjoy night life, all your friends in 9-5 jobs are working, it's hard to plan things out and you're rushing around to get things done in a single day.

I think penalty rates is also an incentive for employers to give employees weekends off, not just two random days.

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Kytro

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Re: Liberals want penalty rates cut
Reply #132 - Dec 24^th, 2015 at 10:49am

Kiron22 wrote on Dec 24^th, 2015 at 10:46am:

I argue there is a difference between Saturday and Sunday.

Saturday night is the "major night" of the week for people, it's when everything is on, it's when most people go out, it's when big events happen.

Having to go to to bed early on Saturday to wake up and work early Sunday does cut into important leisure and social time.

Another point lost here I think is how rostering often is done in a way that doesn't even feel like you get days off. Often you will get a tuesday off and a friday off. When you get rostered days off separate from each other especially during the week it often feels like you have no time to really relax or do anything, you can't enjoy night life, all your friends in 9-5 jobs are working, it's hard to plan things out and you're rushing around to get things done in a single day.

I think penalty rates is also an incentive for employers to give employees weekends off, not just two random days.

I don't think the difference is big enough to justify the difference in rates, but I do think the value of the weekend overall is still high. So merge the rates into a single rate more than Saturday and less than Sunday.

I'll bet the businesses won't oblige, because what they want is a reduction in costs, not a reflection of value.

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Its time

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Re: Liberals want penalty rates cut
Reply #133 - Dec 24^th, 2015 at 10:51am

mariacostel wrote on Dec 24^th, 2015 at 10:26am:

Dnarever wrote on Dec 24^th, 2015 at 7:51am:

mariacostel wrote on Dec 24^th, 2015 at 6:01am:

If you are being bullied by union members for not being in a union then you are effectively being bullied by a union. if you cannot see that then... I am not surprised.

Justified criticism from work mates falls way short of bullying and even though they are union members they have no official union standing. It is not the same thing and it is not what was originally stated.

These are just people who can see that they are spending money to get a result and that these others are sponging off them or probably more accurately bludging on them. They take all the benefits but refuse to contribute to the process.

These people are bludgers and it is understandable that their work mates question the integrity of their actions.

You just cant help yourself 'justified' as if the industrial conditions of today are entirely the product of todays unions. The real work was done many decades ago long before you were even born. Stop claiming ownership of something you had nothing to do with. Paying union dues does not give you that ownership.

Its about preserving the legacy left and its a continual fight everytime negotiations come around and the parasitic CCI looking for grey areas through wording in EBA's while people like yourself enjoy weekends , holidays and a myriad of other things that make your life better whilst you whine about our unions . Dont thank that imaginary fairy in the sky 2mrw when you're sitting with your family eating lunch , thank the unions.

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Dnarever

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Re: Liberals want penalty rates cut
Reply #134 - Dec 24^th, 2015 at 10:54am

Swagman wrote on Dec 24^th, 2015 at 8:11am:

So they get 15 months more employment which is better than 15 months unemployment.

Maybe they can get work up in QLD or in the N/W NSW where new coal mines are being established. Plenty of jobs will become available providing the Greenswine quit their ideological terrorism.

Then they lose entitlments more than the equivalent of the wages they had worked for.

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