Australian Politics Forum - Liberals want penalty rates cut

Swagman

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Re: Liberals want penalty rates cut
Reply #15 - Dec 23^rd, 2015 at 8:56am

John Smith wrote on Dec 23^rd, 2015 at 8:42am:

Swag, you live in an ideological world .... ideology doesn't work in the real world.

Nothing is market driven. Even the stuff you think is market driven is been controlled by the puppet masters. Removing penalty rates only gives the puppet masters more to play with.

Life is market driven Smithy unless your freedom to choose is taken away from you I guess. Politics is market driven. Justabout everything is market driven.

It's not about "removing" penalty rates. It's about paying them where they are warranted (where they are demanded). It's about acknowledging that all workplaces (even those in the same industry) are different. They operate in different localities each with their own little domestic market idiosyncrasies yet because of stupid outdated industrial relations regulations they are all tarred with the same IR brush.

Fixing IR into unmovable blocks means that business cannot move with the market punches and so lots get knocked out of the market because they can't compete and that is the root cause of unemployment and the underlying cause of the decline of Australian manufacturing since the 1960s.

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stunspore

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Re: Liberals want penalty rates cut
Reply #16 - Dec 23^rd, 2015 at 9:08am

Rents could be affected by government policy, just as wages are. In this case, how about stamp duties (in case of property purchases) and negative gearing?

I have studied economics. I wonder, what you consider to be "full employment"? You do understand that unemployment is always going to be here at some sort of %. At full employment that is a bad as that means that employers can't find workers - leading on to wage competition, inflation etc etc according to all economic textbooks.

Penalty rates are there as part of quality of life costs. You're right in that weekends probably can be rationalised to probably "the same as any other day". Most leisurely activities can be of similar nature.

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Dnarever Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 59099 Here Gender:	Re: Liberals want penalty rates cut Reply #17 - Dec 23^rd, 2015 at 9:30am People must be sick of politicians being poorly informed and relying on untrue dishonest arguments.
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Dnarever Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 59099 Here Gender:	Re: Liberals want penalty rates cut Reply #18 - Dec 23^rd, 2015 at 9:33am Lord Herbert wrote on Dec 23^rd, 2015 at 7:54am: Quote: If Penalty rates are important to you, then it looks like you cant vote liberal. I NEVER vote for the major parties ... http://i473.photobucket.com/albums/rr96/Herbert_04/nazi%20smiley.jpg That effectively means that you never oppose the worst policy.
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Swagman Gold Member Offline Beware of cheap imitations...... Posts: 15095 Illawarra NSW Gender:	Re: Liberals want penalty rates cut Reply #19 - Dec 23^rd, 2015 at 9:47am Dnarever wrote on Dec 23^rd, 2015 at 9:30am: People must be sick of politicians being poorly informed and relying on untrue dishonest arguments. Yes I am sick of Labor & Green politicians being poorly informed and making untrue and irrational arguments.
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stunspore

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Re: Liberals want penalty rates cut
Reply #20 - Dec 23^rd, 2015 at 9:58am

Though your statement doesn't indicate it, I assume you would also hate lib politicians doing the same? Or are you have double standards/hypocrite?

Any particular reason why you choose lab/green in your statement? A personal bias of some sort?

In any case, RBA and other independent authorities do state that current IR is not as rigid and is actually quite responsive to labour demands.

It's a pity that non-tangible assets aren't recognised, such as weekend socialising, church, etc. I would accept a 24/7 economy or at least a 7 day economy if the distribution of working hours is properly distributed over the 7 days instead of clustering over 5 days.

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greggerypeccary Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 139109 Gender:	Re: Liberals want penalty rates cut Reply #21 - Dec 23^rd, 2015 at 10:00am Swagman wrote on Dec 23^rd, 2015 at 8:56am: It's not about "removing" penalty rates. It's about paying them where they are warranted ... And they are warranted on Sundays.
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Dnarever

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Re: Liberals want penalty rates cut
Reply #22 - Dec 23^rd, 2015 at 10:01am

Swagman wrote on Dec 23^rd, 2015 at 9:47am:

Dnarever wrote on Dec 23^rd, 2015 at 9:30am:

People must be sick of politicians being poorly informed and relying on untrue dishonest arguments.

Yes I am sick of Labor & Green politicians being poorly informed and making untrue and irrational arguments.

Yet you are incapable of pointing it out and supporting your position.

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greggerypeccary

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Re: Liberals want penalty rates cut
Reply #23 - Dec 23^rd, 2015 at 10:16am

Swagman wrote on Dec 23^rd, 2015 at 8:39am:

If you can't get individuals to work at un-standard hours then offer more pay to attract them ...

A lovely theory.

However, it doesn't work like that in the real world.

When employers can't get employees to work unsocial hours, they bully them, change their rosters, reduce their hours, and/or sack them.

That's the way it is, I'm afraid.

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Kytro

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Re: Liberals want penalty rates cut
Reply #24 - Dec 23^rd, 2015 at 10:27am

Swagman wrote on Dec 23^rd, 2015 at 8:56am:

It's not about "removing" penalty rates. It's about paying them where they are warranted (where they are demanded). It's about acknowledging that all workplaces (even those in the same industry) are different. They operate in different localities each with their own little domestic market idiosyncrasies yet because of stupid outdated industrial relations regulations they are all tarred with the same IR brush.

Which would be all be well and good if employers didn't have so much power. Due to an oversupply of labour, which will only continue to grow as technology improves employers for unskilled labour could offer very low pay rates if they were not regulated. The regulations exists as part of society saying there are a minimum conditions including pay that we as a society will accept.

Swagman wrote on Dec 23^rd, 2015 at 8:56am:

Fixing IR into unmovable blocks means that business cannot move with the market punches and so lots get knocked out of the market because they can't compete and that is the root cause of unemployment and the underlying cause of the decline of Australian manufacturing since the 1960s.

There is little point in reducing unemployment if it leads to lower standards of living for more people. Australian manufacturing has been declining, but the service industry continues to grow. To be competitive in manufacturing generally requires having much lower labour costs, and hence lower standards of living for workers.

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Kiron22

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Re: Liberals want penalty rates cut
Reply #25 - Dec 23^rd, 2015 at 10:52am

greggerypeccary wrote on Dec 23^rd, 2015 at 10:16am:

Swagman wrote on Dec 23^rd, 2015 at 8:39am:

If you can't get individuals to work at un-standard hours then offer more pay to attract them ...

A lovely theory.

However, it doesn't work like that in the real world.

When employers can't get employees to work unsocial hours, they bully them, change their rosters, reduce their hours, and/or sack them.

That's the way it is, I'm afraid.

Yeah, I really don't get why conservatives on this forum keep telling us people who have actually experienced it how it actually works in their delusional world.

If you're a retail worker and you turn down weekends, enjoy suddenly your roster going blank and suddenly another worker employed taking your hours.

I've seen this happen time and time again in retail, hell I had it happen to me, when a friend came back from finishing his tour in Afghanistan I wanted to take a few days off and the manager instant started doing that slimy "we're disappointed in you blah blah blah" and my rostered on hours started dropping, completely ignoring I often worked months on end in a row without a single day off, I always covered for others and did hundreds of hours of unpaid overtime.

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BlueBeard Senior Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 387 Gender:	Re: Liberals want penalty rates cut Reply #26 - Dec 23^rd, 2015 at 11:22am the ABC http://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-12-23/zed-seselja-backs-cutting-sunday-penalty-r...
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BlueBeard

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Re: Liberals want penalty rates cut
Reply #27 - Dec 23^rd, 2015 at 11:24am

greggerypeccary wrote on Dec 23^rd, 2015 at 10:16am:

Swagman wrote on Dec 23^rd, 2015 at 8:39am:

If you can't get individuals to work at un-standard hours then offer more pay to attract them ...

A lovely theory.

However, it doesn't work like that in the real world.

When employers can't get employees to work unsocial hours, they bully them, change their rosters, reduce their hours, and/or sack them.

That's the way it is, I'm afraid.

that's the way it isn't I'm afraid

you just made that up lie for lie

I doubt you even have a job by the looks of you all over this forum 24/7

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greggerypeccary

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Re: Liberals want penalty rates cut
Reply #28 - Dec 23^rd, 2015 at 11:25am

BlueBeard wrote on Dec 23^rd, 2015 at 11:22am:

the ABC

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-12-23/zed-seselja-backs-cutting-sunday-penalty-r...

Roll Eyes

"It will create jobs, it will give jobs to people who don't have jobs, or it will give more hours to those who are seeking it in an industry where we often see businesses not even bothering to open on a Sunday."

No, it will not.

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greggerypeccary

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Re: Liberals want penalty rates cut
Reply #29 - Dec 23^rd, 2015 at 11:28am

Kiron22 wrote on Dec 23^rd, 2015 at 10:52am:

If you're a retail worker and you turn down weekends, enjoy suddenly your roster going blank and suddenly another worker employed taking your hours.

Yep, that's exactly what happens.

Or, they'll sack you.

I've seen so many unfair dismissal claims where this is the case.

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