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Business Groups And The Unfair Dismissal Laws (Read 3785 times)
Sir Crook
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Business Groups And The Unfair Dismissal Laws
Dec 23rd, 2015 at 10:38am
 
Productivity Commission should have gone further in attempt to reform unfair dismissal laws: business groups

Date
    December 22, 2015
    Canberra Times

Business groups say the Productivity Commission attempts to reform Australia's unfair dismissal system are not good enough, because the system has swung too far in favour of workers.

They say small businesses with fewer than 20 employees should not have to spend valuable time and money fighting unfair dismissal claims.   Huh

The long-awaited final report on Australia's workplace relations system was released on Monday, by the Productivity Commission.

It suggested reforms to the unfair dismissal system to prevent "spurious cases" from going to settlement.

The report referred a number of cases where employees had clearly underperformed or behaved inappropriately, but had still been awarded compensation.

In one case, Sheng He v Peacock Brothers & Wilson Lac v Peacock Brothers [2013], two employees were dismissed after punching one another in the head in an argument, but they were paid compensation after management failed, when sacking them, to follow procedural fairness – such as seeking corroboration from witnesses and offering translation services.

It said because existing arrangements in the unfair dismissal system mean an employee who should be dismissed may still receive compensation due to faults in the termination process, it "opens the door to possible hunting by dismissed employees (or their agents) for technical reasons for compensation, and may provide leverage for 'go away' money."

To discourage disingenuous claims, the Commission has recommended charging a non-refundable fee to lodge an unfair dismissal claim, and charging a second non-refundable fee for any case that makes it to arbitration.

It recommends making it impossible for procedural errors by an employer to result in reinstatement or compensation for a former employee.

It says the federal government should give the Fair Work Commission clearer powers to deal with unfair dismissal applications before conducting a conference or hearing, and that there ought to be a two-stage test introduced for considering whether a person has been unfairly dismissed.

Overall, the report found unfair dismissal laws are not playing a "major role" in hiring and firing decisions in Australia – so they are working reasonably well – but incremental changes should make the system better.

The Victorian Chamber of Commerce and Industry has welcomed some of the recommendations for putting an emphasis on "substance rather than process" in unfair dismissal claims.

It has also welcomed the return of "upfront assessments" of unfair dismissal claims which will limit the time and effort spent by employers in defending unmeritorious claims.

But it complains the Commission has missed an opportunity to restrict access further to unfair dismissal claims.

"Despite urging the PC to remove the burden of unfair dismissal for businesses with under 20 employees, this recommendation was not part of the final report, meaning small business will continue to spend time and money defending claims rather than running their businesses," Mark Stone, VCCI chief executive, said.

The Australian Chamber of Commerce and Industry says it is disappointing small businesses will still have to contend with unfair dismissal laws.

But Ged Kearney, Australian Council of Trade Unions president, says the Commission's recommendations for reform are not based on "any real issue" with unfair dismissal laws.   

"By making it more expensive, and changing the procedural processes to make it more difficult, simply means that more people will be unfairly dismissed without any recourse," Ms Kearney told Fairfax Media.   Sad

"We'll certainly be letting people know that this is the view of the Productivity Commission is, and we'd like to know what the government's position is."
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Sir Crook
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Re: Business Groups And The Unfair Dismissal Laws
Reply #1 - Dec 23rd, 2015 at 10:41am
 
Were you the one that said, you didnt want to work weekends without penalty rates ???.   Sad
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greggerypeccary
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Re: Business Groups And The Unfair Dismissal Laws
Reply #2 - Dec 23rd, 2015 at 10:41am
 
Quote:
In one case, Sheng He v Peacock Brothers & Wilson Lac v Peacock Brothers [2013], two employees were dismissed after punching one another in the head in an argument, but they were paid compensation after management failed, when sacking them, to follow procedural fairness – such as seeking corroboration from witnesses and offering translation services.


Good call.

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mariacostel
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Re: Business Groups And The Unfair Dismissal Laws
Reply #3 - Dec 23rd, 2015 at 3:10pm
 
greggerypeccary wrote on Dec 23rd, 2015 at 10:41am:
Quote:
In one case, Sheng He v Peacock Brothers & Wilson Lac v Peacock Brothers [2013], two employees were dismissed after punching one another in the head in an argument, but they were paid compensation after management failed, when sacking them, to follow procedural fairness – such as seeking corroboration from witnesses and offering translation services.


Good call.



How is that a good call? They were dismissed with cause!
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Dsmithy70
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Re: Business Groups And The Unfair Dismissal Laws
Reply #4 - Dec 23rd, 2015 at 3:28pm
 
mariacostel wrote on Dec 23rd, 2015 at 3:10pm:
greggerypeccary wrote on Dec 23rd, 2015 at 10:41am:
Quote:
In one case, Sheng He v Peacock Brothers & Wilson Lac v Peacock Brothers [2013], two employees were dismissed after punching one another in the head in an argument, but they were paid compensation after management failed, when sacking them, to follow procedural fairness – such as seeking corroboration from witnesses and offering translation services.


Good call.



How is that a good call? They were dismissed with cause!


Yep got to agree.

The above is an example why the IPA & others actually are taken seriously.

Two employee's committed a crime(assault) whilst at work.

They were sacked & should have been

End of story.
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greggerypeccary
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Re: Business Groups And The Unfair Dismissal Laws
Reply #5 - Dec 23rd, 2015 at 3:34pm
 
mariacostel wrote on Dec 23rd, 2015 at 3:10pm:
greggerypeccary wrote on Dec 23rd, 2015 at 10:41am:
Quote:
In one case, Sheng He v Peacock Brothers & Wilson Lac v Peacock Brothers [2013], two employees were dismissed after punching one another in the head in an argument, but they were paid compensation after management failed, when sacking them, to follow procedural fairness – such as seeking corroboration from witnesses and offering translation services.


Good call.



How is that a good call? They were dismissed with cause!


Yes, and that was a good call.

And, compensating them after management failed, when sacking them, to follow procedural fairness was also a good call.

They deserved to be sacked, and management deserved to be penalised for not doing it properly.

A good call.

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stunspore
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Re: Business Groups And The Unfair Dismissal Laws
Reply #6 - Dec 23rd, 2015 at 3:37pm
 
Without knowing the full story there was only one fact from the statements provided so far.  They did not follow proper procedures of sacking.
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Re: Business Groups And The Unfair Dismissal Laws
Reply #7 - Dec 23rd, 2015 at 3:54pm
 
stunspore wrote on Dec 23rd, 2015 at 3:37pm:
Without knowing the full story there was only one fact from the statements provided so far.  They did not follow proper procedures of sacking.


True but going on the above they deserved it.

greggerypeccary wrote on Dec 23rd, 2015 at 3:34pm:
and management deserved to be penalised for not doing it properly.


And what if the procedure required 3 warnings & 2 counselling sessions?
These guys used physical violence.

All for procedure when it's a personality clash, failure to meet expectations etc etc.

But when it's violence it should just be there's the door with no entitlements paid

mariacostel wrote on Dec 23rd, 2015 at 3:10pm:
– such as seeking corroboration from witnesses and offering translation services.


What if it was the manager who saw it?
Why does he require witnesses?
A punch in head has no language & frankly if they don't know violence is not accepted in the workplace then it should be immgration not anyone else involved.
They are probably illegally working & more than likely being exploited.

Hang management for that.
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Re: Business Groups And The Unfair Dismissal Laws
Reply #8 - Dec 23rd, 2015 at 3:57pm
 
I'd agree it's a good call. They weren't reinstated and the two weeks wages each of the men received is fair compensation for the time it would have taken to follow all correct procedure.
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Re: Business Groups And The Unfair Dismissal Laws
Reply #9 - Dec 23rd, 2015 at 4:04pm
 
Dsmithy70 wrote on Dec 23rd, 2015 at 3:54pm:
And what if the procedure required 3 warnings & 2 counselling sessions?


It wouldn't.

The 'three warnings' myth is just that -  a myth (there is absolutely no legal requirement for employers to give three warnings).

In this instance the employer failed to seek corroboration from witnesses and failed to offer translation services.

I'm not excusing the employees' behaviour in any way, however, proper procedures need to be adhered to when terminating employment (even if it's a summary dismissal).

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Re: Business Groups And The Unfair Dismissal Laws
Reply #10 - Dec 23rd, 2015 at 4:19pm
 
The worst part about it was that it has been far worse in the past. In the Keating era, they would have been rehired and compensation paid plus 'training' for the HR manager. Previous dismissal laws made it extremely difficult to sack anyone at all, including if they had stolen from you or been abusive to other staff. In more than one case, it was only the alternative of police arrest and court appearance that made it possible for someone to leave 'voluntarily' - basically blackmail.

It is better now, but it is still draconian.
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Re: Business Groups And The Unfair Dismissal Laws
Reply #11 - Dec 23rd, 2015 at 4:21pm
 
Quote:
Productivity Commission should have gone further in attempt to reform unfair dismissal laws: business groups

Date
    December 22, 2015
    Canberra Times

Business groups say the Productivity Commission attempts to reform Australia's unfair dismissal system are not good enough, because the system has swung too far in favour of workers.



These people are unbelievable - unfair dismissal laws could not possibly be more in favour of the employer.
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Re: Business Groups And The Unfair Dismissal Laws
Reply #12 - Dec 23rd, 2015 at 4:26pm
 
mariacostel wrote on Dec 23rd, 2015 at 4:19pm:
The worst part about it was that it has been far worse in the past. In the Keating era, they would have been rehired and compensation paid plus 'training' for the HR manager. Previous dismissal laws made it extremely difficult to sack anyone at all, including if they had stolen from you or been abusive to other staff. In more than one case, it was only the alternative of police arrest and court appearance that made it possible for someone to leave 'voluntarily' - basically blackmail.

It is better now, but it is still draconian.


Less than 1% of people are reinstated after they make a claim for unfair dismissal.

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Re: Business Groups And The Unfair Dismissal Laws
Reply #13 - Dec 23rd, 2015 at 4:29pm
 
mariacostel wrote on Dec 23rd, 2015 at 3:10pm:
greggerypeccary wrote on Dec 23rd, 2015 at 10:41am:
Quote:
In one case, Sheng He v Peacock Brothers & Wilson Lac v Peacock Brothers [2013], two employees were dismissed after punching one another in the head in an argument, but they were paid compensation after management failed, when sacking them, to follow procedural fairness – such as seeking corroboration from witnesses and offering translation services.


Good call.



How is that a good call? They were dismissed with cause!


How can you say there was cause when they forgot to prove that anything happened at all.

The company had 97 employees and the person responsible for sacking had no HR training or experience. One of the people involved claimed to have not contributed to the fight and asked for other witnesses to be spoken to.

Guess what the unfair result was for this unfair dismissal ?

The employees won the case and were granted a further 2 weeks pay.

This exposes the weakness in favour of the employer in unfair dismissal cases - it is worth while for employers to unfairly unreasonable or illegally dismiss employees because the tiny slap on the wrist they get is cheaper than following the process correctly.
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Re: Business Groups And The Unfair Dismissal Laws
Reply #14 - Dec 23rd, 2015 at 5:16pm
 
greggerypeccary wrote on Dec 23rd, 2015 at 4:26pm:
mariacostel wrote on Dec 23rd, 2015 at 4:19pm:
The worst part about it was that it has been far worse in the past. In the Keating era, they would have been rehired and compensation paid plus 'training' for the HR manager. Previous dismissal laws made it extremely difficult to sack anyone at all, including if they had stolen from you or been abusive to other staff. In more than one case, it was only the alternative of police arrest and court appearance that made it possible for someone to leave 'voluntarily' - basically blackmail.

It is better now, but it is still draconian.


Less than 1% of people are reinstated after they make a claim for unfair dismissal.



Source?
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