Australian Politics Forum - Business Groups And The Unfair Dismissal Laws

mariacostel

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Re: Business Groups And The Unfair Dismissal Laws
Reply #15 - Dec 23^rd, 2015 at 5:18pm

Dnarever wrote on Dec 23^rd, 2015 at 4:29pm:

mariacostel wrote on Dec 23^rd, 2015 at 3:10pm:

greggerypeccary wrote on Dec 23^rd, 2015 at 10:41am:

Quote:

In one case, Sheng He v Peacock Brothers & Wilson Lac v Peacock Brothers [2013], two employees were dismissed after punching one another in the head in an argument, but they were paid compensation after management failed, when sacking them, to follow procedural fairness – such as seeking corroboration from witnesses and offering translation services.

Good call.

How is that a good call? They were dismissed with cause!

How can you say there was cause when they forgot to prove that anything happened at all.

The company had 97 employees and the person responsible for sacking had no HR training or experience. One of the people involved claimed to have not contributed to the fight and asked for other witnesses to be spoken to.

Guess what the unfair result was for this unfair dismissal ?

The employees won the case and were granted a further 2 weeks pay.

This exposes the weakness in favour of the employer in unfair dismissal cases - it is worth while for employers to unfairly unreasonable or illegally dismiss employees because the tiny slap on the wrist they get is cheaper than following the process correctly.

PLEASE PLEASE start your own business and hire staff. That superior attitude of yours will disappear really quickly when you have a lazy, rude and disruptive employee and you find you cannot sack him.

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Dnarever

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Re: Business Groups And The Unfair Dismissal Laws
Reply #16 - Dec 23^rd, 2015 at 5:19pm

mariacostel wrote on Dec 23^rd, 2015 at 5:18pm:

Dnarever wrote on Dec 23^rd, 2015 at 4:29pm:

mariacostel wrote on Dec 23^rd, 2015 at 3:10pm:

greggerypeccary wrote on Dec 23^rd, 2015 at 10:41am:

Quote:

In one case, Sheng He v Peacock Brothers & Wilson Lac v Peacock Brothers [2013], two employees were dismissed after punching one another in the head in an argument, but they were paid compensation after management failed, when sacking them, to follow procedural fairness – such as seeking corroboration from witnesses and offering translation services.

Good call.

How is that a good call? They were dismissed with cause!

How can you say there was cause when they forgot to prove that anything happened at all.

The company had 97 employees and the person responsible for sacking had no HR training or experience. One of the people involved claimed to have not contributed to the fight and asked for other witnesses to be spoken to.

Guess what the unfair result was for this unfair dismissal ?

The employees won the case and were granted a further 2 weeks pay.

This exposes the weakness in favour of the employer in unfair dismissal cases - it is worth while for employers to unfairly unreasonable or illegally dismiss employees because the tiny slap on the wrist they get is cheaper than following the process correctly.

PLEASE PLEASE start your own business and hire staff. That superior attitude of yours will disappear really quickly when you have a lazy, rude and disruptive employee and you find you cannot sack him.

PLEASE PLEASE start your own business and hire staff

Been there done that - didn't like it much.

Today it is relatively easy to move on someone who does not work out but I have found that it is easier to make sure you are employing good people in the first place.

In general I have had huge success with the people who worked for me.

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greggerypeccary

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Re: Business Groups And The Unfair Dismissal Laws
Reply #17 - Dec 23^rd, 2015 at 5:50pm

mariacostel wrote on Dec 23^rd, 2015 at 5:16pm:

greggerypeccary wrote on Dec 23^rd, 2015 at 4:26pm:

mariacostel wrote on Dec 23^rd, 2015 at 4:19pm:

The worst part about it was that it has been far worse in the past. In the Keating era, they would have been rehired and compensation paid plus 'training' for the HR manager. Previous dismissal laws made it extremely difficult to sack anyone at all, including if they had stolen from you or been abusive to other staff. In more than one case, it was only the alternative of police arrest and court appearance that made it possible for someone to leave 'voluntarily' - basically blackmail.

It is better now, but it is still draconian.

Less than 1% of people are reinstated after they make a claim for unfair dismissal.

Source?

Straight from the horses' mouths - me, and the FWC:

https://www.fwc.gov.au/resolving-issues-disputes-and-dismissals/dismissal-termin...

After conciliation, less than 1%.

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Dnarever

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Re: Business Groups And The Unfair Dismissal Laws
Reply #18 - Dec 23^rd, 2015 at 5:56pm

If an employee wins an unfair dismissal case they can typically expect compensation of between 6 to 8 weeks pay.

Nothing much is taken into consideration, it is almost cheaper for the employer to deliberately unfairly dismiss employees as it is probably cheaper than to do it properly. It isn't worth the employees time and effort to complain to fair work.

If you talk to a lawyer they will advise you that you will probably win but not cover the legal expenses. You have to take them on yourself.

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greggerypeccary

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Re: Business Groups And The Unfair Dismissal Laws
Reply #19 - Dec 23^rd, 2015 at 6:00pm

Dnarever wrote on Dec 23^rd, 2015 at 5:56pm:

If an employee wins an unfair dismissal case they can typically expect compensation of between 6 to 8 weeks pay.

That's roughly correct.

The maximum compensation is 26 week's pay, however, it is very rare for that amount to be awarded (I've only seen it twice).

The usual outcome is somewhere between 2 and 8 week's pay, a statement of service, and records changed to show the dismissal as a resignation.

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Grappler Deep State Feller

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Re: Business Groups And The Unfair Dismissal Laws
Reply #20 - Dec 23^rd, 2015 at 7:12pm

Dnarever wrote on Dec 23^rd, 2015 at 5:56pm:

If an employee wins an unfair dismissal case they can typically expect compensation of between 6 to 8 weeks pay.

Nothing much is taken into consideration, it is almost cheaper for the employer to deliberately unfairly dismiss employees as it is probably cheaper than to do it properly. It isn't worth the employees time and effort to complain to fair work.

If you talk to a lawyer they will advise you that you will probably win but not cover the legal expenses. You have to take them on yourself.

I know all about it - Union delegate (unpaid) harassed and set upon by management -I was making $2000 a week through hard work, loyalty and integrity (read my books for the way other people did things), and went through trauma and 'requirement' from a private lawyer of thousands of dollars to launch a case... went with the Union, for whom I was an unpaid delegate... and got $7k - 3.5 week's work.

Not even enough to cover my credit card - my lady friend at the time saw me break down and cry....

Now .. ask me again why I am the enemy of all those who exploit and abuse? I'll line them up on the wall for the firing squad...... if I don't get to them first....

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“Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.”
― John Adams

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mariacostel

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Re: Business Groups And The Unfair Dismissal Laws
Reply #21 - Dec 24^th, 2015 at 6:03am

Dnarever wrote on Dec 23^rd, 2015 at 5:19pm:

mariacostel wrote on Dec 23^rd, 2015 at 5:18pm:

Dnarever wrote on Dec 23^rd, 2015 at 4:29pm:

mariacostel wrote on Dec 23^rd, 2015 at 3:10pm:

greggerypeccary wrote on Dec 23^rd, 2015 at 10:41am:

Quote:

In one case, Sheng He v Peacock Brothers & Wilson Lac v Peacock Brothers [2013], two employees were dismissed after punching one another in the head in an argument, but they were paid compensation after management failed, when sacking them, to follow procedural fairness – such as seeking corroboration from witnesses and offering translation services.

Good call.

How is that a good call? They were dismissed with cause!

How can you say there was cause when they forgot to prove that anything happened at all.

The company had 97 employees and the person responsible for sacking had no HR training or experience. One of the people involved claimed to have not contributed to the fight and asked for other witnesses to be spoken to.

Guess what the unfair result was for this unfair dismissal ?

The employees won the case and were granted a further 2 weeks pay.

This exposes the weakness in favour of the employer in unfair dismissal cases - it is worth while for employers to unfairly unreasonable or illegally dismiss employees because the tiny slap on the wrist they get is cheaper than following the process correctly.

PLEASE PLEASE start your own business and hire staff. That superior attitude of yours will disappear really quickly when you have a lazy, rude and disruptive employee and you find you cannot sack him.

PLEASE PLEASE start your own business and hire staff

Been there done that - didn't like it much.

Today it is relatively easy to move on someone who does not work out but I have found that it is easier to make sure you are employing good people in the first place.

In general I have had huge success with the people who worked for me.

So in summary, you tried your own business, failed and went back to being an employee. Hardly support for any discussion on the difficulties of hiring staff.

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miketrees

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Re: Business Groups And The Unfair Dismissal Laws
Reply #22 - Dec 24^th, 2015 at 7:14am

I have been through this, any employer can get rid of any worker if they want to.

The ones that don't manage it properly get stung by FW.

Every business should have minuted meetings with signed attendance sheets.
Everybody knows what is expected and there is documented evidence.

Sometimes you actually avoid a lot of the problems as well.

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Armchair_Politician

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Re: Business Groups And The Unfair Dismissal Laws
Reply #23 - Dec 24^th, 2015 at 7:24am

Alinta wrote on Dec 23^rd, 2015 at 3:57pm:

I'd agree it's a good call. They weren't reinstated and the two weeks wages each of the men received is fair compensation for the time it would have taken to follow all correct procedure.

So you think they should be compensated for having done the wrong thing?

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Dnarever

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Re: Business Groups And The Unfair Dismissal Laws
Reply #24 - Dec 24^th, 2015 at 7:41am

mariacostel wrote on Dec 24^th, 2015 at 6:03am:

Dnarever wrote on Dec 23^rd, 2015 at 5:19pm:

Maria.
PLEASE PLEASE start your own business and hire staff

Been there done that - didn't like it much.

Today it is relatively easy to move on someone who does not work out but I have found that it is easier to make sure you are employing good people in the first place.

In general I have had huge success with the people who worked for me.

So in summary, you tried your own business, failed and went back to being an employee. Hardly support for any discussion on the difficulties of hiring staff.

Summary incorrect. As I said I didn't like it.

The business itself is still running I on sold it for a reasonable profit. I went back to a corporate mid management position at the time and went on from there. The business was lucky enough to always cover all wages and produce a net profit - it paid tax every year. I didn't like the stress the hours or the time forced to be spent away from the core work, I knew that I would make significantly more in the corporate world with less negatives.

I have been thinking of another go at small business this would be the third time for myself, once unplanned virtually by accident and also once managing a SB for someone else (hospitality industry) who needed time away.

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aquascoot

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Re: Business Groups And The Unfair Dismissal Laws
Reply #25 - Dec 24^th, 2015 at 7:46am

an employee is something that a business uses its own money to buy, in the same way as you buy a product from a store.

if the product is faulty, you are entitled to take it back for a full refund.

if you purchase an employee and it is faulty, you should be able to take it back to the manufacturer for a full refund.

this seems fair.

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Sir Crook Ex Member	Re: Business Groups And The Unfair Dismissal Laws Reply #26 - Dec 24^th, 2015 at 7:52am What about if an employee is Unfairly let go?.
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aquascoot

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Re: Business Groups And The Unfair Dismissal Laws
Reply #27 - Dec 24^th, 2015 at 7:59am

Quote:

What about if an employee is Unfairly let go?. Sad

If you are a business and you are using your capital to purchase something (in this case labor) then it is really up to you if you wish to continue with the purchasing.

If a home owner pays for their lawn to be mowed , they are purchasing labor with their money.
if their new years resolution is to get fit and do the mowing and they cease this purchasing, have they "unfairly dismissed ' the lawn mower man.

i think they are fully entitled (in a market economy) to use their money how they wish.

in the same way, if the lawnmower man is truly excellent, adds value by doing the hedges as well, he is fully entitled to invoice for more money and HE CAN DISMISS THEM as a client if he so wishes.

this is how "free" enterprise works

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Sir Crook Ex Member	Re: Business Groups And The Unfair Dismissal Laws Reply #28 - Dec 24^th, 2015 at 8:06am They wonder why people join unions. Go figure.
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Dnarever

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Re: Business Groups And The Unfair Dismissal Laws
Reply #29 - Dec 24^th, 2015 at 8:07am

aquascoot wrote on Dec 24^th, 2015 at 7:59am:

Quote:

What about if an employee is Unfairly let go?. Sad

If you are a business and you are using your capital to purchase something (in this case labor) then it is really up to you if you wish to continue with the purchasing.

If a home owner pays for their lawn to be mowed , they are purchasing labor with their money.
if their new years resolution is to get fit and do the mowing and they cease this purchasing, have they "unfairly dismissed ' the lawn mower man.

i think they are fully entitled (in a market economy) to use their money how they wish.

in the same way, if the lawnmower man is truly excellent, adds value by doing the hedges as well, he is fully entitled to invoice for more money and HE CAN DISMISS THEM as a client if he so wishes.

this is how "free" enterprise works

If you buy a truck for the business you don't expect loyalty, you don't expect it to work additional hour unfunded, you don't expect for it to go the extra yard.

Labour is not a resource just the same as the others, it comes with a different set of rules and this is no secret.

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