Australian Politics Forum - Business Groups And The Unfair Dismissal Laws

Dnarever Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 59483 Here Gender:	Re: Business Groups And The Unfair Dismissal Laws Reply #30 - Dec 24^th, 2015 at 8:07am Quote: They wonder why people join unions. Go figure. I can't work it out ? They say that some people liked the dark ages.
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aquascoot

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Re: Business Groups And The Unfair Dismissal Laws
Reply #31 - Dec 24^th, 2015 at 8:32am

Dnarever wrote on Dec 24^th, 2015 at 8:07am:

aquascoot wrote on Dec 24^th, 2015 at 7:59am:

Quote:

What about if an employee is Unfairly let go?. Sad

If you are a business and you are using your capital to purchase something (in this case labor) then it is really up to you if you wish to continue with the purchasing.

If a home owner pays for their lawn to be mowed , they are purchasing labor with their money.
if their new years resolution is to get fit and do the mowing and they cease this purchasing, have they "unfairly dismissed ' the lawn mower man.

i think they are fully entitled (in a market economy) to use their money how they wish.

in the same way, if the lawnmower man is truly excellent, adds value by doing the hedges as well, he is fully entitled to invoice for more money and HE CAN DISMISS THEM as a client if he so wishes.

this is how "free" enterprise works

If you buy a truck for the business you don't expect loyalty, you don't expect it to work additional hour unfunded, you don't expect for it to go the extra yard.

Labour is not a resource just the same as the others, it comes with a different set of rules and this is no secret.

where does this idea of "unfair" come from.

a man or woman can go to the family court and get a divorce.
there is no question of whether one partner is being "unfairly dismissed'

it is just accepted that if 2 people do not get on in a relationship, they can legally part ways .

Yet an employer in a relationship , where far less emotional involvement occurs is held to some gold standard of being "forced" to "make the relationship work"

if an employer and an employee are not happy in there relationship, a divorce is in order.
and there should be no question as to whether one party feels slighted.
as the great leftard Gough said, we need to make divorce as simple and easy as possible for the good of both parties

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mariacostel

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Re: Business Groups And The Unfair Dismissal Laws
Reply #32 - Dec 24^th, 2015 at 10:28am

Dnarever wrote on Dec 24^th, 2015 at 7:41am:

mariacostel wrote on Dec 24^th, 2015 at 6:03am:

Dnarever wrote on Dec 23^rd, 2015 at 5:19pm:

Maria.
PLEASE PLEASE start your own business and hire staff

Been there done that - didn't like it much.

Today it is relatively easy to move on someone who does not work out but I have found that it is easier to make sure you are employing good people in the first place.

In general I have had huge success with the people who worked for me.

So in summary, you tried your own business, failed and went back to being an employee. Hardly support for any discussion on the difficulties of hiring staff.

Summary incorrect. As I said I didn't like it.

The business itself is still running I on sold it for a reasonable profit. I went back to a corporate mid management position at the time and went on from there. The business was lucky enough to always cover all wages and produce a net profit - it paid tax every year. I didn't like the stress the hours or the time forced to be spent away from the core work, I knew that I would make significantly more in the corporate world with less negatives.

I have been thinking of another go at small business this would be the third time for myself, once unplanned virtually by accident and also once managing a SB for someone else (hospitality industry) who needed time away.

You paid company tax? Please say yes so I can call you a liar. If you were the business owner you would have taken 100% of the profits in salary or distributions or bought equipment. There is no chance you paid company tax.

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mariacostel

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Re: Business Groups And The Unfair Dismissal Laws
Reply #33 - Dec 24^th, 2015 at 10:29am

Dnarever wrote on Dec 24^th, 2015 at 8:07am:

Quote:

They wonder why people join unions. Go figure. Sad

I can't work it out ?

They say that some people liked the dark ages.

They wonder why some people wont work. I cant work it out. They say that some people like the dole. Personally I have much higher ambitions.

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greggerypeccary

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Re: Business Groups And The Unfair Dismissal Laws
Reply #34 - Dec 24^th, 2015 at 10:42am

Armchair_Politician wrote on Dec 24^th, 2015 at 7:24am:

Alinta wrote on Dec 23^rd, 2015 at 3:57pm:

I'd agree it's a good call. They weren't reinstated and the two weeks wages each of the men received is fair compensation for the time it would have taken to follow all correct procedure.

So you think they should be compensated for having done the wrong thing?

They weren't compensated for doing the wrong thing.

They were compensated because the employer did the wrong thing.

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Dnarever

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Re: Business Groups And The Unfair Dismissal Laws
Reply #35 - Dec 24^th, 2015 at 10:45am

mariacostel wrote on Dec 24^th, 2015 at 10:28am:

Dnarever wrote on Dec 24^th, 2015 at 7:41am:

mariacostel wrote on Dec 24^th, 2015 at 6:03am:

Dnarever wrote on Dec 23^rd, 2015 at 5:19pm:

Maria.
PLEASE PLEASE start your own business and hire staff

Been there done that - didn't like it much.

Today it is relatively easy to move on someone who does not work out but I have found that it is easier to make sure you are employing good people in the first place.

In general I have had huge success with the people who worked for me.

So in summary, you tried your own business, failed and went back to being an employee. Hardly support for any discussion on the difficulties of hiring staff.

Summary incorrect. As I said I didn't like it.

The business itself is still running I on sold it for a reasonable profit. I went back to a corporate mid management position at the time and went on from there. The business was lucky enough to always cover all wages and produce a net profit - it paid tax every year. I didn't like the stress the hours or the time forced to be spent away from the core work, I knew that I would make significantly more in the corporate world with less negatives.

I have been thinking of another go at small business this would be the third time for myself, once unplanned virtually by accident and also once managing a SB for someone else (hospitality industry) who needed time away.

You paid company tax? Please say yes so I can call you a liar. If you were the business owner you would have taken 100% of the profits in salary or distributions or bought equipment. There is no chance you paid company tax.

You are putting your own claims into question - No I was never a sole trader.

As stated the business was registered (as a company) and yes it paid tax, a bloody lot of it.

You paid company tax? Technically I didn't - the company did.

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Kytro

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Re: Business Groups And The Unfair Dismissal Laws
Reply #36 - Dec 24^th, 2015 at 10:46am

mariacostel wrote on Dec 23^rd, 2015 at 5:18pm:

PLEASE PLEASE start your own business and hire staff. That superior attitude of yours will disappear really quickly when you have a lazy, rude and disruptive employee and you find you cannot sack him.

Those are reasons to sack him. Just not on the spot.

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Kiron22

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Re: Business Groups And The Unfair Dismissal Laws
Reply #37 - Dec 24^th, 2015 at 10:49am

Yeah I have no idea where this idea you can't sack staff comes from. When I was doing HR paper work I enjoyed skimming through files I had to sought of employees and employees got fired all the time for being lazy shitheads and its right there in the paper work, but there is a process you have to go through, warning, second warning, fire.

It's not hard.

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Dnarever

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Re: Business Groups And The Unfair Dismissal Laws
Reply #38 - Dec 24^th, 2015 at 10:52am

aquascoot wrote on Dec 24^th, 2015 at 8:32am:

Dnarever wrote on Dec 24^th, 2015 at 8:07am:

aquascoot wrote on Dec 24^th, 2015 at 7:59am:

Quote:

What about if an employee is Unfairly let go?. Sad

If you are a business and you are using your capital to purchase something (in this case labor) then it is really up to you if you wish to continue with the purchasing.

If a home owner pays for their lawn to be mowed , they are purchasing labor with their money.
if their new years resolution is to get fit and do the mowing and they cease this purchasing, have they "unfairly dismissed ' the lawn mower man.

i think they are fully entitled (in a market economy) to use their money how they wish.

in the same way, if the lawnmower man is truly excellent, adds value by doing the hedges as well, he is fully entitled to invoice for more money and HE CAN DISMISS THEM as a client if he so wishes.

this is how "free" enterprise works

If you buy a truck for the business you don't expect loyalty, you don't expect it to work additional hour unfunded, you don't expect for it to go the extra yard.

Labour is not a resource just the same as the others, it comes with a different set of rules and this is no secret.

where does this idea of "unfair" come from.

a man or woman can go to the family court and get a divorce.
there is no question of whether one partner is being "unfairly dismissed'

it is just accepted that if 2 people do not get on in a relationship, they can legally part ways .

Yet an employer in a relationship , where far less emotional involvement occurs is held to some gold standard of being "forced" to "make the relationship work"

if an employer and an employee are not happy in there relationship, a divorce is in order.
and there should be no question as to whether one party feels slighted.
as the great leftard Gough said, we need to make divorce as simple and easy as possible for the good of both parties

WOW - hard to say anything to this ????

I would love my wife to take me for unfair dismissal instead of a divorce. 8 weeks pay would be a bargain.

Fact is I would only lose 2 houses a pile of cash and assets plus untold $'s in superannuation - if I were lucky.

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greggerypeccary

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Re: Business Groups And The Unfair Dismissal Laws
Reply #39 - Dec 24^th, 2015 at 10:55am

Kiron22 wrote on Dec 24^th, 2015 at 10:49am:

Yeah I have no idea where this idea you can't sack staff comes from.

It's a myth that's been around for a while.

Like you, I don't know where it comes from or why people continue to believe it.

If an employer has a "lazy, rude and disruptive employee", there is nothing preventing them from terminating their employment.

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aquascoot

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Re: Business Groups And The Unfair Dismissal Laws
Reply #40 - Dec 24^th, 2015 at 11:03am

Dnarever wrote on Dec 24^th, 2015 at 10:52am:

aquascoot wrote on Dec 24^th, 2015 at 8:32am:

Dnarever wrote on Dec 24^th, 2015 at 8:07am:

aquascoot wrote on Dec 24^th, 2015 at 7:59am:

Quote:

What about if an employee is Unfairly let go?. Sad

If you are a business and you are using your capital to purchase something (in this case labor) then it is really up to you if you wish to continue with the purchasing.

If a home owner pays for their lawn to be mowed , they are purchasing labor with their money.
if their new years resolution is to get fit and do the mowing and they cease this purchasing, have they "unfairly dismissed ' the lawn mower man.

i think they are fully entitled (in a market economy) to use their money how they wish.

in the same way, if the lawnmower man is truly excellent, adds value by doing the hedges as well, he is fully entitled to invoice for more money and HE CAN DISMISS THEM as a client if he so wishes.

this is how "free" enterprise works

If you buy a truck for the business you don't expect loyalty, you don't expect it to work additional hour unfunded, you don't expect for it to go the extra yard.

Labour is not a resource just the same as the others, it comes with a different set of rules and this is no secret.

where does this idea of "unfair" come from.

a man or woman can go to the family court and get a divorce.
there is no question of whether one partner is being "unfairly dismissed'

it is just accepted that if 2 people do not get on in a relationship, they can legally part ways .

Yet an employer in a relationship , where far less emotional involvement occurs is held to some gold standard of being "forced" to "make the relationship work"

if an employer and an employee are not happy in there relationship, a divorce is in order.
and there should be no question as to whether one party feels slighted.
as the great leftard Gough said, we need to make divorce as simple and easy as possible for the good of both parties

WOW - hard to say anything to this ????

I would love my wife to take me for unfair dismissal instead of a divorce. 8 weeks pay would be a bargain.

Fact is I would only lose 2 houses a pile of cash and assets plus untold $'s in superannuation - if I were lucky.

Good point Cheesy

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Dnarever

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Re: Business Groups And The Unfair Dismissal Laws
Reply #41 - Dec 24^th, 2015 at 11:05am

mariacostel wrote on Dec 24^th, 2015 at 10:29am:

Dnarever wrote on Dec 24^th, 2015 at 8:07am:

Quote:

They wonder why people join unions. Go figure. Sad

I can't work it out ?

They say that some people liked the dark ages.

They wonder why some people wont work. I cant work it out. They say that some people like the dole. Personally I have much higher ambitions.

Solution: buy a large mirror and stand in front of it - study the result..

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mariacostel

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Re: Business Groups And The Unfair Dismissal Laws
Reply #42 - Dec 24^th, 2015 at 11:06am

Dnarever wrote on Dec 24^th, 2015 at 10:45am:

mariacostel wrote on Dec 24^th, 2015 at 10:28am:

Dnarever wrote on Dec 24^th, 2015 at 7:41am:

mariacostel wrote on Dec 24^th, 2015 at 6:03am:

Dnarever wrote on Dec 23^rd, 2015 at 5:19pm:

Maria.
PLEASE PLEASE start your own business and hire staff

Been there done that - didn't like it much.

Today it is relatively easy to move on someone who does not work out but I have found that it is easier to make sure you are employing good people in the first place.

In general I have had huge success with the people who worked for me.

So in summary, you tried your own business, failed and went back to being an employee. Hardly support for any discussion on the difficulties of hiring staff.

Summary incorrect. As I said I didn't like it.

The business itself is still running I on sold it for a reasonable profit. I went back to a corporate mid management position at the time and went on from there. The business was lucky enough to always cover all wages and produce a net profit - it paid tax every year. I didn't like the stress the hours or the time forced to be spent away from the core work, I knew that I would make significantly more in the corporate world with less negatives.

I have been thinking of another go at small business this would be the third time for myself, once unplanned virtually by accident and also once managing a SB for someone else (hospitality industry) who needed time away.

You paid company tax? Please say yes so I can call you a liar. If you were the business owner you would have taken 100% of the profits in salary or distributions or bought equipment. There is no chance you paid company tax.

You are putting your own claims into question - No I was never a sole trader.

As stated the business was registered (as a company) and yes it paid tax, a bloody lot of it.

You paid company tax? Technically I didn't - the company did.

If the business is privately owned then the profits can all be distributed to the owners via salary or distribution thus avoiding company tax. If you decide to pay company tax and then take a distribution, the tax is franked and the end result is exactly the same. So why would you pay company tax at all?

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Dnarever

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Re: Business Groups And The Unfair Dismissal Laws
Reply #43 - Dec 24^th, 2015 at 1:12pm

mariacostel wrote on Dec 24^th, 2015 at 11:06am:

If the business is privately owned then the profits can all be distributed to the owners via salary or distribution thus avoiding company tax. If you decide to pay company tax and then take a distribution, the tax is franked and the end result is exactly the same. So why would you pay company tax at all?

You think it is a good idea to pay 45c personal tax in preference to paying 30c company tax ?

There are millions of companies out there paying tax, we know many high profile companies structure to avoid paying any tax but not everyone is like that.

Quote:

If you decide to pay company tax and then take a distribution, the tax is franked and the end result is exactly the same. So why would you pay company tax at all?

No it isn't exactly the same - the distribution as you say is franked because the company paid 30% tax on it.

You get the meaning of this - the company paid the tax on it - the company paid the tax on it ?????

You understand what the company paying the tax on it means. It means that the company paid tax ????

After the company paid tax on it and it is distributed you may still pay a bit more tax on it as it still forms part of your personal tax return and the franked amount is taxed (30%) if your income is taxed at an all over higher rate you then owe the taxman the difference. normally in my experience not a lot.

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longweekend58

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Re: Business Groups And The Unfair Dismissal Laws
Reply #44 - Dec 25^th, 2015 at 7:01pm

Dnarever wrote on Dec 24^th, 2015 at 1:12pm:

mariacostel wrote on Dec 24^th, 2015 at 11:06am:

If the business is privately owned then the profits can all be distributed to the owners via salary or distribution thus avoiding company tax. If you decide to pay company tax and then take a distribution, the tax is franked and the end result is exactly the same. So why would you pay company tax at all?

You think it is a good idea to pay 45c personal tax in preference to paying 30c company tax ?

There are millions of companies out there paying tax, we know many high profile companies structure to avoid paying any tax but not everyone is like that.

Quote:

If you decide to pay company tax and then take a distribution, the tax is franked and the end result is exactly the same. So why would you pay company tax at all?

No it isn't exactly the same - the distribution as you say is franked because the company paid 30% tax on it.

You get the meaning of this - the company paid the tax on it - the company paid the tax on it ?????

You understand what the company paying the tax on it means. It means that the company paid tax ????

After the company paid tax on it and it is distributed you may still pay a bit more tax on it as it still forms part of your personal tax return and the franked amount is taxed (30%) if your income is taxed at an all over higher rate you then owe the taxman the difference. normally in my experience not a lot.

Took me a while to catch up on this one. You are wrong of course. and i speak as a company owner. you can take profit as salary and pay 45c on it or the company can pay 30c on it and then you can pay another 15c on. the effect is the same which is why for many companies the company tax rate is immaterial

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