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Free speech is under threat from Islam .. (Read 20411 times)
Karnal
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Re: Free speech is under threat from Islam ..
Reply #45 - Jan 15th, 2016 at 2:39pm
 
Here's a good one on Andrew Bolt. This article also encapsulates the discussion we're having here.

Quote:
Bolted down

Richard Cooke

“How could I have failed so completely to convince so many people that I am actually fighting exactly what I’m accused of?”

That’s the question Andrew Bolt asked his readers last year, after the Aboriginal academic Marcia Langton accused him of being a racist. She later apologised, but the episode rattled Bolt so badly he stayed out of the office for a day. He is, after all, a dedicated anti-racist.

In the wake of the Paris attacks, Bolt has suggested a cut in the number of Muslim migrants, a call he has made a number of times before. He has also recommended not taking African immigrants for the same reasons: failure to integrate, propensity to criminality.

This – let's be frank – is an unusual position for an anti-racism campaigner to take. It’s difficult to think of anyone else who describes themselves that way advocating racialised immigration quotas. But what makes it especially unique is how it sits against the rest of Bolt’s personal philosophy.

Elsewhere, he deplores those who harp on the difference between colours and creeds. They, he says, promulgate the “new tribalism” and “new racism” that threaten to tear us apart. Colour-blindness is key. This is why constitutional recognition for Indigenous Australians is racist, for example, as is Adam Goodes talking about colonial dispossession. Because it puts them apart. Creates division.
Strangely, this colour-blindness disappears when non-whites or Muslims commit crime. Then, for some reason, it becomes vitally important to talk about race, and restrict migration on the same basis. Bolt fulminates against judges who anonymise Muslim names in their judgements, or newspapers that fail to print racial descriptors of perpetrators. The old tribalism, the old racism, seem to be exempt from Bolt’s criticism.

Perhaps it’s all about culture, a word Bolt prefers (partly because it is more “optimistic”, he says). It’s reasonable then to talk about the cultural element in Islamist terrorism, the same way it’s reasonable to talk about the role of tradition in the Catholic paedophilia scandal. That seems fair enough. Except Bolt described the latter conversation as a “great onslaught of hate” in the media, “a witch-hunt”, “a hate campaign against innocent Catholics”, an attempt to “destroy the sanctity of the confessional” and “tear down the structures of the church”.

It’s difficult to see clearly through the colour-blindfold, but it’s almost like there’s one rule for one set of people, and another rule for others.

I am not a fan of hunting through website comment sections, then smearing writers with their contents. “Nut hunting”, it’s called, a name that shows how easy it is, and how pointless. But the readers of Andrew Bolt’s blog express sentiments so pervasively vile that their sum is unignorable. Five minutes’ reading will be more than enough to get the flavour (remember, too, that it’s moderated –  the juicier turds have already been skimmed from this sewer).

One example has really stuck with me. It’s a comment from a reader called Herb, a former colonial resident of Papua New Guinea. He’d often enjoyed watching colonial riot police at work in the 1960s:
Driving back from the town to the airport I often came across and watched ‘the Police Boi Riot Squad’ at work… The Police Bois laid into anything over their shields with enormous ferocity, arcing their batons from near the ground … The ‘boinks’ were the police bois giving a massive clobber on the skulls like slamming two wooden blocks together …

Herb was writing in at the time of the Manus Island riots. And, like so many of Bolt’s readers, longing for yesteryear.

If the refugees fronted a Police Boi riot squad anywhere near as disciplined in earlier times, they would for sure clobber those thin middle eastern skulls …

Perhaps the reason that it's stuck with me is that Bolt decided to publish it on his blog, in full. “Detainees met a PNG police force that hits back” was the headline.

“Reader Herb gives background to the violent police response to the Manus detention centre riot,” was the introduction. Background.

So how did Bolt's anti-racist readers respond to this image of a baton clobbering a “thin middle eastern skull”? (Why mention the thinness unless to imply breakage?)
With outrage? A re-assertion of love for their fellow man? Like this:

“Boink Boink Boink Boy thats a sound i would have liked to hear”

“What a marvellous description of well organised well disciplined squad”

“That’s how riot squads used to work in western countries too, until the touchy feelie brigade took over”

“Thankyou PNG … Well done, well done.”

I wonder how it would feel, to start an anti-racism campaign and find it polluted with these kinds of sentiments. There you are, just trying to provide some “background” to an event, and find this neutral communication violated by extreme sentiments like this.

I wonder how it feels to look around and find virtually no people of other races in your camp, apart from a few eccentrics and turncoats. To hold a position on the Stolen Generations that requires breezily invalidating the testimony of thousands of people (but only for their benefit, of course).
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Karnal
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Re: Free speech is under threat from Islam ..
Reply #46 - Jan 15th, 2016 at 3:10pm
 
polite_gandalf wrote on Jan 15th, 2016 at 2:34pm:
Karnal wrote on Jan 15th, 2016 at 10:27am:
This board has become a railing point for racists - old style neo-Nazis. Once, this sort of discourse was unthinkable. It was a given that racism was ridiculous.


So true. The change in tone in this forum from when it began to today is stark. In the early days people like Sprint were put in their place - not by counter-trolls, but with sound arguments - led by FD. Back then, the muslims on the board could have a civilized and constructive conversation about their religion - and most non-muslims were genuinely interested in learning, as opposed to constantly trying to corner and checkmate them.


I wonder if this is a phenomenon unique to this board, or if the same changes have happened outside. I see this board as a reflection of community attitudes, but I wonder if that's a mistake.

But then again, the last two years of Abbott were dazzling in their ignorance and hostility. To see people defending the policies, the backflips and the dumb attacks on Gillian Triggs, the ABC, the UNHCR, etc, was eye-opening. The lies, the slogans and the transparent propaganda were breathtaking too. How could they ever think they could get away with it?

FD himself is part of community standards, and look how far he's turned. Or did he?

Is racism something latent like the self-confessed racists assert? Was there always a racist in FD trying to get out? And like FD, could we say the same for ourselves?

Maybe we can. I believe I could turn for a good reason. The thing I can't understand, however, is the porkies, the evasion. Why pretend? Why not just say what you think?

FD used to say the same thing about Abu. His reason for starting the Wiki in the first place was to keep track of Abu's ridiculous ideas and hold him to them. Now, it's amazing how similar FD has become to Abu himself - not to the religious fundamentalism, of course, but the rigid dogma and the slippery evasion and slight of hand that goes along with it.

So yes, while I understand that changing your mind is always an option, I have to consider that changing your entire moral compass is possible too.
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Re: Free speech is under threat from Islam ..
Reply #47 - Jan 15th, 2016 at 3:15pm
 
Quote:
Why pretend? Why not just say what you think?


This is the question we've been asking of leftards for years, rhetorically of course. 

You and I both know why - for the same reason a commie wouldn't say what he really thought in the McCarthy era, or an academic thought in year zero Cambodia.

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In the fullness of time...
 
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Karnal
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Re: Free speech is under threat from Islam ..
Reply #48 - Jan 15th, 2016 at 3:55pm
 
... wrote on Jan 15th, 2016 at 3:15pm:
Quote:
Why pretend? Why not just say what you think?


This is the question we've been asking of leftards for years, rhetorically of course. 

You and I both know why - for the same reason a commie wouldn't say what he really thought in the McCarthy era, or an academic thought in year zero Cambodia.



True, Honky, but you're one of the few people dumb enough to say what he really thinks.

FD isn't nearly as brave as you.
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Soren
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Re: Free speech is under threat from Islam ..
Reply #49 - Jan 15th, 2016 at 3:55pm
 
... wrote on Jan 15th, 2016 at 3:15pm:
Quote:
Why pretend? Why not just say what you think?


This is the question we've been asking of leftards for years, rhetorically of course. 

You and I both know why - for the same reason a commie wouldn't say what he really thought in the McCarthy era, or an academic thought in year zero Cambodia.




The White Queen in Alice Through the Looking Glass said that she often believed as many as six impossible things before breakfast.  There are many impossible things that we in the West are expected to believe – that Islam is a religion of peace; that multiculturalism works; that numbers don’t matter when it comes to mass migration; and that the identity of migrants doesn’t matter either.


What we should do instead : stop mass migration, protect ourselves from the civil war raging within Islam, absorb those who are already here, reconstruct, instead of deconstruct, our societies and last but not least, stop believing impossible things.
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Karnal
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Re: Free speech is under threat from Islam ..
Reply #50 - Jan 15th, 2016 at 3:58pm
 
Soren wrote on Jan 15th, 2016 at 3:55pm:
... wrote on Jan 15th, 2016 at 3:15pm:
Quote:
Why pretend? Why not just say what you think?


This is the question we've been asking of leftards for years, rhetorically of course. 

You and I both know why - for the same reason a commie wouldn't say what he really thought in the McCarthy era, or an academic thought in year zero Cambodia.




The White Queen in Alice Through the Looking Glass said that she often believed as many as six impossible things before breakfast.  There are many impossible things that we in the West are expected to believe – that Islam is a religion of peace; that multiculturalism works; that numbers don’t matter when it comes to mass migration; and that the identity of migrants doesn’t matter either.


What we should do instead : stop mass migration, protect ourselves from the civil war raging within Islam, absorb those who are already here, reconstruct, instead of deconstruct, our societies and last but not least, stop believing impossible things.


Oh, we tried all that with Mr Abbott as our Roads and Infrastructure Prime Minister, old chap.

Turned out it wasn't possible.
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Soren
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Re: Free speech is under threat from Islam ..
Reply #51 - Jan 15th, 2016 at 4:02pm
 
Karnal wrote on Jan 15th, 2016 at 3:58pm:
Soren wrote on Jan 15th, 2016 at 3:55pm:
... wrote on Jan 15th, 2016 at 3:15pm:
Quote:
Why pretend? Why not just say what you think?


This is the question we've been asking of leftards for years, rhetorically of course. 

You and I both know why - for the same reason a commie wouldn't say what he really thought in the McCarthy era, or an academic thought in year zero Cambodia.




The White Queen in Alice Through the Looking Glass said that she often believed as many as six impossible things before breakfast.  There are many impossible things that we in the West are expected to believe – that Islam is a religion of peace; that multiculturalism works; that numbers don’t matter when it comes to mass migration; and that the identity of migrants doesn’t matter either.


What we should do instead : stop mass migration, protect ourselves from the civil war raging within Islam, absorb those who are already here, reconstruct, instead of deconstruct, our societies and last but not least, stop believing impossible things.


Oh, we tried all that with Mr Abbott as our Roads and Infrastructure Prime Minister, old chap.

Turned out it wasn't possible.

Why is it not possible?  It will be done sooner or later.


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Karnal
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Re: Free speech is under threat from Islam ..
Reply #52 - Jan 15th, 2016 at 4:15pm
 
Soren wrote on Jan 15th, 2016 at 4:02pm:
Karnal wrote on Jan 15th, 2016 at 3:58pm:
Soren wrote on Jan 15th, 2016 at 3:55pm:
... wrote on Jan 15th, 2016 at 3:15pm:
Quote:
Why pretend? Why not just say what you think?


This is the question we've been asking of leftards for years, rhetorically of course. 

You and I both know why - for the same reason a commie wouldn't say what he really thought in the McCarthy era, or an academic thought in year zero Cambodia.




The White Queen in Alice Through the Looking Glass said that she often believed as many as six impossible things before breakfast.  There are many impossible things that we in the West are expected to believe – that Islam is a religion of peace; that multiculturalism works; that numbers don’t matter when it comes to mass migration; and that the identity of migrants doesn’t matter either.


What we should do instead : stop mass migration, protect ourselves from the civil war raging within Islam, absorb those who are already here, reconstruct, instead of deconstruct, our societies and last but not least, stop believing impossible things.


Oh, we tried all that with Mr Abbott as our Roads and Infrastructure Prime Minister, old chap.

Turned out it wasn't possible.

Why is it not possible? 


Why is it not possible? I have no doubt it may well be possible one day, old chap.

Why was it not possible? I'll start with this if you don't mind.

I think the answer to your amended question gets to the heart of things. Mr Abbott failed because of his porkies. He promised the electorate one thing, and then went straight in and did another.

He couldn't get a thing through the senate because he didn't have any mandate or popular support. He couldn't get many things through his cabinet because he hadn't consulted or thought things through. And he couldn't get anything past the public because he dumbed everything down in three-word slogans, avoiding all debate and clarification, and ultimately treating the electorate like fools.

But the reasons for Mr Abbott's removal may well provide hope for the future. It shows that we are, in some ways, a democracy. Power in Australia does not lie at the top. People, from lobbyists to business to MPs to voters themselves, expect to be consulted and included in discussion.

And this is why I think that your agenda will come later rather than sooner. People don't like porkies, and they're not as dumb as you think.
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Soren
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Re: Free speech is under threat from Islam ..
Reply #53 - Jan 15th, 2016 at 6:15pm
 
polite_gandalf wrote on Jan 15th, 2016 at 2:34pm:
Karnal wrote on Jan 15th, 2016 at 10:27am:
This board has become a railing point for racists - old style neo-Nazis. Once, this sort of discourse was unthinkable. It was a given that racism was ridiculous.


So true. The change in tone in this forum from when it began to today is stark. In the early days people like Sprint were put in their place - not by counter-trolls, but with sound arguments - led by FD. Back then, the muslims on the board could have a civilized and constructive conversation about their religion - and most non-muslims were genuinely interested in learning, as opposed to constantly trying to corner and checkmate them.



Such utter bollocks.  Opposing an ideology is not racist. It wasn't racist to oppose Napoleon, Wilhelm II, Lenin, Stalin, Hitler, Mao, Ho, the Soviet, etc. Islam is an ideology and it is not racist to oppose it.  It is an indefensible and dishonest lie to veil Islam in the niqab of race. And you both continue this lie as a matter of determined policy.

Opposing western liberal democracy and enlightenment is not racists. Nor is the ideology, Islam that opposes it.  They both have universal claims going well past any parochial, tribal little race identity.

Grow up and grow a brain, the both of you.

...

Submission to Stupid is not confined to brown people.i

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Karnal
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Re: Free speech is under threat from Islam ..
Reply #54 - Jan 15th, 2016 at 6:21pm
 
You’re not racist, dear boy. The tinted races are not a race.

Your superiority over them is not racism either - you were just born that way. This is a scientifically proven fact. Correlation, not causation, innit.

To pretend anything else would be mendacity of the highest orfer - on stilts, I believe.

You’ve told us so many times. Not only do you think the Muselman should be kept out - the tinted should be excluded too.

Remember, they have also declared war against the West by being too stupid to consent to white man’s burden. If they can’t be interned, they need to be properly carpetbombed. Paki Bastards, post-colonial numpties, grinning sh!t-eaters, pederasts and sodomites, the lot.

You’re not racist, old boy. You’re objective.
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Re: Free speech is under threat from Islam ..
Reply #55 - Jan 15th, 2016 at 6:27pm
 
Karnal wrote on Jan 15th, 2016 at 4:15pm:
Soren wrote on Jan 15th, 2016 at 4:02pm:
Karnal wrote on Jan 15th, 2016 at 3:58pm:
Soren wrote on Jan 15th, 2016 at 3:55pm:
... wrote on Jan 15th, 2016 at 3:15pm:
Quote:
Why pretend? Why not just say what you think?


This is the question we've been asking of leftards for years, rhetorically of course. 

You and I both know why - for the same reason a commie wouldn't say what he really thought in the McCarthy era, or an academic thought in year zero Cambodia.




The White Queen in Alice Through the Looking Glass said that she often believed as many as six impossible things before breakfast.  There are many impossible things that we in the West are expected to believe – that Islam is a religion of peace; that multiculturalism works; that numbers don’t matter when it comes to mass migration; and that the identity of migrants doesn’t matter either.


What we should do instead : stop mass migration, protect ourselves from the civil war raging within Islam, absorb those who are already here, reconstruct, instead of deconstruct, our societies and last but not least, stop believing impossible things.


Oh, we tried all that with Mr Abbott as our Roads and Infrastructure Prime Minister, old chap.

Turned out it wasn't possible.

Why is it not possible? 


Why is it not possible? I have no doubt it may well be possible one day, old chap.

Why was it not possible? I'll start with this if you don't mind.

I think the answer to your amended question gets to the heart of things. Mr Abbott failed because of his porkies. He promised the electorate one thing, and then went straight in and did another.

He couldn't get a thing through the senate because he didn't have any mandate or popular support. He couldn't get many things through his cabinet because he hadn't consulted or thought things through. And he couldn't get anything past the public because he dumbed everything down in three-word slogans, avoiding all debate and clarification, and ultimately treating the electorate like fools.

But the reasons for Mr Abbott's removal may well provide hope for the future. It shows that we are, in some ways, a democracy. Power in Australia does not lie at the top. People, from lobbyists to business to MPs to voters themselves, expect to be consulted and included in discussion.

And this is why I think that your agenda will come later rather than sooner. People don't like porkies, and they're not as dumb as you think.



Muslims in the West are a problem. That problem will have to be dealt with. Allowing more Muslim immigration is NOT the way to deal with it.


The choice is to Westernise Islam or Islamise the West. The latter will not happen without a massive bloodbath.

So the problem has to be dealt with, either by Westernising Islam (no chance) or keeping Islam out.

Islam is fundamentally and unalterably, and from  first principles, opposed to secular enlightenment values, whether political, moral or religious. Only non-practicing, non-pious Muslims fit into a society that is fundamentally opposed to all tenets of Islam.  At present we cannot tell apostates and laggards from the pious and earnest Muslims at the borders. Until we can we should stop all of them.
Until we know what to do with the ones already inside the borders, we should stop importing more.

This is not difficult at all.  And it has nuffin' to wiv Abbott.

We didn't continue with unrestricted German and Japanese immigration between 1933 and 1945. We didn't have unrestricted immigration for communist party members after 1945. How are devotees of Mohammed different?  Why are we letting in the sons of Allah now, after they have made their murderous opposition to our society clear as clear can be???i
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Re: Free speech is under threat from Islam ..
Reply #56 - Jan 15th, 2016 at 6:29pm
 
Karnal wrote on Jan 15th, 2016 at 6:21pm:
You’re not racist, dear boy. The tinted races are not a race.

Your superiority over them is not racism either - you were just born that way.

Correlation not causation, innit.

You did notice that the noob whose picture I posted is not tinted, no?

Or do you just repeat the same stupid crap, no matter what the counter-argument?
(yes, he does. ed.)
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Karnal
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Re: Free speech is under threat from Islam ..
Reply #57 - Jan 15th, 2016 at 6:44pm
 
Soren wrote on Jan 15th, 2016 at 6:29pm:
Karnal wrote on Jan 15th, 2016 at 6:21pm:
You’re not racist, dear boy. The tinted races are not a race.

Your superiority over them is not racism either - you were just born that way.

Correlation not causation, innit.

You did notice that the noob whose picture I posted is not tinted, no?

Or do you just repeat the same stupid crap, no matter what the counter-argument?
(yes, he does. ed.)


No, dear boy, I didn’t notice that. I think it was the beard.

Bearded numpties need to go too.

That’s not racist, it’s a scientifically proven fact. Do you know what you are, old chap?

You’re a liberal. You’re here to defend our proud Enlightenment tradition.

Ban them.
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Re: Free speech is under threat from Islam ..
Reply #58 - Jan 15th, 2016 at 6:47pm
 
Karnal wrote on Jan 15th, 2016 at 10:27am:
It was a given that racism was ridiculous. It went completely against the Western Enlightenment tradition. It went completely against modernity. We'd seen its conclusion in the Holocaust, and we saw how divisive, destructive and ultimately pointless it is.




It doesn't matter how often you repeat it, it is still utter bollocks, PB.

None of this is about race. You use 'race' becayse there is no readily employable word to convey the alienness and complete undesirability of some cultures.

Your constant banging on about race is really an evasion - a conscious, purposeful evasion of the agit-prop pseudo-intellectual - of cultural incomaptibility. 

Cultures, especially Christianity and its fruits - Enlightenment, universal human rights, equality before the law, etc - call everyone out of their tribes, races, clans. There is no race in Christianity or in secular Enlightenment.  But you carry on as if there was.

Opposition to Islam is not based on race.  It is completely dishonest - knowingly dishonest - of you and Gandy to have a daily wank-fest about how opposition to Islam is all nothing but racism. But since you have no ability to come up with a valid defence of Islam in the West, you resort to the 'racists' dishonesty.

Is the Archbishop of Nigeria racist for opposing Islam? 

Does Islam make you dishonest about this issue, or is it the guilt about the colour of your skins - both of you being white honkies.  Are you self-hating here, day in, day out?



Please explain.




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Karnal
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Re: Free speech is under threat from Islam ..
Reply #59 - Jan 15th, 2016 at 6:53pm
 
Good point, old chap. You’re not racist. Christians and those who profess to support universal human rights can’t possibly be racists. Christianity and the Western Enlightenment tradition are not racist.

Utter bollocks, of course. I made this point in the post you quoted, so it must be.

Typical.
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