Australian Politics Forum - Free speech is under threat from Islam ..

Karnal

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Re: Free speech is under threat from Islam ..
Reply #75 - Jan 15^th, 2016 at 10:12pm

Soren wrote on Jan 15^th, 2016 at 10:06pm:

freediver wrote on Jan 14^th, 2016 at 6:58pm:

What is the death toll so far?

There's a cut-through question for you, Gandy: What is the death toll for ripping off niqabs and hijabs?

Zero.

We don’t have to kill them too, do we?

Can’t we get the feminists to do it?

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Karnal

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Re: Free speech is under threat from Islam ..
Reply #76 - Jan 15^th, 2016 at 10:15pm

Soren wrote on Jan 15^th, 2016 at 10:09pm:

Karnal wrote on Jan 15^th, 2016 at 10:05pm:

Ah yes, the good old eternal principle - like snatching headscarves off old ladies, all for the feminist cause. Most Voltairean.

Could we pay some nice person to do it, dear boy? I don’t want to.put my job at risk. I have a mortgage and mouths to feed.

Look, let’s just say we’ll do it and leave it at that. That should work.

It’s the principle that counts, shurely.

Exactly - it's the princilpe. Do you have any, PB? Of course you don't.
Other that being a PB , no matter what the circumstances.

How did you come up.with Pakistani Bastards, old boy?

Shurely they’re not a race either, right?

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polite_gandalf

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Re: Free speech is under threat from Islam ..
Reply #77 - Jan 16^th, 2016 at 3:09am

freediver wrote on Jan 15^th, 2016 at 6:55pm:

No Gandalf, I had to qualify my view on whether it was an attack on freedom - strangely enough, with whether it was an attack on freedom.

Can you explain to me a situation where an assault on a woman isn't an attack on her freedom?

Quote:

Sure, but not everything is about freedom Gandalf. I know you only just became the standard bearer for freedom of speech, but you should try not to get carried away. You are allowed to oppose things for other reasons.

In this context - I say rubbish. I man minding his own business who gets burgled is having his freedom attacked. A woman who gets raped and murdered has her freedom attacked. Their freedom to not be burgled or raped and murdered. Just like your beloved cartoonists having their freedom to not get murdered violated. But I take your point that the cartoon attacks are less random. But so are attacks against hijabis - and they shouldn't be apologised for just because the death toll is lower.

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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polite_gandalf Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 20027 Canberra Gender:	Re: Free speech is under threat from Islam .. Reply #78 - Jan 16^th, 2016 at 3:31am Soren wrote on Jan 15^th, 2016 at 10:06pm: So I invite you to to shove your insistence on equivalence up your arse How many times have I said they are not equivalent S? I've lost count.
Back to top	A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said: Quote: Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms. IP Logged

Soren

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Re: Free speech is under threat from Islam ..
Reply #79 - Jan 16^th, 2016 at 9:26am

polite_gandalf wrote on Jan 16^th, 2016 at 3:31am:

Soren wrote on Jan 15^th, 2016 at 10:06pm:

So I invite you to to shove your insistence on equivalence up your arse

How many times have I said they are not equivalent S? I've lost count.

150 gunned down in Paris by Muslims and what gets you hot under the collar? Hijabs and niqabs being ripped off of merely commented on in salty language.

You are not merely equivocating, you reflexively prioritise and exaggerate out of all proportion the slightest Muslim victimhood even when Muslims massacre infidels for Allah. You are the Muslim who frets in advance over the backlash following tomorrow's Islamic terror attack. To you, Muslim terrorism is a given, cannot be changed by Muslims because its not even their responsibility, so you want to talk endlessly about how the West doesn't like Muslims. You talk about race, discrimination, alienantion, socio-economic this and that - the one thing you don't face is Muslims' and Islam's role in Islamic terrorism. And you do not face it because that is precisely where you could do something about it.

But that would mean Muslims taking responsibility for themselves. And what would happen to your precious victimhood if you all did that??

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freediver

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Re: Free speech is under threat from Islam ..
Reply #80 - Jan 16^th, 2016 at 9:32am

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Can you explain to me a situation where an assault on a woman isn't an attack on her freedom?

That's what my last post was about - you know, the one where you thought I was explaining whether women should be assaulted or not.

Quote:

In this context - I say rubbish. I man minding his own business who gets burgled is having his freedom attacked. A woman who gets raped and murdered has her freedom attacked.

Do you see a significant difference between this and murdering a bunch of cartoonists for drawing Muhammed cartoons, other than it being "less random"?

Quote:

Just like your beloved cartoonists having their freedom to not get murdered violated.

Is it only the freedom of the cartoonists that was under attack?

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People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.

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Karnal

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Re: Free speech is under threat from Islam ..
Reply #81 - Jan 16^th, 2016 at 11:10am

Soren wrote on Jan 16^th, 2016 at 9:26am:

polite_gandalf wrote on Jan 16^th, 2016 at 3:31am:

Soren wrote on Jan 15^th, 2016 at 10:06pm:

So I invite you to to shove your insistence on equivalence up your arse

How many times have I said they are not equivalent S? I've lost count.

150 gunned down in Paris by Muslims and what gets you hot under the collar? Hijabs and niqabs being ripped off of merely commented on in salty language.

You are not merely equivocating, you reflexively prioritise and exaggerate out of all proportion the slightest Muslim victimhood even when Muslims massacre infidels for Allah. You are the Muslim who frets in advance over the backlash following tomorrow's Islamic terror attack. To you, Muslim terrorism is a given, cannot be changed by Muslims because its not even their responsibility, so you want to talk endlessly about how the West doesn't like Muslims. You talk about race, discrimination, alienantion, socio-economic this and that - the one thing you don't face is Muslims' and Islam's role in Islamic terrorism. And you do not face it because that is precisely where you could do something about it.

But that would mean Muslims taking responsibility for themselves. And what would happen to your precious victimhood if you all did that??

Always absolutely never ever is not a race.

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polite_gandalf

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Re: Free speech is under threat from Islam ..
Reply #82 - Jan 16^th, 2016 at 2:20pm

Soren wrote on Jan 16^th, 2016 at 9:26am:

polite_gandalf wrote on Jan 16^th, 2016 at 3:31am:

Soren wrote on Jan 15^th, 2016 at 10:06pm:

So I invite you to to shove your insistence on equivalence up your arse

How many times have I said they are not equivalent S? I've lost count.

150 gunned down in Paris by Muslims and what gets you hot under the collar? Hijabs and niqabs being ripped off of merely commented on in salty language.

You are not merely equivocating, you reflexively prioritise and exaggerate out of all proportion the slightest Muslim victimhood even when Muslims massacre infidels for Allah. You are the Muslim who frets in advance over the backlash following tomorrow's Islamic terror attack. To you, Muslim terrorism is a given, cannot be changed by Muslims because its not even their responsibility, so you want to talk endlessly about how the West doesn't like Muslims. You talk about race, discrimination, alienantion, socio-economic this and that - the one thing you don't face is Muslims' and Islam's role in Islamic terrorism. And you do not face it because that is precisely where you could do something about it.

But that would mean Muslims taking responsibility for themselves. And what would happen to your precious victimhood if you all did that??

murders and terrorism by muslims are outrageous by default, they don't need any arguments, qualifications, equivocations etc. Everyone agrees, so we don't argue the toss over that - apart from your constant strawmans about me excusing them of course.

What we don't agree on though is how we should view assaults on certain women for what they wear. That you apologise for assaults on hijabis and niqabis is bad enough - but in the context of this discussion about what attitudes are and aren't compatible with our values - it is hypocrisy at its worst. That you can't see the blinding irony of you railing against how offensive a certain choice of dress by muslim women is to our values on the one hand, and brazenly apologising for physical assaults on women on the other - speaks volumes. Like I said - the difference between you and me is that one of us excuses certain attacks on women, while the other condemns all acts of violence against innocent people.

Excusing and condoning physical assaults on women minding their own business, and pretending it is the victims who are "inconsiderate" are the sick values of your ideal society - it is not the values of the society in which we live in. You, my friend, are the one that doesn't belong here. Of course you'll always be able to rely on FD to constantly tapdance around your bigotry and pretend there's nothing to see, but don't expect the rest of mainstream society to be so forgiving.

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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polite_gandalf Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 20027 Canberra Gender:	Re: Free speech is under threat from Islam .. Reply #83 - Jan 16^th, 2016 at 2:26pm freediver wrote on Jan 16^th, 2016 at 9:32am: That's what my last post was about - you know, the one where you thought I was explaining whether women should be assaulted or not. But you didn't say FD. Again, can you explain to me a situation where an assault on a woman isn't an attack on her freedom?
Back to top	A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said: Quote: Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms. IP Logged

Soren

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Re: Free speech is under threat from Islam ..
Reply #84 - Jan 16^th, 2016 at 3:09pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Jan 16^th, 2016 at 2:20pm:

Soren wrote on Jan 16^th, 2016 at 9:26am:

polite_gandalf wrote on Jan 16^th, 2016 at 3:31am:

Soren wrote on Jan 15^th, 2016 at 10:06pm:

So I invite you to to shove your insistence on equivalence up your arse

How many times have I said they are not equivalent S? I've lost count.

150 gunned down in Paris by Muslims and what gets you hot under the collar? Hijabs and niqabs being ripped off of merely commented on in salty language.

You are not merely equivocating, you reflexively prioritise and exaggerate out of all proportion the slightest Muslim victimhood even when Muslims massacre infidels for Allah. You are the Muslim who frets in advance over the backlash following tomorrow's Islamic terror attack. To you, Muslim terrorism is a given, cannot be changed by Muslims because its not even their responsibility, so you want to talk endlessly about how the West doesn't like Muslims. You talk about race, discrimination, alienantion, socio-economic this and that - the one thing you don't face is Muslims' and Islam's role in Islamic terrorism. And you do not face it because that is precisely where you could do something about it.

But that would mean Muslims taking responsibility for themselves. And what would happen to your precious victimhood if you all did that??

murders and terrorism by muslims are outrageous by default, they don't need any arguments, qualifications, equivocations etc. Everyone agrees, so we don't argue the toss over that - apart from your constant strawmans about me excusing them of course.

What we don't agree on though is how we should view assaults on certain women for what they wear. That you apologise for assaults on hijabis and niqabis is bad enough - but in the context of this discussion about what attitudes are and aren't compatible with our values - it is hypocrisy at its worst. That you can't see the blinding irony of you railing against how offensive a certain choice of dress by muslim women is to our values on the one hand, and brazenly apologising for physical assaults on women on the other - speaks volumes.

Excusing and condoning physical assaults on women minding their own business, and pretending it is the victims who are "inconsiderate" are the sick values of your ideal society - it is not the values of the society in which we live in. You, my friend, are the one that doesn't belong here. Of course you'll always be able to rely on FD to constantly tapdance around your bigotry and pretend there's nothing to see, but don't expect the rest of mainstream society to be so forgiving.

As I said: you bang on about hijab and niqab removal after dismissing Muslim terrorism as a second order issue by comparison. But it's not.

You should be banging on about how you and your fellow Muslims are stopping your other fellow Muslims from committing outrages, day in day out, in the name of Islam. But you can barely bring yourself to say that Muslims are responsible for their ideology and the actions it motivates.

If Muslims were vissibly and actively countering their jihadis the burqas and hijabs and niqabs would not be seen as Islamic provoications.

What are the hijabis and niqabis doing about he jihadis? What are you doing about them?

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Karnal Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 95897 Gender:	Re: Free speech is under threat from Islam .. Reply #85 - Jan 16^th, 2016 at 3:21pm Soren wrote on Jan 16^th, 2016 at 3:09pm: If Muslims were vissibly and actively countering their jihadis the burqas and hijabs and niqabs would not be seen as Islamic provoications. Oh, really?
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polite_gandalf Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 20027 Canberra Gender:	Re: Free speech is under threat from Islam .. Reply #86 - Jan 16^th, 2016 at 3:25pm Karnal wrote on Jan 16^th, 2016 at 3:21pm: Soren wrote on Jan 16^th, 2016 at 3:09pm: If Muslims were vissibly and actively countering their jihadis the burqas and hijabs and niqabs would not be seen as Islamic provoications. Oh, really? Yeah I call BS.
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Soren

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Re: Free speech is under threat from Islam ..
Reply #87 - Jan 16^th, 2016 at 3:28pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Jan 16^th, 2016 at 3:25pm:

Karnal wrote on Jan 16^th, 2016 at 3:21pm:

Soren wrote on Jan 16^th, 2016 at 3:09pm:

If Muslims were vissibly and actively countering their jihadis the burqas and hijabs and niqabs would not be seen as Islamic provoications.

Oh, really?

Yeah I call BS.

What are the hijabis and niqabis doing about he jihadis? What are you doing about them?

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Karnal

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Re: Free speech is under threat from Islam ..
Reply #88 - Jan 16^th, 2016 at 3:38pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Jan 16^th, 2016 at 2:26pm:

freediver wrote on Jan 16^th, 2016 at 9:32am:

That's what my last post was about - you know, the one where you thought I was explaining whether women should be assaulted or not.

But you didn't say FD. Again, can you explain to me a situation where an assault on a woman isn't an attack on her freedom?

FD won't say. He'll spend weeks - months - nitpicking your posts (are you the flagwaver for wishy washy Western morals?) or banging on about the prevelance of Muslim underage marriage (one child bride). But he'll never defend the "freedoms" of the Muselman under the law or the constitution.

Then, ask if he agrees with all the racist posts calling for bannings and killings and nukings, and he mysteriously disappears.

FD's not racist. He just stands up for the freedoms of decent white people everywhere.

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polite_gandalf

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Re: Free speech is under threat from Islam ..
Reply #89 - Jan 16^th, 2016 at 3:42pm

Soren wrote on Jan 16^th, 2016 at 3:09pm:

As I said: you bang on about hijab and niqab removal after dismissing Muslim terrorism as a second order issue by comparison. But it's not.

Don't tell fibs S - I am on record here as saying very explicitly that attacks against hijabi and niqabi women in the west pale to the crimes in the name of Islam. Tell me, if we all agree that Islamic crime is outrageous and should be stopped, what exactly am I supposed to "bang on" about? When there is disagreement about our views, thats when I tend to "bang on". And in this case, its that you excuse certain acts of violence against women (regardless of how insignificant it is compared to other violence), while I abhore and condemn *ALL* acts of violence against innocents. Also, our agreement over the abhorance of Islamic violence doesn't say anything about the differences we have in our values. You apologising for certain violence against women, on the other hand, defines a very clear difference between the values you hold and the values our society holds. That is worth "banging on about" IMO.

Just tell me this S - would you at least concede that your view that when a niqabi who gets assaulted for what she wears is the "inconsiderate" one, who's choice of dress is akin to wearing a swastika - is contrary to the values of the society in which you live in? Answer me honestly please.

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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