Australian Politics Forum - moral equivalence of supporting ISIS vs US

freediver

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Re: moral equivalence of supporting ISIS vs US
Reply #120 - Jan 26^th, 2016 at 8:51am

polite_gandalf wrote on Jan 26^th, 2016 at 8:29am:

freediver wrote on Jan 26^th, 2016 at 8:15am:

Are you denying that you recently used quotes to deliberately misrepresent an exchange I had?

Yeah I guess I am - where did I misrepresent what you said?

Gandalf would you describe this as a deliberate misrepresentation?

polite_gandalf wrote on Jan 24^th, 2016 at 12:41am:

Seriously FD, actually think about this for once:

question:
Are we trying to establish democracy in Iraq?

answer:
No, FD, I think all "we’ve" ever tried to do is establish security for "our" friends’ business.

Please, go on and give us a jolly laugh and keep claiming the answer is not clear.

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Karnal Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 95916 Gender:	Re: moral equivalence of supporting ISIS vs US Reply #121 - Jan 26^th, 2016 at 11:38am FD, do you think we established democracy in Iraq? You haven’t said.
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polite_gandalf Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 20027 Canberra Gender:	Re: moral equivalence of supporting ISIS vs US Reply #122 - Jan 26^th, 2016 at 3:56pm freediver wrote on Jan 26^th, 2016 at 8:51am: Gandalf would you describe this as a deliberate misrepresentation? No FD its exactly what you asked - just without the confusing double negative you threw in.
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freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 49084 At my desk.	Re: moral equivalence of supporting ISIS vs US Reply #123 - Jan 26^th, 2016 at 5:31pm So it is not a misrepresentation to take an answer and pretend it was in response to a completely different question? Reversing the meaning of the question is really just 'simplifying' it?
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polite_gandalf

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Re: moral equivalence of supporting ISIS vs US
Reply #124 - Jan 26^th, 2016 at 5:46pm

Put it this way FD - I think the answer No, FD, I think all "we’ve" ever tried to do is establish security for "our" friends’ business. has the same clear meaning to both questions:

do you think we are not even trying to set up democracy in Iraq?

and

Are we trying to establish democracy in Iraq?

In hindsight do you agree it was a little bit confusing to pose a question that can be answered with a double negative?

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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freediver

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Re: moral equivalence of supporting ISIS vs US
Reply #125 - Jan 26^th, 2016 at 5:51pm

Quote:

In hindsight do you agree it was a little bit confusing

Yes Gandalf. That is why I asked Karnal for clarification. I'm glad you understand now. Do you agree it was stupid to go on and on for pages insisting it was not confusing at all rather than simply letting Karnal clarify? Do you agree that it was a misrepresentation to mix up the quotes to pretend the double negative wasn't there?

And finally, do you think we are trying to establish democracy in Iraq?

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polite_gandalf

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Re: moral equivalence of supporting ISIS vs US
Reply #126 - Jan 26^th, 2016 at 6:07pm

FD the wording of your question was confusing, we all agree on that. What wasn't confusing was a) the meaning of your question and b) Karnal's answer. Like I've said many times, saying "all "we’ve" ever tried to do is establish security for "our" friends’ business" is about the clearest answer possible to the question of whether or not "we" are trying to establish democracy.

You know that, I know that, and it was not misrepresenting you to take out the double negative in rephrasing your question. You also know that. So I'm not going to participate anymore in this wank-fest of yours.

Would you like to move on to the two questions of Karnal's that you continue to avoid?

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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freediver

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Re: moral equivalence of supporting ISIS vs US
Reply #127 - Jan 26^th, 2016 at 6:17pm

Quote:

FD the wording of your question was confusing, we all agree on that. What wasn't confusing was a) the meaning of your question and b) Karnal's answer. Like I've said many times, saying "all "we’ve" ever tried to do is establish security for "our" friends’ business" is about the clearest answer possible to the question of whether or not "we" are trying to establish democracy.

And yet despite both you and Karnal apparently sharing this view, neither of you are prepared to own it directly. You also insist that your avoidance of the question was a direct answer. Karnal's response only differed from yours in that he put a no in it. Other than that you have both been pretending I asked a completely different question.

Would it be fair to say that this is typical of Muslims?

Quote:

You know that, I know that, and it was not misrepresenting you to take out the double negative in rephrasing your question.

You have spent pages insisting there is no need for clarification, and backed that up by misquoting it. You misrepesented the exchange when you pretended karnal's answer was to the opposite question.

Quote:

So I'm not going to participate anymore in this play-fest of yours.

Does this mean this is yet another question you cannot possibly answer?

Are we trying to establish democracy in Iraq?

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People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.

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polite_gandalf Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 20027 Canberra Gender:	Re: moral equivalence of supporting ISIS vs US Reply #128 - Jan 26^th, 2016 at 6:54pm freediver wrote on Jan 26^th, 2016 at 6:17pm: Does this mean this is yet another question you cannot possibly answer? Are we trying to establish democracy in Iraq? Check again FD - I gave you an answer. I even clarified it for you.
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Karnal Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 95916 Gender:	Re: moral equivalence of supporting ISIS vs US Reply #129 - Jan 26^th, 2016 at 6:55pm FD, did "we" establish democracy in Iraq? I’m asking because I really want to answer the question properly this time.
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Soren

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Re: moral equivalence of supporting ISIS vs US
Reply #130 - Jan 26^th, 2016 at 7:05pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Jan 24^th, 2016 at 12:41am:

freediver wrote on Jan 23^rd, 2016 at 9:51pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on Jan 23^rd, 2016 at 7:52pm:

So let me get this straight FD, you still think that...

"No, FD, I think all "we’ve" ever tried to do is establish security for "our" friends’ business."

...could possibly mean "yes 'we' are trying to set up democracy" - and you need K to clarify that?

Did you take English at High School?

I think that when someone says something that is both stupid and grammatically inconsistent, it makes sense to ask them to clarify.

Seriously FD, actually think about this for once:

question:
Are we trying to establish democracy in Iraq?

answer:
No, FD, I think all "we’ve" ever tried to do is establish security for "our" friends’ business.

Please, go on and give us a jolly laugh and keep claiming the answer is not clear.

It is your and Karnal's really bad luck - and it shows up your argument as nothing more than shallow rancour (a very Muslim/Lefty trait) - that establishing democracy happens to be also the best way to establish security for ANY business, including friends', and enemies' business.

Or do you want foreign businesses kept out of 'Muslim lands'?? Or only non-Muslim businesses? And if so, what's wrong with reciprocating the Trump way and keeping Muslims out of the West?

The victimhood 'meme', as you like to label such things, is the stupidest and most contradictory and self-harming stance Muslims can take. And sure enough, you grab it with both hands.

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Redmond Neck Gold Member Offline OzPolitic Posts: 21631 ACT Gender:	Re: moral equivalence of supporting ISIS vs US Reply #131 - Jan 26^th, 2016 at 7:06pm "Im a tinkin there is some tricky fella behaviour goin on ere!" "By several tricky fellas!"
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polite_gandalf

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Re: moral equivalence of supporting ISIS vs US
Reply #132 - Jan 26^th, 2016 at 7:12pm

Soren wrote on Jan 26^th, 2016 at 7:05pm:

It is your and Karnal's really bad luck - and it shows up your argument as nothing more than shallow rancour (a very Muslim/Lefty trait) - that establishing democracy happens to be also the best way to establish security for ANY business, including friends', and enemies' business.

Really S? Apparently the US government has been getting that memo all these years. All this time they've been thinking a friendly dictator is best for business.

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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freediver

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Re: moral equivalence of supporting ISIS vs US
Reply #133 - Jan 26^th, 2016 at 7:14pm

Gandalf I think that both you and Karnal realise the absurdity of this position, which is why neither of you are prepared to directly own it. But you have both painted yourself into a corner where you cannot directly disown it either. This is why we now have the Karnal and Gandalf tapdancing show, where Gandalf feels compelled to selectively quote and then misquote Karnal's post to show that there is no need for him to make a direct statement, and then goes on to answer as many questions from me as he can, except the one I am actually asking.

Are we trying to establish democracy in Iraq?

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Karnal

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Re: moral equivalence of supporting ISIS vs US
Reply #134 - Jan 26^th, 2016 at 7:22pm

freediver wrote on Jan 26^th, 2016 at 7:14pm:

Gandalf I think that both you and Karnal realise the absurdity of this position, which is why neither of you are prepared to directly own it. But you have both painted yourself into a corner where you cannot directly disown it either. This is why we now have the Karnal and Gandalf tapdancing show, where Gandalf feels compelled to selectively quote and then misquote Karnal's post to show that there is no need for him to make a direct statement, and then goes on to answer as many questions from me as he can, except the one I am actually asking.

Are we trying to establish democracy in Iraq?

If you don’t want to answer, FD, just say so. We’re all friends here, you know.

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