Australian Politics Forum - moral equivalence of supporting ISIS vs US

polite_gandalf

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Re: moral equivalence of supporting ISIS vs US
Reply #180 - Feb 1^st, 2016 at 3:39pm

freediver wrote on Feb 1^st, 2016 at 12:30pm:

Is this what you meant by peacefully fighting tooth and nail? How were they forced Gandalf?

A violent insurgency against occupation is a lot harder to deal with than a mass peaceful uprising. Just ask the British in India. Violence against occupation can justifiably be met with a violent response, but what do you do with peaceful protesters? Shoot them? Not a good look. This is easily the greatest threat to any occupation, and the standard strategy in dealing with them has invariably been the same through the ages: provoke them into violence so you can get on with the far more palatable task of being violent against violent people. Its what Assad succeeded in doing in the Arab Spring, and its what Israel tries to do in the West Bank on a daily basis (you didn't know that there are daily peaceful protests against the occupation did you? - a testament to the success of Israeli propaganda). And its what the US tried to do in Iraq. They succeeded against the sunnis when they massacred about 20 peaceful protesters outside a school in Fallujah (remember the whole Fallujah thing? Well thats how it started). But the shiites by and large held fast - notwithstanding periodic flare-ups with the Mahdi Army. Hundreds of thousands of peaceful protestors marching through the streets on a regular basis - with the full blessing of their Ayatollah - simply can't be ignored. And you can't just shoot them all. Thats "how" they were forced.

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
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Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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polite_gandalf Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 20027 Canberra Gender:	Re: moral equivalence of supporting ISIS vs US Reply #181 - Feb 1^st, 2016 at 3:40pm bump
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Karnal

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Re: moral equivalence of supporting ISIS vs US
Reply #182 - Feb 1^st, 2016 at 3:49pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Feb 1^st, 2016 at 3:39pm:

freediver wrote on Feb 1^st, 2016 at 12:30pm:

Is this what you meant by peacefully fighting tooth and nail? How were they forced Gandalf?

A violent insurgency against occupation is a lot harder to deal with than a mass peaceful uprising. Just ask the British in India. Violence against occupation can justifiably be met with a violent response, but what do you do with peaceful protesters? Shoot them? Not a good look. This is easily the greatest threat to any occupation, and the standard strategy in dealing with them has invariably been the same through the ages: provoke them into violence so you can get on with the far more palatable task of being violent against violent people. Its what Assad succeeded in doing in the Arab Spring, and its what Israel tries to do in the West Bank on a daily basis (you didn't know that there are daily peaceful protests against the occupation did you? - a testament to the success of Israeli propaganda). And its what the US tried to do in Iraq. They succeeded against the sunnis when they massacred about 20 peaceful protesters outside a school in Fallujah (remember the whole Fallujah thing? Well thats how it started). But the shiites by and large held fast - notwithstanding periodic flare-ups with the Mahdi Army. Hundreds of thousands of peaceful protestors marching through the streets on a regular basis - with the full blessing of their Ayatollah - simply can't be ignored. And you can't just shoot them all. Thats "how" they were forced.

Thanks, G. Your response is extensive. FD can't possibly need any further clarification to base his answer on.

So now, without any further ado, FD's answer to the following: how did Uncle establish democracy in Iraq?

Over to you, FD.

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polite_gandalf Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 20027 Canberra Gender:	Re: moral equivalence of supporting ISIS vs US Reply #183 - Feb 1^st, 2016 at 5:32pm polite_gandalf wrote on Feb 1^st, 2016 at 3:39pm: A violent insurgency against occupation is a lot harder to deal with than a mass peaceful uprising. oops I meant the other way around I hope that is self evident from the rest of my post...
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Karnal

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Re: moral equivalence of supporting ISIS vs US
Reply #184 - Feb 1^st, 2016 at 6:07pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Feb 1^st, 2016 at 5:32pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on Feb 1^st, 2016 at 3:39pm:

A violent insurgency against occupation is a lot harder to deal with than a mass peaceful uprising.

oops I meant the other way around Grin

I hope that is self evident from the rest of my post...

We all knew what you meant, G.

Except for one poster who will ask you to clarify for the next 10 pages.

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freediver

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Re: moral equivalence of supporting ISIS vs US
Reply #185 - Feb 1^st, 2016 at 6:47pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Feb 1^st, 2016 at 3:39pm:

freediver wrote on Feb 1^st, 2016 at 12:30pm:

Is this what you meant by peacefully fighting tooth and nail? How were they forced Gandalf?

A violent insurgency against occupation is a lot harder to deal with than a mass peaceful uprising. Just ask the British in India. Violence against occupation can justifiably be met with a violent response, but what do you do with peaceful protesters? Shoot them? Not a good look. This is easily the greatest threat to any occupation, and the standard strategy in dealing with them has invariably been the same through the ages: provoke them into violence so you can get on with the far more palatable task of being violent against violent people. Its what Assad succeeded in doing in the Arab Spring, and its what Israel tries to do in the West Bank on a daily basis (you didn't know that there are daily peaceful protests against the occupation did you? - a testament to the success of Israeli propaganda). And its what the US tried to do in Iraq. They succeeded against the sunnis when they massacred about 20 peaceful protesters outside a school in Fallujah (remember the whole Fallujah thing? Well thats how it started). But the shiites by and large held fast - notwithstanding periodic flare-ups with the Mahdi Army. Hundreds of thousands of peaceful protestors marching through the streets on a regular basis - with the full blessing of their Ayatollah - simply can't be ignored. And you can't just shoot them all. Thats "how" they were forced.

Forced to do what? What did they achieve that the US was fighting tooth and nail to prevent?

You still are not actually saying anything Gandalf. You are just using up more words to say nothing.

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People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.

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Karnal Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 95911 Gender:	Re: moral equivalence of supporting ISIS vs US Reply #186 - Feb 1^st, 2016 at 7:16pm Would you care to say something, FD? We’re waiting.
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Karnal Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 95911 Gender:	Re: moral equivalence of supporting ISIS vs US Reply #187 - Feb 1^st, 2016 at 7:23pm There’s no need to clarify, G. You’ve only just written a longer - and more succinct - post than I’ve seen from FD since he discovered questions. FD’s just stalling.
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polite_gandalf Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 20027 Canberra Gender:	Re: moral equivalence of supporting ISIS vs US Reply #188 - Feb 2^nd, 2016 at 9:09am freediver wrote on Feb 1^st, 2016 at 6:47pm: Forced to do what? abandon their attempts to subvert democracy - to some degree at least.
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Karnal

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Re: moral equivalence of supporting ISIS vs US
Reply #189 - Feb 2^nd, 2016 at 10:48am

G, you're saying that Uncle had no intention of bringing democracy to Iraq. FD is saying they did. This would be an interesting debate if the affirmative would care to offer an opinion.

So far, you've shown how Uncle did everything in his power to prevent democracy in Iraq. Without any alternative facts or hypothesis, your argument prevails. Uncle did not bring democracy to Iraq, and nor did he have any intention of doing so. Even the old boy concedes that Uncle did no such thing.

Your facts stand. We're all open to reviewing your position if we receive any alternative facts, but to date, they have been met with a resounding silence. Your facts make it perfectly clear that Uncle did not bring democracy to Iraq.

But I'm curious. With facts such as these, how can anyone argue that Uncle did bring democracy to Iraq? I'll put this question to FD, who must have missed it.

FD, how did Uncle bring democracy to Iraq?

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freediver

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Re: moral equivalence of supporting ISIS vs US
Reply #190 - Feb 2^nd, 2016 at 12:20pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Feb 2^nd, 2016 at 9:09am:

freediver wrote on Feb 1^st, 2016 at 6:47pm:

Forced to do what?

abandon their attempts to subvert democracy - to some degree at least.

How were they trying to subvert democracy? So far the only details you have given were on their opposition to local council elections prior to federal ones, and some kind of facilitation of previously exiled people as candidates.

Is that the extent of their "tooth and nail" opposition?

Which of these efforts were they forced to abandon, and how did the Shites force them?

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People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.

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Karnal

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Re: moral equivalence of supporting ISIS vs US
Reply #191 - Feb 2^nd, 2016 at 1:36pm

freediver wrote on Feb 2^nd, 2016 at 12:20pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on Feb 2^nd, 2016 at 9:09am:

freediver wrote on Feb 1^st, 2016 at 6:47pm:

Forced to do what?

abandon their attempts to subvert democracy - to some degree at least.

How were they trying to subvert democracy?

He's just told you, FD. How were they trying to create democracy?

I can't find any evidence of this anywhere.

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polite_gandalf

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Re: moral equivalence of supporting ISIS vs US
Reply #192 - Feb 2^nd, 2016 at 2:08pm

freediver wrote on Feb 2^nd, 2016 at 12:20pm:

How were they trying to subvert democracy? So far the only details you have given were on their opposition to local council elections prior to federal ones, and some kind of facilitation of previously exiled people as candidates.

Thats pretty damning evidence as far as I can see - if you want to reduce elections to a mere "show trial" of handpicked occupier-friendly candidates (ie subverting democracy), then the first things you do is a) disallow the people to democratically choose their own candidates and b) ensure that the only candidates are the ones you handpick yourself.

As for all the other aspects of democracy - the democratic institutions and freedoms granted to citizens, since they obviously didn't exist under Saddam, its really up to you to demonstrate that the US established them for the Iraqi people - that is if you are still maintaining that the US "established" democracy in Iraq. But who knows if you are? You continue to refuse to answer K's question on the matter.

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
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Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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freediver

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Re: moral equivalence of supporting ISIS vs US
Reply #193 - Feb 2^nd, 2016 at 6:58pm

Quote:

Thats pretty damning evidence as far as I can see - if you want to reduce elections to a mere "show trial" of handpicked occupier-friendly candidates (ie subverting democracy), then the first things you do is a) disallow the people to democratically choose their own candidates and b) ensure that the only candidates are the ones you handpick yourself.

Are you suggesting they should have had elections to see who could be candidates for the election?

Quote:

As for all the other aspects of democracy - the democratic institutions and freedoms granted to citizens, since they obviously didn't exist under Saddam, its really up to you to demonstrate that the US established them for the Iraqi people

You claimed that the US fought tooth and nail against democracy. Prove it. If you want to get into the details of whether there were sufficient freedoms for democracy to function properly then I am happy to discuss that, but there is not much point while you maintain such a ludicrous position.

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People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.

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Aussie

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Re: moral equivalence of supporting ISIS vs US
Reply #194 - Feb 2^nd, 2016 at 8:30pm

freediver wrote on Feb 2^nd, 2016 at 6:58pm:

Quote:

Thats pretty damning evidence as far as I can see - if you want to reduce elections to a mere "show trial" of handpicked occupier-friendly candidates (ie subverting democracy), then the first things you do is a) disallow the people to democratically choose their own candidates and b) ensure that the only candidates are the ones you handpick yourself.

Are you suggesting they should have had elections to see who could be candidates for the election?

Quote:

As for all the other aspects of democracy - the democratic institutions and freedoms granted to citizens, since they obviously didn't exist under Saddam, its really up to you to demonstrate that the US established them for the Iraqi people

You claimed that the US fought tooth and nail against democracy. Prove it. If you want to get into the details of whether there were sufficient freedoms for democracy to function properly then I am happy to discuss that, but there is not much point while you maintain such a ludicrous position.

Has anyone here evah seen FD post what his position is? Evah?

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